170 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

What I don't understand is why ME2 seemed to become so gameplay focused all of the sudden.

We're having this constant tug of war over gameplay and story here, the story lovers pulling on one end of the rope and the gameplay lovers pulling on the other.

It really doesn't need to be that way - I think BioWare is more than capable of giving us a mesh of both.

Why was story sacrificed for better gameplay?

[Babli]

Nightwriter wrote...
Is BioWare going to let sales results justify its decisions?

Yes.

[NanQuan]

It's a fine line, certainly. I think the main problem is that people have a hard time separating their personal preferences from the objective facts. For example, I don't like Dragon Age nearly as much as a like Mass Effect, but I can still acknowledge that it is an excellent game and deserves respect. Most of my issues with it are personal (because of the type of gamer I am) and I'm better off playing Mass Effect. So, while I would be a hater for going around complaining about the things that are not to MY preferences, I think it would be fair to point out areas where something could have been better, clearer, etc. (but always in a civil manner).



I'll admit, when reading certain comments by people the thought "if you don't like it, don't play it" has come to mind. When people pick apart the game and they seem to have absolutely nothing positive to say, I find that extremely annoying. I'm a very critical person, but I at least try to say at least one positive thing when offering criticism. But I've seen some people who legitimately suggest excellent alternatives (somewhat rare I think though). Again, it's a fine line.

[Therion942]

Nightwriter wrote...

What I don't understand is why ME2 seemed to become so gameplay focused all of the sudden.

We're having this constant tug of war over gameplay and story here, the story lovers pulling on one end of the rope and the gameplay lovers pulling on the other.

It really doesn't need to be that way - I think BioWare is more than capable of giving us a mesh of both.

Why was story sacrificed for better gameplay?

 I could foxnews you about 4 different theories as to why things changed, but realistically I think BioWare's jimmies may have been a little rustled by the many, many years of Western RPGs being constantly having the stigma of "Well the story's good but the gameplay is really dull" attached to them, so they decided to shake things up a bit, the coherency of the plot and protagonist development suffered as a consequence. Why it suffered? I don't know, I am not a Wizard.

[CroGamer002]

BTW when I play ME1 again I'm incredibly BORED.

Why?

Gameplay suffers few technical problems and is slow while I already know whole ME1 plot.

While in ME2 gameplay is very good and fast paced and even though I know ME2 story I don't get game boring.







I have 7 Shepard's, all imported from ME1( only 1 has edited ME2 face) with all classes while 2 of them are Soldiers( since my canon Shep uses Widow and I wanted to see how Revenant is like), 10 ME1 playtrough's and 15 ME2 playtrough's.



Just in case you think I'm shootem'up type gamer only.

[TMA LIVE]

In some cases, people only hate the game because they want attention, and will scream their complaints. While others complain about a lack of story, a bunch of plot holes, and how the main villain suck. And some people just don't like shooting, and prefer something like Balder's Gate.

If Bioware is going to listen to anything, it's "What is everyone complaining about?". Including professional reviewers, hardcore fans, and the casual, because they need all three to love ME3. Anything that's just a Hardcore only complaint, they'll put in the "maybe" category. And the **** kid they'll probably just ignore.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:17 .

[jlb524]

I like both gameplay and story (preferring story) and am glad they improved combat, but I also want a decent story too. I want both.

[CroGamer002]

^ME3 will have both.

[Kasen]

Mass Effect has had more moments than any other game I've ever played that really made me feel for the characters, or actually stop and think before I made a decision. It's my favorite series of any game I've ever played so far... but there are legitimate plot issues.

For instance, one that I'll never really understand what Bioware was thinking (though I still think they are an amazing developer) was with Ashley/Kaiden on Horizon. The Collectors were there specifically because of that one character, and yet at the end they're still there. I think it's legitimate to pick on this point - I forget who it was that made the suggestion here, but I thought it would have been perfect; instead of having Ashley/Kaiden being there unscathed, they should have been abducted and then rescued during the Collector Cruiser "it's a trap!" mission. Whoever thought of that was a genius, I only wish that Bioware could go back and do something like that after the fact.

Occasionally someone does have a good point, but far, far too often, it's just mean-spirited trolling, attacking the game just because they know it upsets the fans.

Edited because I made a point of a point with a point (yes, I said point too much).

Modifié par Kasen13, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I actually liked ME2 almost as much as ME.



True story.

[Nightwriter]

Mesina, it's just preference. Would you rather have your mind engaged, or your fingers? 

I've got nothing against players who are in it for gameplay, and anyone saying they're a lower class of gamer is just silly. As if I haven't replayed the Tela Vasir battle 7 times just to charge her off the mezzanine again.

I just really, really, really love having my mind engaged, and not just my fingers. So much. You don't even know. And I wish they wouldn't disengage my mind to engage someone else's fingers. I love BioWare for their ability to engage my mind.

[dgumb]

I'm a life-long RPG fan, been in love with the genre since Legend of Zelda, or Phantasy Star, and not really interested in shooters. Last pure shooter I played was Tribes2 i think. But I'm definately in the gameplay*>story camp. I mean, if either the gameplay or the story truly sucks, then the game sucks, but if a game has a great story but bad gameplay, I probably won't finish it. If a game great gameplay, but a bad story, I'll probably finish it.

For the record, I think ME1 has great story/decent gameplay, and ME2 has great gameplay/decent story.

*- For my purposes here, gameplay pretty much = combat.

EDIT: I'm also an obsessive compulsive reader, reading is my second favorite hobby after gaming, and if I really want an engaging story then I'll read one. No game story, I don't care who wrote it, will engage my mind like Dostoyevsky for instance.

Modifié par dgumb, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:26 .

[TMA LIVE]

I'm used to sometimes getting one over the other. If they do it well, then I can get over it. Example, Mario and Sonic; All gameplay, and no story (and when they do add a story... ). The old Resident Evil games also had both a bad story and bad gameplay, yet they still did well because of good scares and atmosphere. Silent Hill 2 had horrible controls, yet had one of the best stories ever told in gaming. So it depends.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:26 .

[TMA LIVE]

Kasen13 wrote...

Mass Effect has had more moments than any other game I've ever played that really made me feel for the characters, or actually stop and think before I made a decision. It's my favorite series of any game I've ever played so far... but there are legitimate plot issues.

For instance, one that I'll never really understand what Bioware was thinking (though I still think they are an amazing developer) was with Ashley/Kaiden on Horizon. The Collectors were there specifically because of that one character, and yet at the end they're still there. I think it's legitimate to pick on this point - I forget who it was that made the suggestion here, but I thought it would have been perfect; instead of having Ashley/Kaiden being there unscathed, they should have been abducted and then rescued during the Collector Cruiser "it's a trap!" mission. Whoever thought of that was a genius, I only wish that Bioware could go back and do something like that after the fact.

Occasionally someone does have a good point, but far, far too often, it's just mean-spirited trolling, attacking the game just because they know it upsets the fans.

Edited because I made a point of a point with a point (yes, I said point too much).

I agree that would have been a good idea, but then again, it wouldn't have given a good reason for Ash/Kaidan to be mad at you. "YOU SAVED ME! If you didn't come, I would have been... Wait... you're working for Cerberus? YOU'RE A TRAITOR!"

[Cyberfrog81]

They don't listen too much to people who spam threads with the same nearly identical points over and over, trying to make their side seem more significant than it really is. I hope.

When you look at game design and overall polish, ME2 is in many ways an improvement. The existance of a few particularly obnoxious disgruntled "fans" doesn't change that. ME2 is not pure awesomeness, however. There are a number of flaws, which should be described and discussed. Hopefully resulting in a better ME3.

People who stick around even when they don't anymore play a specific BioWare title, aren't necessarily trolls or "haters". "Don't like it, don't play it" is not something I would say, but seems it should mean: "If you don't enjoy the game, play something else - for your sake and ours." But I suppose it can also be just a means to chase someone whose opinion you don't like away - consciously or not. The community does not consist only of Mass Effect (2) players though, something which I suppose is easy for some to forget in the heat of the moment.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[SimonTheFrog]

The internet is a dark place...



I'm very passionate about having a good debate over the game. It's especially interesting when people come from a very different angle and can express their opinion clearly and constructively. But moments like these are few even though there are thousands and thousands of posts.



There's a lot of impatience and reluctance to hear others as someone who might be right (as well) and not just sb you need to crush. I think its a male behaviour, to always try to outsmart anybody else. Like a big fight who's opinion is more valid and the winner gets the cookie.



And poor ME2 just gets caught in the middle.



So, about the game. I think it's not wise to see BioWare as a monolith. There are surely people who try to use the success of the first game to make as much money as possible with the IP. Even at the cost of the core audience or continuity. They probably feel the pressure of the shareholders and get payed to do exactly that: make a profit.

But there also a lot of people that clearly love the franchise on its own merits and feel closely connected to the community and want them to be happy because they know how great a good game is. People who are passionate about games often end up in the industry.

So, it's not right to bash the game generally and blame "BioWare" for its flaws. If somebody does that, there's hardly a good way to have a discussion. Hence the "go away if you don't like it". Likewise, if somebody can't except sb else to be unhappy about certain aspects of the game than there won't be any good discussion either.

So, lets stay open, lets differentiate and lets not make it personal too much. Its not about who's right but to have a good discussion and maybe BioWare, who's surely aware of whats going on here in this forum, gets some ideas about what people like and what not and they can decide what to do with that info.



I just hope they won't ignore the core audience (the ones who actually read the codex) and keep ME distinct from other generic sci-fi shooters. And when they do, i hope they will sell a lot of units so that taking a risk and being unique sounds good for investors in the future.

[cachx]

Nightwriter wrote...

All right. I hear people say this often in response to vocal ME2 criticism. "If you didn't like it, don't play it."

I don't like that particular line, ("If you didn't like it, don't play it."). If you don't play it, how are you supposed to like it or not?

how seriously does BioWare and the Mass Effect community take those people who were really disappointed with ME2?

I can only speculate. I was part of the "industry" for a brief time, and I got to see a lot of stuff that goes behind the scenes during game production. My guess would be that they do pay attention, but "hardcore fans" are only a very small portion of all the stuff they need to consider. That's why I tend to get angry with people that seems to believe that a game gets put together by magical creatures, ponies and wishes of little children. Or with people that just come up with idiotic statements like "you only care about the money!"

Do we truly perceive everyone who criticizes the game as a hater?
Can every criticism be tossed up to ME1 nostalgia? Are the days of constructive criticism gone?
Where do you draw the line between a person with a credible complaint and someone who’s just a game basher,
BioWare?

I have read a lot of valid complaints about ME2 (and a lot more that are not). But seriosly, 8 months on, still the same stuff, over and over again?, is kinda funny in a sad way that the "dissapoinment" thread still lives on, in some form or another. and that some people never waste a chance to snipe at ME2 in unrelated thread, or just try to derail them with the same stuff over and over (not to mention that there are people that only exist to do that). If that's not bashing or "hatin'" then I don't know the polite word for it.
Had I reached the same level of "dissapointment" I would have done the decent thing, state my dissapointment and then just move on.

[Nightwriter]

People seem to be making out like the alternative here is absolutely horrendous gameplay but great plot.

At the most, if the story lovers got their way, it would just be pretty good gameplay/strong plot.

BioWare isn't going to deliver absolutely unbearable gameplay that makes getting through the story impossible.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

My only major concern with ME2 pertains to the strategy by Bioware to make the game a standalone property. It wasn't so much that it wasn't referential enough to ME1 (okay, not great) as that the overall story introduced in the first game was treated more like a subplot rather than the main plot. As far as second acts go, ME2 was a disappointment in that it didn't do enough IMO to create the necessary conflict or doubt regarding the protagonist and his/her ultimate goal of saving the galaxy.



I felt this could have been accomplished by expanding upon and delving deeper into the story elements established in ME1 combined with a more coherent focus in ME2 of making the main story plots introduced (i.e. The Collectors, Illusive Man & Dark Energy) more nuanced, urgent and tenuous, depending on each specific situation.



Despite all of this, I continue to enjoy ME2 each time I play it and remain a huge fan of Bioware as they have established a long track record of making quality games that have both amazed and spoiled me.

[ResidentNoob]

I don't perceive everyone who criticizes the game as a hater. For example, you yourself, Night, have criticized ME2 quite a bit recently. Do I regard you as a hater? Not in the slightest; I'd be seriously surprised if there was someone who liked absolutely everything about it.

My definition of a hater is someone that criticizes something while being hostile about it. If someone disagrees with you, but manages to provide reasons and arguments in a positive and friendly manner, then they become an opponent, a rival, someone to have an enjoyable discussion with about the mechanics of a game's universe, which I believe is what this forum is all about in the first place. It's why I joined the forum, anyway.

If someone disagrees with you and is hostile about it, however, giving reasons and arguments claiming that they are definitive proof that you are wrong, all the while dismissing your opinion as 'retarded' or something similar, then those people are haters/trolls, who have nothing to say that is worth wasting your time on and are better left to grumble under their bridge that is the size of their ego.

I don't like defining people as haters, but I know one when I see one, and my patience has a limit.

P.S. Personally, I find the phrase 'If you didn't like it, don't play it' completely redundant, considering that you need to have played the game to not like it in the first place, no?
Some people can be seriously dumb; people who use that phrase, for starters.<_<

Wow, that was way more eloquent than I originally planned it to be.

[lovgreno]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
There's a lot of impatience and reluctance to hear others as someone who might be right (as well) and not just sb you need to crush. I think its a male behaviour, to always try to outsmart anybody else. Like a big fight who's opinion is more valid and the winner gets the cookie.

As a male I would like to say that was a bit of a generalisation but there may be some truth in it anyway. It is rather pointless to claim to know best anyway as only the writers can claim the truth and the series isn't even over yet.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

People seem to be making out like the alternative here is absolutely horrendous gameplay but great plot.

At the most, if the story lovers got their way, it would just be pretty good gameplay/strong plot.

BioWare isn't going to deliver absolutely unbearable gameplay that makes getting through the story impossible.

Well, I think a lot of people just think they picked gameplay over story, but really I think they just had their writers working on other stuff, like DA: O, DA: A, TOR, DLC, and ME2 at the same time.

[Nightwriter]

cachx wrote...

I don't like that particular line, ("If you didn't like it, don't play it."). If you don't play it, how are you supposed to like it or not?

This one understands!

cachx wrote...

I can only speculate. I was part of the "industry" for a brief time, and I got to see a lot of stuff that goes behind the scenes during game production. My guess would be that they do pay attention, but "hardcore fans" are only a very small portion of all the stuff they need to consider. That's why I tend to get angry with people that seems to believe that a game gets put together by magical creatures, ponies and wishes of little children. Or with people that just come up with idiotic statements like "you only care about the money!"

I like to hope BioWare cares about more than money. I've always sort of gotten the impression they do. I've always loved them for it. ... Am I naive?

cachx wrote...

I have read a lot of valid complaints about ME2 (and a lot more that are not). But seriosly, 8 months on, still the same stuff, over and over again?, is kinda funny in a sad way that the "dissapoinment" thread still lives on, in some form or another. and that some people never waste a chance to snipe at ME2 in unrelated thread, or just try to derail them with the same stuff over and over (not to mention that there are people that only exist to do that). If that's not bashing or "hatin'" then I don't know the polite word for it.
Had I reached the same level of "dissapointment" I would have done the decent thing, state my dissapointment and then just move on.

I'll admit I've said the same stuff over and over. But that is only because argument and debate are recurring and unending - so long as there is someone with an opposing opinion the debate will continue and you will keep arguing your side, which does, yes, involve you repeating yourself.

So to some extent I think repetitions of the same points are to be forgiven.

[CroGamer002]

Nightwriter wrote...

Mesina, it's just preference. Would you rather have your mind engaged, or your fingers? 

I've got nothing against players who are in it for gameplay, and anyone saying they're a lower class of gamer is just silly. As if I haven't replayed the Tela Vasir battle 7 times just to charge her off the mezzanine again.

I just really, really, really love having my mind engaged, and not just my fingers. So much. You don't even know. And I wish they wouldn't disengage my mind to engage someone else's fingers. I love BioWare for their ability to engage my mind.

Just don't tell me ME2 didn't engaged your mind.
Many examples in ME2:

Legion loyalty about rewriting or destroying Herectics
Mordin loyalty about keeping Genophage cure or destroying it
Suicide Mission about destryoing Collector base or give advance technology to terrorists that could use it against Reapers
Overlord about letting David go or let Cerberus continue sick experiments to possibly save millions
.
.
.