170 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

All right. I hear people say this often in response to vocal ME2 criticism. "If you didn't like it, don't play it."

I’d honestly like to have a reasonable discussion about why. And I want to know: how seriously does BioWare and the Mass Effect community take those people who were really disappointed with ME2?

Pacifien has agreed to give this thread a short life, so let's make it good:

Do we truly perceive everyone who criticizes the game as a hater?

Is BioWare going to let sales results justify its decisions? Or does it actually listen to the disappointment threads?

My disappointment seems to clash with your game reviews, BioWare. Who do you listen to?

Can every criticism be tossed up to ME1 nostalgia? Are the days of constructive criticism gone?

Where do you draw the line between a person with a credible complaint and someone who’s just a game basher,
BioWare? And what do you think of all these complaints?

And most importantly, how could I be disappointed if I didn’t love the series?

Why do people say “If you didn’t like it, don’t play it”?

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Kasen]

I think much of the criticism is well deserved, there are quite a few plot points that are head scratchers, though overall I think the gameplay is very good.

Unfortunately, there are some posts around here that are chock full of criticisms that I consider to be over the top and far from constructive. I don't recall that I've ever said "If you don't like it, don't play it" but I can see where some people who did enjoy the game are frustrated at the constant nitpicking and attempts to destroy the plot, claiming any minor inconsistency is an immersion killing plothole. There's just a whole lot of hate around here that is unjustified.

Edited for spelling and clarity (wow that read poorly when I reread it).

Modifié par Kasen13, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Therion942]

BioWare exists to make money and we live in an age where you can very easily get away with wholly alienating your core audience so long as you add enough gimmicks and shiny features to attract more than what you lost. I doubt they really care what anyone who is disappointed says. Is everyone who is disappointed a hater? No, that's just a defense mechanism thought up by people who ride the BioWare defense force and cannot aptly call BioWare out on their failings, or are satisfied with mediocrity because "Everything new must be better, all change is good"

I do not hate the game in any way, shape, or form, I bought the thing, I played the thing 6 times. But I'm not about to give a no criticism pass just because I enjoyed myself along the way - many others will.

[AntiChri5]

There are some people who never ever ever say anythin positive at all, and those i have dismissed as haters.

I generally stop listening to anyone who has only good or bad to say about either ME 1 or 2. They both have their strengths, and they both have their flaws.

[Legbiter]

*shrug*

You don't like it well...then you don't like it I guess. Go do something different then. Problem solved.

Modifié par Legbiter, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Zall]

Small question, do Bioware employees actually respond on the forums? I have no doubt that they keep track of the criticism threads, but there is no way of telling how much it will influence their decisions.



Besides, don't get surprised when the critics end up as the "bad" guys. Many people enjoy the game and get a bit annoyed when someone keep telling them, that ME2 is a horrible and awful game compared to ME1. It doesn't even matter how well justified and gentle your argumentation is.

[Legbiter]

Zall wrote...

Small question, do Bioware employees actually respond on the forums?

Yes. Some do.

[Phaedon]

Yes, if someone doesn't provide constructive criticism, they are just a hater and they don't have a valid opinion.



But how do you define constructive criticism exactly ? I don't think that opinions from people who post 'Mass Effect 2's story sucked' or 'retcon nao ' are too constructive. It's funny how in the internet, you can be as extreme as you wish, without someone telling you 'Hey, that's wrong. Have you played any games recently ?'

[TheMiroHa]

Kasen13 wrote...

I think much of the criticism is well deserved, there are quite a few plot points that are head scratchers, though overall I think the gameplay is very good.
Unfortunately, there are some posts around here that are chalk full of criticisms that I consider to be over the top and far from constructive. I don't recall that I've ever said "If you don't like it, don't play it" but I can see where some people who did enjoy the game are frustrated at the constant nitpicking and attempts to destroy the plot, claiming any minor inconsistency is an immersion killing plothole.

Edited for spelling.

^ This is the reason why I've used "If you didn't like it, don't play it.". In some situations people's criticism of ME2 crosses the line where it just sounds like they want to prove that the game was in every way worse than the first one. I respect other people's opinions but IMO that's just over the top.

[Zulu_DFA]

I hate ME2, and I'm proud of it.

[Nightwriter]

Phaedon wrote...

Yes, if someone doesn't provide constructive criticism, they are just a hater and they don't have a valid opinion.

But how do you define constructive criticism exactly ? I don't think that opinions from people who post 'Mass Effect 2's story sucked' or 'retcon nao ' are too constructive. It's funny how in the internet, you can be as extreme as you wish, without someone telling you 'Hey, that's wrong. Have you played any games recently ?'

Look at the constructive criticisms BioWare took to heart from ME1.

What are the first things that pop into your head? The elevators... and the mako. Some gameplay mechanics comments. They called that constructive criticism, and they changed it.

So does this mean only comments on gameplay mechanics count as constructive criticism? What about story? Did we ever even remark on ME1's story? Do they even keep an ear out for remarks on story?

Regardless, I would define constructive criticism as any statement that says, "Hey, this would be better if you did this."

Rather than, "Hey, this sucked in every way."

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:37 .

[jlb524]

I liked ME2, especially the combat improvements.



I'm still disappointed due to story/plot structure, both of which I found pretty terrible for a BioWare game.



I've only every voiced dislike for this specific aspect of the game, but have been lumped into an 'ME2 hater' crowd before. Just because I think the story sucks, I mustn't like anything else. No.

[Dean_the_Young]

Did Bioware actually read the forums, look at what X number of posters cried about the plot hole of the Geth ship on Liara's mission didn't stay and fight off the Normandy/just blow you up, how Benezia was so incompetent when she and Sovereign didn't have the Neutron Purge set to go off when Shepard beat her, how much nannying the Alliance needed from you, etc. etc. etc., and take constructive criticism out of it?



Or did they have their own inner-review, look to a select few points provided by paid people and 'professional' reviewers and gaming magazines, and remain largely irrelevant to the posters?

[CroGamer002]

Most people who said ME2 game is bad GAME is because PLOT is much weaker from ME1 which is just stupid.



GAME>PLOT

[Therion942]

Mesina2 wrote...

Most people who said ME2 game is bad GAME is because PLOT is much weaker from ME1 which is just stupid.

GAME>PLOT

My enjoyment of an RPG of which the story is generally the primary focus is directly correlated to how coherent the PLOT is.

COHERENCY>GAME

If I wanted a game that focused all its efforts on the gameplay, I'd be playing CPMA or CSS.

[wizardryforever]

Nice topic, too bad it will probably devolve into flame wars and general derailment, like mine was.  Anyway, I have no problem with constructive criticism.  The problem is that so much of the criticism is not constructive.  It does not suggest how it could have been done, all it does is point out flaws.  The worst of it is the kind that points out flaws, then condescendingly tells you that if you don't agree, you're just stupid.  Bioware needs to take forum posts with a grain of salt, since we do not represent a very good sampling of players.  Relying on statistics is safer, though that too can go wrong.

I don't feel that everyone who criticizes the game is a "hater," but they are definitely around, and months after they have stopped playing the game.  Sometimes they say that they will never play it again, and yet they are still here.  Why?

People's opinion of games can change based on many things, consciously or subconsciously.  Nostalgia and its opposite: novelty, can greatly color someone's opinion, and the sooner people realize why they feel the way they do, the more balanced their opinion will likely be.  People also need to keep in mind that Bioware is not perfect; they make mistakes just like anyone else, and Mass Effect is not ruined forever because the story in ME2 wasn't as strong.

[jlb524]

Mesina2 wrote...

Most people who said ME2 game is bad GAME is because PLOT is much weaker from ME1 which is just stupid.

GAME>PLOT

Yah, in your opinion.

I hold the opposite view.

[CroGamer002]

Therion942 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Most people who said ME2 game is bad GAME is because PLOT is much weaker from ME1 which is just stupid.

GAME>PLOT

My enjoyment of an RPG of which the story is generally the primary focus is directly correlated to how coherent the PLOT is.

COHERENCY>GAME

If I wanted a game that focused all its efforts on the gameplay, I'd be playing CPMA or CSS.

Yes, in RPG's plot is very important but gameplay is always first priority in any game genre.

[dgumb]

I only consider someone a hater if every post of I see of theirs is negative about ME1/ME2. Also, as some have pointed out, some of the criticism is just so over the top, or it's reaction is, that it's hard to take seriously sometimes.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Whether or not each poster is here to offer something constructive or just to... complain about the game as much as they can for whatever reason, must be judged on a case-by-case basis.

Nightwriter, I would not call you a "hater" of ME2.

I have my complaints, but I wouldn't consider myself a "hater" -- I end up defending the game or poking holes in certain poster's constant refrains of goofball criticisms ("This game sucks, Shephard doesn't suffer and emote and gaze at his navel every 10 seconds, er, I mean develop character!" "This would never make it as a mystery novel!") as often as I have a criticism of the game.

EDIT:  To answer the original question, I would say that there's a difference between liking the game but having issues with it, and disliking the game so much that you just don't play it.  There comes a point where I think that it's valid to tell someone that really, no, they can quit harping on how much and why they don't like it, they're at the point where they're beyond legitimate criticism and into the realm of just crapping on something that other people enjoy simply because other people enjoy it.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:18 .

[belwin]

I think ME1 and ME2 both have thier strong points, gameplay and plotwise
i enjoy playing through one then the other, since the good points of both re-enforce the fun in the other if you ever get tired of something.
just my opinion though.

the most common thing i hear about ME2 is plot holes,
but really just use some imagination. 

example? 
Person 1: Well I'm dissappointed with ME2, I mean why not kill the SR1's escape pods off the beginning Collectors?

Person 2: Maybe they use Mass Effect cores to move, and can therefore stealth similarily like the Normandy for a very limited time?
Person 1: Problem Solved!   
*cakeandicecream*

Modifié par belwin, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Phaedon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Yes, if someone doesn't provide constructive criticism, they are just a hater and they don't have a valid opinion.

But how do you define constructive criticism exactly ? I don't think that opinions from people who post 'Mass Effect 2's story sucked' or 'retcon nao ' are too constructive. It's funny how in the internet, you can be as extreme as you wish, without someone telling you 'Hey, that's wrong. Have you played any games recently ?'

Look at the constructive criticisms BioWare took to heart from ME1.

What are the first things that pop into your head? The elevators... and the mako. Some gameplay mechanics comments. They called that constructive criticism, and they changed it.

So does this mean only comments on gameplay mechanics count as constructive criticism? What about story? Did we ever even remark on ME1's story? Do they even keep an ear out for remarks on story?

Regardless, I would define constructive criticism as any statement that says, "Hey, this would be better if you did this."

Rather than, "Hey, this sucked in every way."

I didn't say that there isn't any constructive criticism, but I don't think that people who are too extreme with their opinion should have it taken into account.

[Phaedon]

Person 1: Well I'm dissappointed with ME2, I mean why not kill the SR1's escape pods off the beginning Collectors?



Person 2: Maybe they use Mass Effect cores to move, and can therefore stealth similarily like the Normandy for a very limited time?

There is a very better explanation to this example, and btw, anything flying around in the ME universe has a Mass Effect drive+thrusters.

[Christmas Ape]

Please, please note, I am not trying to use this as a rhetorical bludgeon to drive users from the forum because I disagree with their opinions on the game. This is 95% pure coincidence, as I noticed this line only earlier today, mixed with a tiny shred of advocatus diaboli and a love of the quirks of language.

Mass Effect 2 Official Campaign Quests and Storylines (Spoilers Warning)
This forum is for Mass Effect 2 fans to discuss the game's storyline and quests.

It does say "fans". A certain amount of "I'm tired of hearing I enjoy crap" might crop up from time to time and find its outlet in a frustrated "Then just go away" kind of remark.

[lovgreno]

Well I think BioWare are wise enough to try to get some inspiration from the ideas on the forums but they should not take what is said here as something that most potential consumers want. I would guess that they rather look at other sucessfull games and other fiction and try to see what made them popular.



There will probably always be those who try to insult or/and whine while cowardly hiding behind the anonymity of the net. However they are irrelevant as their idea of debating is to say they are always right, so, just ignore and forget them. There are often those with something actualy constructive to say if you want to find them.