135 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Okay. I just wanted to make a completely seperate thread about this. I always felt that Jack was in the wrong during the whole convo. Because frankly she had no right barging into Miranda's office and screaming at her. Sure what Cerberus did to her was wrong. But why go to Miranda about it? (It's even more glaring if you do her loyalty mission after Miranda's. Apparently the first thing she does once you get back is barge into Miranda's personal workspace (which is a floor above her and never once after the inital conversation has Miranda interacted with her in some playthroughs) and starts throwing things around.

Am I the only one to feel that despite what was done Jack had no right to do that?  

[Caihn]

No you're not the only one. I agree with you.



To me Jack is threat. I wish her recruitment could be optional, so I would not be forced to kill her.

I always side with Miranda. I could have used the paragon or renegade choice to keep Jack loyalty, but the fact that she threaten Miranda to death changed my mind.

[Nadya2]

miranda is suppose to represent the illusive man's interest within the ship. she is suppose to be his eyes and make reports of everything happening back to him. it is logical she goes for miranda since i doubt she would find any way to access the illusive man on her own, she also seems to think miranda is fully aware of his activities and plans. keep in mind she is not really a very diplomatic kinda person and was raised with violence through out her entire life, she does not know any other way to deal with things, so it fits her personally to react that way.

[Barrendall]

Ryzaki wrote...

Okay. I just wanted to make a completely seperate thread about this. I always felt that Jack was in the wrong during the whole convo. Because frankly she had no right barging into Miranda's office and screaming at her. Sure what Cerberus did to her was wrong. But why go to Miranda about it? (It's even more glaring if you do her loyalty mission after Miranda's. Apparently the first thing she does once you get back is barge into Miranda's personal workspace (which is a floor above her and never once after the inital conversation has Miranda interacted with her in some playthroughs) and starts throwing things around.

Am I the only one to feel that despite what was done Jack had no right to do that?  

If she just barged in and started the fight no I don't condone it.  Is that what really happened though?  I'm not sure.  Maybe the whole thing started in the hallway and Miranda brought Jack into her office to keep the argument private and things escalated from there.  It wasn't clear how the argument started, who started it, and from where it began.  All we know is that it definitely ended in Miranda's cabin.

[Ryzaki]

Barrendall111 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Okay. I just wanted to make a completely seperate thread about this. I always felt that Jack was in the wrong during the whole convo. Because frankly she had no right barging into Miranda's office and screaming at her. Sure what Cerberus did to her was wrong. But why go to Miranda about it? (It's even more glaring if you do her loyalty mission after Miranda's. Apparently the first thing she does once you get back is barge into Miranda's personal workspace (which is a floor above her and never once after the inital conversation has Miranda interacted with her in some playthroughs) and starts throwing things around.

Am I the only one to feel that despite what was done Jack had no right to do that?  

If she just barged in and started the fight no I don't condone it.  Is that what really happened though?  I'm not sure.  Maybe the whole thing started in the hallway and Miranda brought Jack into her office to keep the argument private and things escalated from there.  It wasn't clear how the argument started, who started it, and from where it began.  All we know is that it definitely ended in Miranda's cabin.

I doubt that highly. Miranda wouldn't have brought Jack anywhere (and I doubt Jack would've followed her) the chance of it happening in her office is extremely high. 

I'm pretty sure Miranda was probably trying to get her to leave. Explains the "touch me and I'll smear the walls with you b****". 

...I can't force myself to side with Jack in that convo anymore. She was way out of damn line and I wish Shep had kicked her off the ship then and there. 

[achwas]

Miranda is in a way the mirror image of Jack. And therein lies the crux of the matter. genetically enhanced, bred for maximum efficency, most of what they are and have become owed to Cerberus - but where Jack rebelled against her incarceration and abuse and turned on Cerberus, Miranda actually sought out Cerberus and owes them her life and self-determination. Everything a renegade Cerberus team denied Jack.

Jack's hatred and sub-conscious envy of Miranda is rationally understandable. It still does not makes her way of showing it better in any way.
Miranda on the other hand might have shown some more empathy and perhaps faked some remorse over actions that happened on Cerberus' watch.
And Miranda is TIM's representative aboard the Normandy, hence the logical lightning rod for jack's fury. No big surprise there

Modifié par achwas, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Barrendall]

Well one thing about Miranda is that she isn't a coward and she is obviously not afraid of Jack in the slightest. Her confidence is not down played in the game so it wouldn't surprise me if she did bring Jack into her cabin and after seeing the argument was going nowhere tried to get her to leave. "shrug" Again no way to be sure what precipitated the events. Jack could well have been in the wrong there. My Shepards never take sides in that argument. I just tell them to knock it off and get back to business.

[Ryzaki]

Miranda is logical and efficient. If she saw Jack coping an attitude I doubt she would've brought her in close quarters where Jack's biotics could do a lot of damage. Especially not her office where there are plenty of things to throw. Also Miranda sees Jack as unreasonable. I could say Miranda looking up at Jack asking what she wants, Jack starts cursing her out and threatening her so Miranda gets up Jack starts throwing things around and that's where Joker calls Shep. I used to tell them to get used to dealing with each other but Jack's attitude at that point had been wearing my Shep thin. I just RP as though he never got her.

[Collider]

No you aren't the only one. I actually wished that the Jack/Miranda fight had been more balanced. Jack is portrayed as the aggressor in the fight - even attacking Miranda - and Miranda is just defending herself. Sure, "you were a mistake" is a low blow, but I doubt Jack had never called Miranda all sorts of things prior to the fight.

[Pacifien]

Ryzaki wrote...
I doubt that highly. Miranda wouldn't have brought Jack anywhere (and I doubt Jack would've followed her) the chance of it happening in her office is extremely high.

Actually, I think it's very likely that Miranda would have guided Jack away from a public space to continue the argument in her office. If Miranda felt Jack was a loose cannon, having her go off in the mess hall wouldn't have been something Miranda was going to allow. And while EDI does seem to have eyes everywhere, Joker's call to Shepard might have come from concerns of others who might have witnessed the start of the argument.

Some arguments are really just a long time coming. Jack's hatred of Cerberus is well known, just as Miranda's defense of it. Jack wasn't looking to blame Miranda, she was looking to blame Miranda's employer. That's an argument I wouldn't mind having myself.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

why can't we boot them both off the ship for disruption?

[Mondo47]

Just to throw my bear-flicking towel into the ring here, I agree that Jack more than likely went up there to pick a fight or at the very least went up there spoiling for one. She's in the wrong from that point of view.

Thing is, so is Miranda. She has already demonstrated a somewhat ruthless attitude to anyone not towing the Cerberus line. Jack hates Cerberus (and rightly so), so she's already on Miri's sh*tlist in that respect. But Miranda is smart, rational and because of that, even if she has no empathy for Jack's anger, she has to understand where it's coming from (to not would require total ignorance of what was found on Pragia, and since you can take her along and she writes up all the mission reports for Timmy it's impossible for her not to). So what does she do? She goads the wild animal instead of backing away or simply placating it when it is entirely in her power, thus robbing herself of any potential moral high ground. And using semantics as an argument when it comes to the torture, degredation and mass-murder of children just does not fly - least of all in the face of a survivor of such an atrocity. Plus, lets look at the basics here - Jack is massively superior to Miranda in damage output... poking a pitbull in the nuts with a cattle prod is asking for trouble; you'd better have bigger teeth or your ass is writing a check it can't cash in a drawer in the morgue.

They're both as bad as each other. My Shepards generally want to just knock their heads together and make them both quit their bullsh*t; I have no pureblood Renegade douchebag Sheps because I just can't bring myself to make certain choices in the game (I can't kill the rachni queen in any of my playthroughs for example because genocide is, duh, irredeemably evil, not just a random act of douchebaggery), so I can't allow them to fight it out later, and I can't take a side because they're both in the wrong. If I have to take a side, I take Jack's. Why? Because she illicits more sympathy and patience from me; she's an angry child throwing her weight about because it's the only response she knows... that, as a parent, I can understand - it's not right, but I can understand it. Miranda is smart enough once she has cooled down to understand it was her job to be the better woman because Jack doesn't know how to be one in a situation like that... hell, I'm agog Jack is as sane as she is considering her life up until joining the Normandy.

Those two characters are more alike than they would like to ever admit, though it would take one raising herself out of the gutter a whole lot, and the other to come down off her pedestal.

[Ryzaki]

Pacifien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I doubt that highly. Miranda wouldn't have brought Jack anywhere (and I doubt Jack would've followed her) the chance of it happening in her office is extremely high.

Actually, I think it's very likely that Miranda would have guided Jack away from a public space to continue the argument in her office. If Miranda felt Jack was a loose cannon, having her go off in the mess hall wouldn't have been something Miranda was going to allow. And while EDI does seem to have eyes everywhere, Joker's call to Shepard might have come from concerns of others who might have witnessed the start of the argument.

Some arguments are really just a long time coming. Jack's hatred of Cerberus is well known, just as Miranda's defense of it. Jack wasn't looking to blame Miranda, she was looking to blame Miranda's employer. That's an argument I wouldn't mind having myself.

True. I don't know though I see the incident as Jack going into Miranda's office. Then again maybe Miranda did lead her there, try to talk to her and that's when when Shep came in.

Though one wonders if everyone saw that why wasn't there more muttering about it later. Those guys gossip about everything else.

The arguement was inevitable but it really did feel like Jack was the aggressor. (Doesn't help that she does that right after her loyalty mission In some cases.) I can't help but be reminded of an angry teenager.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Collider]

All we know for sure is that Jack was in Miranda's office, Jack was on the offense and Miranda on the defense, and Jack attacked Miranda. Sure, Miranda may not have the best attitude, but neither does Jack.



As to Jack being the child and Miranda the adult = I agree. That is basically how it is. But in context of that, siding with Miranda is the closest thing to scolding Jack for being violent and disrupting the crew over Miranda not saying that Cerberus did the experiments. If we are to treat Jack as a child, teaching her a lesson of life is important. That violence does not solve all problems.

[Mondo47]

Collider wrote...

As to Jack being the child and Miranda the adult = I agree. That is basically how it is. But in context of that, siding with Miranda is the closest thing to scolding Jack for being violent and disrupting the crew over Miranda not saying that Cerberus did the experiments. If we are to treat Jack as a child, teaching her a lesson of life is important. That violence does not solve all problems.

True enough for a normal child, but Jack is an abused child... applying the normal rules to a child with a damaged or nonexistant socializational development; one likely to treat many triggers and cues as precursors to further pain (even when they're not), is like walking into a minefild and hoping you don't stand on something deadly. Every step forward can be three more back.

Yeah, I'll forgive a lot with Jack

[Nightwriter]

Jack's trauma and stunted maturity are more than enough to excuse her behavior to me, but not enough to paint Jack the victim and Miranda the offender in the fight.

It's hard for me, I don't think I've ever seen two characters I understand so very well.

Jack was out of line, Miranda was frigid. I blame both and I blame neither. Sh*t happens and b*tches are born.

[Xeranx]

I always felt that conflict happened in the wrong place and at the wrong time. My feeling is it should have happened after you tell Jack to get settled in and then you'll give her whatever papers she wants. As time goes by she gets impatient and confronts Miranda because she's TIM's face on the ship.

Blowing up the facility should have come after all that and she got the papers either by taking them or them being given to her. The former displays that Jack could be a loose cannon on the ship unless she gets at least one thing going right for her. The latter is a promise fulfilled. Basically the entire sequence would be Jack's loyalty mission.

Modifié par Xeranx, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:17 .

[aeetos21]

miranda makes many astute observations about the pragia facility: recognizing that it went rogue, the need for a morgue since many children died there, and was horrified when she saw the condition of the cells the children lived in. jack disagreed on the first two and had no comment on the third but still, given her narration and the story behind what happened there was no less tragic. flip it around, bring jack on miranda's loyalty mission. she doesn't say much if i recall but when enyala calls miranda out on her skintight outfit (where every gamer unanimously proclaimed "YES! FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT IT!") Jack laughs and asks if they're still recruiting - this is quickly followed up by her shooting a warning shot and going back to a completely professional face.



now both acted professional during these missions i felt that jack probably could've cared less about what happened to oriana when compared to how miranda felt about the paragia facility.



so when the confrontation inevitably does come around i'm actually a lot more dissapointed in miranda than am i am with jack. for someone who reads people well as her she should've seen early on that jack was going to lash out at the biggest cerberus target she could find after the events on pragia. if miranda wasn't there she would've lashed out at jacob, if she could've lashed out at TIM she would've attacked him, but since miranda was the best she could get she attacked her and demanded an apology. by then miranda should've had a good read on jack and know better than to antagonize her: "it wasn't cerberus, not really, but clearly you were a mistake."



i mean talking about going for the jugular. at least jack never said: "i'm the mistake? your daddy has to send mercs to keep his ****ty daughters on a leash. he wants to off the two of you, failures - both of you are"



so when you break it down miranda is technically in the right, though i feel cerberus and TIM need to account for the damage the caused by not supervising the facility enough (the closest we get is miranda admitting that what cerberus did on pragia was a mistake). however miranda should recognize that logic doesn't apply in jack's situation. she was horribly traumatized by questionable cerberus personnel and understandably feels the need to demand an apology or "admit what cerberus did was wrong." instead miranda didn't live up to my expectations and only antagonized the situation further but, that's me.



this isn't the first time we've seen this sort of question come up in games like ME2. i know BW worked on kotor and a lot of fans on here love that game but there was also one scene in kotor 2 that can relate a lot to this argument. the main character, you play in kotor 2, is an exiled jedi and when you see the recordings of his "trial", as it were, you see two jedi masters arguing whether or not they should place the blame of the mandalorian wars on the jedi who followed revan or whether they should accept responsibility that in the end they failed their students. or, a more well-known example, is when you have obi-wan and anakin fighting it out and obi-wan apologizes to his former student, taking responsibility of his failure as a teacher.



i think tim and cerberus should account for that (and also their other more questionable experiments: akuze, etc.) but when you have them throw on the whole "we did it for humanity" clause shepard never asks: "and sending fifty marines to fight a thresher maw was the ONLY way you could determine how their poison affects humans?"



so if neither miranda or jack couldn't see this during their spat or afterwards i feel like shepard DEFINITELY should have. unfortunately bioware never gave us the option to say something like... "Miranda, you shouldn't be telling me what happened on Pragia was a mistake. Someone else needs to hear it a lot more and - even though you weren't responsible - you're the closest she'll ever get to hearing an apology."



unfortunately bioware lives for the dramatics in its games (which is a good thing i suppose otherwise they wouldn't be half as exciting) and we get stuck with: "My opinion is the only one that matters on this ship! You two keep a deck apart, all times! Clear?"



talk about drama (insert eyeroll)

[Isaidlunch]

While I am sympathetic for Jack and all she's been through, I could never in a million years side with her in that fight. She treats Miranda like dirt the whole game and then starts throwing around heavy objects in her office at her, obviously showing no regard for how important the mission is. She couldn't care less if she seriously injured Miranda, in fact I'm sure she'd be happy about it because in her mind she's getting back at Cerberus. It's exactly as Miranda says, "she's unstable and she's jeopardising the mission".

Besides, why should Miranda have to put up with her? It's understandable that Jack would have issues with her but Miranda shouldn't have to keep her under control, that's Shepard's job. I can't blame her for snapping and saying something she shouldn't have. Jack is looking for revenge on Cerberus and Miranda is caught in the middle, she's done nothing wrong and is well within her rights to retaliate if Shepard is going to let it escalate that far.

Modifié par Kazanth, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We don't really have a lot of context on how the fight started but based on what little was said in front of Shepard, I sided with Jack even when I wasn't romancing her.



All that it sounded from that conversation was that Jack wanted to Miranda to admit what Cerberus' wrong doings and Miranda wanted Jack gone.

[axl99]

While I empathize more with Jack because her anger is actually justified, for the sake of objectivity in the game I would never take a side in their argument.

So if we're simply picking apart the debate, there's not much Miranda can do. If I were in Miranda's shoes, there's really nothing much I can do. It's like complaining to the waiter how the food is terrible when the cook is responsible for screwing up a dish. And then throwing a chair at said waiter.

It's no secret Jack hates Miranda - however it's not so much Miranda as a person, but more her strong affiliation with Cerberus. From day one Jack actively distances herself from the crew aboard the Normandy. Logic follows that as most of the crew are with Cerberus, Jack wants nothing to do with them. Therefore she wouldn't make the effort to make contact unless given significant motivation or provocation. The optional romance with Shepard and the confrontation with Miranda are two good examples of that.

The game never tells us exactly what happened before the argument. The line "Touch me and I will smear the walls with you" comes across as a threat at first, but the first two words smack of Jack being on the defensive. This is Jack being provoked. And Jack reacts by throwing a chair.

Why? Ask Miranda.

Jack throwing a temper tantrum at Miranda is hardly the main issue, her original intent is to extract accountability from Miranda because of her affiliation with Cerberus. Clearly Jack needs to address her issues with the main person responsible - TIM, however since he's nowhere within reach, Jack takes the next best thing. Miranda's status as second-in-command puts her in a very precarious position, one would normally expect her to be privy to much of the classified information Cerberus keeps hidden. Apparently not so with Jack.

Consider this. Miranda calling Jack a mistake would be just like calling Akuze an "unfortunate accident" for the sole survivor Shepard.

Early on in the game Miranda dismisses all the crap that Cerberus has thrown Shepard - at us - in the first game by saying that the military cell is solely responsible. That's the same stance she takes with Jack - admit nothing, deny everything. This is exactly what sets Jack off.

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that Jack represents a very cold reality of the things that Cerberus endorses in order to meet their goals. Abducting children from their families to turn them into biological weapons? Actively conditioning them with drugs and physical abuse to enjoy violence? The surmounting evidence of Jack's motive for confronting Miranda is simply staggering. Jack isn't the way she is by choice, she's a product of her own environment. This is the reality she is showing Miranda.

Miranda isn't exactly speaking from a moral high ground here, so she makes the low blow because it's the only way she could retaliate.

It doesn't matter how seemingly logical Miranda's side of the argument was - Cerberus is organized into different cells - she needs to understand that her position as The Illusive Man's second in command makes her liable to the consequences of the decisions her superior has made. Projects he personally approved. What she is [intentionally] forgetting is that all those Cerberus cells answer to one person: The Illusive Man.

TIM has forwarded Jack's dossier to Shepard, meaning he has actively decided to make good of his surviving investment and puts forth the intention that she'd be useful in the Collector mission. Miranda clearly disagrees with TIM's decision to free Jack just as much as she disagrees with not putting a control chip in Shepard's head.

Oh, and notice how the option for siding with Jack appears on the top right corner.

Modifié par axl99, 27 octobre 2010 - 03:11 .

[Gokuthegrate]

Jack was in the right.

All Miranda tries to do is downplay all the crap Cerberus puts anyone through for their own objectives until after the SM.

[ElectricZ]

Jack's looking for payback, and Miranda is the most visible, most connected, and most unapologetic Cerberus loyalist on the ship. She's Jack's most logical nemesis. Both of them have ample reason to wish the other dead.



I think the blame for this mess should fall squarely on TIM for choosing Jack as a recruit. It really was done by the writers at Bioware to manufacture strife amongst the squad for the sake of dramatic effect... there's no logical reason in game for TIM to choose someone who has a more legitimate beef with Cerberus than Shepard. Discounting that, I took Jack's side because she is a complete product of her environment, and Cerberus is 100% responsible for taking an infant child with no control of her life and turning her into a weapon. Miranda is a smart enough woman to recognize the psychological damage Jack has endured and realize that the "rogue element" of Cerberus defense really only goes so far. In spite of her seemingly cold, uncaring nature, I thought she was too decent of a person to try and defend what was done to Jack, and I wanted her to be the better woman.



Regrettably, I didn't have the paragon points to pull that off in my main playthrough, so I don't have a loyal Miranda. I look forward to seeing if the survivors of the attack on the Collector Base have gained loyalty since, or if this is going to cause me problems in ME3...

[Ryzaki]

I don't agree that uppper right = right



The upper right option in Mordin's loyalty has you calling him a murderer and that the genophage was wrong. So...yeah. Not the best choice for neutrality there.



Though I agree it was a low blow with Miranda but I agree with her. Jack was a mistake that should've never been created. Cerberus had no right to do such things.



That said BW gave TIM an idiot ball for having Jack be optional. "Ah yes. Let's have the girl who hates our guts for a valid reason go on our most important mission! That's totally logical!"

[Collider]

Miranda never defended what happened to Jack. She defended Cerberus. I imagine that Jack just saw that as the same thing.