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[aaniadyen]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I think it's funny that people are still arguing about a redesign of Flemeth when she's a freakin' Fade spirit that posesses different bodies, one of which most PCs likely killed in DA:O. She got a new body from a mage that didn't have control of their grasp on the Fade, it's that easy to explain?

Treating your own speculation like it's confirmed fact is dumb.

Hey I'm just going by the game lore in DA:O. What are you going by? And don't go around calling people dumb and jumping to your own assumptions, you'll make more friends in life by being nice.

Wasn't calling you dumb, was saying it's stupid to take speculation as fact. I didn't realize there was anything in-game that said Flemeth was a fade spirit posessing a human body.

Edit: Just read her codex entry again, now I can see what you mean. Granted that entry may or may not be accurate as Morrigan said that story was actually false. I thought it was just some speculation you came up with and were asserting on people. Sorry for jumping to that conclusion, just iritable because I woke up this morning.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Raycer X]

Wow, that third image looks like Isabela was hit with the ugly stick, the ugly bat, and the ugly club all at once. (I don't think I'll have a saved playthrough where she has been romanced... Considering how sleeping with her is like sleeping with all the men she slept with before.)

[aaniadyen]

Raycer X wrote...

Wow, that third image looks like Isabela was hit with the ugly stick, the ugly bat, and the ugly club all at once. (I don't think I'll have a saved playthrough where she has been romanced... Considering how sleeping with her is like sleeping with all the men she slept with before.)

Yeah, it's been said the mouth was buggy in that picture. She looks better in other shots because the mouth is much bigger and makes the chin seem less manish.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:51 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Maconbar wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

She explained the concept of how the magic functions. The function of the magic does not allow for these types of changes. As such Flemeth would be ruled by the same magic laws that Morrigan would be. Makes perfect sense. What makes Flemeth above these laws?

The fact that she taught them to Morrigan?

Flemeth taught her all that Morrigan knows, not all that Flemeth knows.

That is a pretty good point. Still. Just chaulking the character redesign up to "Oh, she's a shapeshifter, she can look however she wants" is idiotic especially when confronted with an entire world aesthetic overhall. The Darkspawn look different, Isabela looks different, Qunari look different.... they aren't shapeshifters though....

Except that D. Gaider has said that Flemeth had her reasons for appearing the way she did to the Warden.

Yeah... because Flemeth isn't human. She chose to appear as human... Both models are old women... they just look slightly different. It is an aesthetic choice... a purposeful change that is not backed by story... it doesn't have to be. It isn't necessary for it to be. The change to Flemeth and the change to Isabela came from the exact same place.... its just that no one can rationalize the change in Isabela as easily so they get all up in arms about it.

Then you are choosing to disregard D. Gaider when he indicated that Flemeth's different appearances are story-driven.

You know Gaider screws with us right? Not everything he says on these forums is irrefutable truth. I read that post... and it sounded more to me like a joke than an actual claim on lore.

[The Lesser Evil]

aaniadyen wrote...

Yeah, it's been said the mouth was buggy in that picture. She looks better in other shots because the mouth is much bigger and makes the chin seem less manish.

She looks great in that shot. I noticed that in the trailer, how much better she looked in that particular shot than she did in any of the others. She's like... a take-no-prisoners, yummalicious dark-chocolate Rivani sex godess-slash-death-queen. I don't care if others 'tapped that' with their Warden and up to two others, she was nowhere near that hot in Denerim.

[ShrinkingFish]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Yeah, it's been said the mouth was buggy in that picture. She looks better in other shots because the mouth is much bigger and makes the chin seem less manish.

She looks great in that shot. I noticed that in the trailer, how much better she looked in that particular shot than she did in any of the others. She's like... a take-no-prisoners, yummalicious dark-chocolate Rivani sex godess-slash-death-queen. I don't care if others 'tapped that' with their Warden and up to two others, she was nowhere near that hot in Denerim.

Agreed. She's definitely smexy.

[HighMoon]

I think it's just that many of the DA2 characters have an unfortunate penchant for being photographed on unflattering angles.

[mr_luga]

That "portrait" of her with the DA2 logo behind she looks hot.



The picture that everyone pass around that shows the darker skintone and piercing, she looks like a guy(or that other name that's offensive, and can't think of a better word of, sorry)



So.. Until I get to see her in game and in better motion instead of a few flashes in an actiony EA ish trailer, im going to reserve judgement I think.



But try putting stubble on that picture, you'd immediatly think "Guy" not "Woman with beard"

[ald0s]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

She looks great in that shot. I noticed that in the trailer, how much better she looked in that particular shot than she did in any of the others. She's like... a take-no-prisoners, yummalicious dark-chocolate Rivani sex godess-slash-death-queen. I don't care if others 'tapped that' with their Warden and up to two others, she was nowhere near that hot in Denerim.

agreed, but i think she will still get some minor tweeks until release nothing major. the fact that the mouth is too small in the other screens is just a smal issue in my opinion and will probaly adressed (crosses fingers)

Modifié par ald0s, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:13 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Golden-Rose wrote...

I think it's just that many of the DA2 characters have an unfortunate penchant for being photographed on unflattering angles.

I agree. I reserve judgement until I see them in action.

Except for finding Isabela sexy... I make that judgement left and right. I don't care if some of her pics give her a roundish chin.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Yes, she does look alot better in the knife-throwing scene.

[SirOccam]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I think it's funny that people are still arguing about a redesign of Flemeth when she's a freakin' Fade spirit that posesses different bodies, one of which most PCs likely killed in DA:O. She got a new body from a mage that didn't have control of their grasp on the Fade, it's that easy to explain?

Actually it doesn't make sense for Flemeth to have a new body at the time Hawke and co. meet her. Consider the following proof:

1. In DAO, you can't kill Flemeth until you have Morrigan's sidequest
2. In DAO, you get Morrigan's sidequest after giving her the Black Grimoire found in Irving's quarters in the Mage Tower.
3. Once you pass the big double doors in the Mage Tower, you are locked in until you complete it.
4. By the time you complete any of the four main quests (Redcliffe, the Dalish, Orzammar, the Circle), Lothering is destroyed.
5. By 1, 2 and 3, we can say that you have to complete the Mage Tower quest before you can kill Flemeth.
6. By 4 and 5, then, we can conclude that Lothering is destroyed before you can kill Flemeth.

Considering that it is just after the destruction of Lothering when Hawke and family meet her, it would appear that she has not yet had a need for a new body.

And finally, the devs have mentioned that Flemeth appeared the way she did in DAO for a reason. Who's to say that's her true form? For all we know, maybe the DA2 version is.

[TheChris92]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

TMcGee92127 wrote...

However, you have pulled only one character from DAO into DA2, one that everyone knows well, and completely changed it..

Have you forgotten about Flemeth?

Everyone forgot about Flemeth...

If Alistair is gonna appear in the game, like his voice actor Steve Valentine has hinted, then we'll probably get a thread similar to something like this as well. 

Modifié par TheChris92, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:29 .

[Apollo Starflare]

What was it Morrigan said about shapeshifting into human form again? I have no idea if it's possible but I've always speculated that Flemeth might have mastered shapeshifting to the point she can do it.

Edit: As for there not being enough characters from Origins in DA2... Wow bit early to call dontcha think? The devs have said there are a fair few cameos and possibly more in the game so I'm not worried. Not to mention if we already had confirmation of x amount of DAO characters appearing, some in the party, then I'm sure a vocal group would be complaining that they aren't changing enough! 

Modifié par Apollo Starflare, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:35 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

SirOccam wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I think it's funny that people are still arguing about a redesign of Flemeth when she's a freakin' Fade spirit that posesses different bodies, one of which most PCs likely killed in DA:O. She got a new body from a mage that didn't have control of their grasp on the Fade, it's that easy to explain?

Actually it doesn't make sense for Flemeth to have a new body at the time Hawke and co. meet her. Consider the following proof:

1. In DAO, you can't kill Flemeth until you have Morrigan's sidequest
2. In DAO, you get Morrigan's sidequest after giving her the Black Grimoire found in Irving's quarters in the Mage Tower.
3. Once you pass the big double doors in the Mage Tower, you are locked in until you complete it.
4. By the time you complete any of the four main quests (Redcliffe, the Dalish, Orzammar, the Circle), Lothering is destroyed.
5. By 1, 2 and 3, we can say that you have to complete the Mage Tower quest before you can kill Flemeth.
6. By 4 and 5, then, we can conclude that Lothering is destroyed before you can kill Flemeth.

Considering that it is just after the destruction of Lothering when Hawke and family meet her, it would appear that she has not yet had a need for a new body.

And finally, the devs have mentioned that Flemeth appeared the way she did in DAO for a reason. Who's to say that's her true form? For all we know, maybe the DA2 version is.

Interesting, does Flemeth appear in her new form in Lothering at the time of the story of DA:O? It could be an illusion of some sort. Plus the plot order of our PCs in DA:O likely wouldn't be able to be regarded as canon in DA 2. She could of appeared in her new body in Lothering after a warden had slain her. How long does it take an abomination to posess a new body (if Flemeth is an abomination)? Not terribly long if the spirit is powerful enough it seems. Connor, Teagan or the mages in the Circle tower seemed to be posessed in a variety of different speeds by Fade demons.

[aaniadyen]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I think it's funny that people are still arguing about a redesign of Flemeth when she's a freakin' Fade spirit that posesses different bodies, one of which most PCs likely killed in DA:O. She got a new body from a mage that didn't have control of their grasp on the Fade, it's that easy to explain?

Actually it doesn't make sense for Flemeth to have a new body at the time Hawke and co. meet her. Consider the following proof:

1. In DAO, you can't kill Flemeth until you have Morrigan's sidequest
2. In DAO, you get Morrigan's sidequest after giving her the Black Grimoire found in Irving's quarters in the Mage Tower.
3. Once you pass the big double doors in the Mage Tower, you are locked in until you complete it.
4. By the time you complete any of the four main quests (Redcliffe, the Dalish, Orzammar, the Circle), Lothering is destroyed.
5. By 1, 2 and 3, we can say that you have to complete the Mage Tower quest before you can kill Flemeth.
6. By 4 and 5, then, we can conclude that Lothering is destroyed before you can kill Flemeth.

Considering that it is just after the destruction of Lothering when Hawke and family meet her, it would appear that she has not yet had a need for a new body.

And finally, the devs have mentioned that Flemeth appeared the way she did in DAO for a reason. Who's to say that's her true form? For all we know, maybe the DA2 version is.

Interesting, does Flemeth appear in her new form in Lothering at the time of the story of DA:O? It could be an illusion of some sort. Plus the plot order of our PCs in DA:O likely wouldn't be able to be regarded as canon in DA 2. She could of appeared in her new body in Lothering after a warden had slain her. How long does it take an abomination to posess a new body (if Flemeth is an abomination)? Not terribly long if the spirit is powerful enough it seems. Connor, Teagan or the mages in the Circle tower seemed to be posessed in a variety of different speeds by Fade demons.

Well, I'd guess Lothering is destroyed while you're working on the first treaty in Origins. We can assume Hawke flees Lothering while it is being attacked by the appearance of Darkspawn in the beginning of the game. Maybe Flemeth was appearing to Hawke while the warden was busy with the first treaty? It's not as though traveling and getting the treaties is a small event. You need to take into account travel time (2 weeks, 4 days minimum from Orzammar to the Circle tower. That's a pretty long time.) Plus the time it takes to do all the fighting, which would also take at least a few days. I think it'd be easy for her to transform, and appear to Hawke in Lothering in that time, but...the question is why she would want to.

[kingjezza]

Just figured out who she reminds me of, Nadia from Big Brother (the Brits should know)!

http://www.virginmed...dia-290x400.jpg
http://www.gm.tv/med.../i/nadia_la.jpg

Modifié par kingjezza, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:53 .

[turian councilor Knockout]

Its a good thing that she will have a new VA because in my opinion Mika Simmons voice grew annoying very fast (even more important now when she´s a companion).

[aaniadyen]

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Its a good thing that she will have a new VA because in my opinion Mika Simmons voice grew annoying very fast (even more important now when she´s a companion).

It's also been said by a dev that they wanted a new VA because Isa's old VA was the same they used for Anora. They didn't want major characters from both games sounding the exact same way. It was easy enough not to notice in Origins because Isa didn't have very much dialogue, and it was used in a very different context. There wouldn't be much getting around this one though.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:02 .

[The Lesser Evil]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

What was it Morrigan said about shapeshifting into human form again? I have no idea if it's possible but I've always speculated that Flemeth might have mastered shapeshifting to the point she can do it.

Morrigan's response to the question whether she could change into other human forms as well was this:

"The form of an animal is different from my own. One may study the creature, learn to move as it does, think as it does.
In time, this allows one to become as it is. I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they
are, I learn nothing. So the answer is no, my human form is the only one I possess."

Never does she say she cannot learn how to do it, just that she doesn't see the point because she gains nothing by changing into other human forms.

Modifié par The Lesser Evil, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:06 .

[turian councilor Knockout]

aaniadyen wrote...

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Its a good thing that she will have a new VA because in my opinion Mika Simmons voice grew annoying very fast (even more important now when she´s a companion).

It's also been said by a dev that they wanted a new VA because Isa's old VA was the same they used for Anora. They didn't want major characters from both games sounding the exact same way. It was easy enough not to notice in Origins because Isa didn't have very much dialogue, and it was used in a very different context. There wouldn't be much getting around this one though.

Thanks, i didnt know that it was because of that but it´s good that everything is for the best.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

aaniadyen wrote...


Well, I'd guess Lothering is destroyed while you're working on the first treaty in Origins. We can assume Hawke flees Lothering while it is being attacked by the appearance of Darkspawn in the beginning of the game. Maybe Flemeth was appearing to Hawke while the warden was busy with the first treaty? It's not as though traveling and getting the treaties is a small event. You need to take into account travel time (2 weeks, 4 days minimum from Orzammar to the Circle tower. That's a pretty long time.) Plus the time it takes to do all the fighting, which would also take at least a few days. I think it'd be easy for her to transform, and appear to Hawke in Lothering in that time, but...the question is why she would want to.

That leaves alot of space in time though between disembarking to have the first treaty honored and then the last one. It could be anywhere between a week to a couple of months to get the black grimoire. Doing the Circle quest could take a few days of travel and a night to storm the tower whereas it would take far longer to go through the mountains to Orzammar, earn the trust of the nobility then delve into the Deep Roads which are described as being vast.

Here is where the game is very contradictory, in it's timeline. How can the destruction of Lothering occur at the end of a short quest or a long quest? It isn't destroyed until you finish the quest objective of selecting a ruler for Orzammar from the two candidates. So the destruction of Lothering can happen in any amount of time and in any amount of conditions. If the town was only destroyed after retrieving the Black Grimoire in the mage tower and not from completeing the first treaty in any location, then I would say a point could be made for Flemeth needing to appear far more similar in DA 2. But, as it stands, any treaty being completed leads to the destruction of Lothering so the town's destruction is just atmosphere.

This is why I am sticking to my theory that Flemeth's new look is a new (posessed or otherwise) body.  It's easier to explain, afterall, she's a legendary wizard! Maybe her new look came from a trip to Liselle in Denerim's market where she bought some Orlesian cosmetics?

[aaniadyen]

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Its a good thing that she will have a new VA because in my opinion Mika Simmons voice grew annoying very fast (even more important now when she´s a companion).

It's also been said by a dev that they wanted a new VA because Isa's old VA was the same they used for Anora. They didn't want major characters from both games sounding the exact same way. It was easy enough not to notice in Origins because Isa didn't have very much dialogue, and it was used in a very different context. There wouldn't be much getting around this one though.

Thanks, i didnt know that it was because of that but it´s good that everything is for the best.

Yeah, Gaider said the new VA doesn't sound too different from theo ld one anyway, so it won't be too much of a shock to hear her. I just hope it's not similar in the wrong way. ><

[aaniadyen]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...
That leaves alot of space in time though between disembarking to have the first treaty honored and then the last one. It could be anywhere between a week to a couple of months to get the black grimoire. Doing the Circle quest could take a few days of travel and a night to storm the tower whereas it would take far longer to go through the mountains to Orzammar, earn the trust of the nobility then delve into the Deep Roads which are described as being vast.

Here is where the game is very contradictory, in it's timeline. How can the destruction of Lothering occur at the end of a short quest or a long quest? It isn't destroyed until you finish the quest objective of selecting a ruler for Orzammar from the two candidates. So the destruction of Lothering can happen in any amount of time and in any amount of conditions. If the town was only destroyed after retrieving the Black Grimoire in the mage tower and not from completeing the first treaty in any location, then I would say a point could be made for Flemeth needing to appear far more similar in DA 2. But, as it stands, any treaty being completed leads to the destruction of Lothering so the town's destruction is just atmosphere.

This is why I am sticking to my theory that Flemeth's new look is a new (posessed or otherwise) body.  It's easier to explain, afterall, she's a legendary wizard! Maybe her new look came from a trip to Liselle in Denerim's market where she bought some Orlesian cosmetics?

That is a fair point. Some of the treaties take much longer than others (Orzammar would seem to even take a good 6+ months). You could say that Lothering gets destroyed in a short ammount of time, so really even if you do the shortest treaty quest, it still will have been destroyed. I think that's looking too much into it though. I'm sure it either doesn't matter in DA 2, or they have an established canon on what happened. I think DA 2 will be better with continuity, because it will be a framed-narrative style with the goal being learning exactly what happened. Either way, I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. It's not like sitting here speculation will give us any answers =P

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

There's always going to be a few people that complain, but judging from the overall response (and filtering out the ones that post on the subject over and over again) I'd say the response to Isabela has been quite positive.

If i may suggest something... could you check the threads discussing individual characters revealed so far, but instead of the yay/nay tally focus on whether there's certain specific features of these characters that get mentioned more often than others?

I'd guesstimate that you're bound to notice a common theme, and that's people pointing out these characters quite universally display exaggerated chins/jaws (which is a side effect of their noses being disproportionally small, and as result the lips being placed too high up, leaving too large area underneath)

Now, you'd likely point out that it's not something universally disliked, and quite a few people just opt to rib the characters for that feature in good-natured manner, some others also happen to like it. However, my question is this -- have you actually designed all these characters with this exact reaction in mind? In other words, was it intended to draw the players' attention to this particular detail?

Now, whether that's actually intended, a followup question arises -- do you consider it a positive that such generally minor and unimportant feature can apparently --due to being an oddity-- draw disproportionate amount of attention from the viewers? I mean, wouldn't you rather that attention to be given to the rest of your work which actually deserves it, and that is the world and character designs on the whole? As such, wouldn't the game be actually better off if these rough edges were polished to remove or at least reduce the uncanny valley reaction from people who get to see your work for the first time?

Personally, I think she looks great

With all due respect, have you considered that your opinion can be at this point skewed by prolonged exposure to these designs? You're a writer so i'm sure you're intimately familiar with this effect -- after spending long hours working with something, we grow to tune out details which are somewhat off, to the point where we no longer notice them. But for a fresh viewer these details stand out so much, it can leave them with mouth agape and scratching their head asking "how could anyone not see it? It's so obvious".

I guess we could go for the blandly attractive cover girl as the ideal, sure, but we'd rather not-- and that wouldn't stop the nit-picking anyhow, so why bother?

That is a curious argument, considering pretty much all of your game is otherwise built in way to make it attractive to as large group of potential customers if possible. You could just as well go for psychedelic textures, poorly optimized game engine, off-key music and VA performance that'd grate on the ears, since someone is going to nitpick these things anyhow so why bother indeed? And yet you do, don't you? So why an exception here?

Note, i think this argument of yours is also posed in loaded manner -- why does it have to be "blandly attractive" cover girl as the ideal, as opposed to it being characters (of both genders) who are simply proportional enough not to trigger the sense something is off about them in the viewer? Do you think characters can't be just "attractive" if they look like a normal human being, without unnaturaly exaggerated features?

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:52 .