135 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Ryzaki wrote...
That said BW gave TIM an idiot ball for having Jack be optional. "Ah yes. Let's have the girl who hates our guts for a valid reason go on our most important mission! That's totally logical!"

Hey, he wasn't going to spend all that time turning her into a biotic weapon of destruction and never use it. Might as well use it on a mission that should theoretically kill her in the process as well.

[TwistedComplex]

Miranda is the Morrigan of mass effect 2. Therefore, i side with jack

[Ryzaki]

Pacifien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That said BW gave TIM an idiot ball for having Jack be optional. "Ah yes. Let's have the girl who hates our guts for a valid reason go on our most important mission! That's totally logical!"

Hey, he wasn't going to spend all that time turning her into a biotic weapon of destruction and never use it. Might as well use it on a mission that should theoretically kill her in the process as well.

Which would be fine if not for running the risk of destroying his 4 billion credit project too. She wasn't a threat to him in any way before he got her out of cryo. Now there's a chance she'll attempt (I say attempt because anyone who goes against Shep gets curbstomped) to go after him. And she's in a much better position now than she was on Purgatory.

And there's no evidence that TIM knew exactly what was going on. (If he did I'd expect he'd be displeased. A. There was only one super strong biotic and B. She ended up costing him a lot of money and time.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:15 .

[GodWood]

I think Mondo and Axl summed up my views better then I ever could.

[Barrendall]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
That said BW gave TIM an idiot ball for having Jack be optional. "Ah yes. Let's have the girl who hates our guts for a valid reason go on our most important mission! That's totally logical!"

Hey, he wasn't going to spend all that time turning her into a biotic weapon of destruction and never use it. Might as well use it on a mission that should theoretically kill her in the process as well.

Which would be fine if not for running the risk of destroying his 4 billion credit project too. She wasn't a threat to him in any way before he got her out of cryo. Now there's a chance she'll attempt (I say attempt because anyone who goes against Shep gets curbstomped) to go after him. And she's in a much better position now than she was on Purgatory.

And there's no evidence that TIM knew exactly what was going on. (If he did I'd expect he'd be displeased. A. There was only one super strong biotic and B. She ended up costing him a lot of money and time.)

His money, his risk.  He was chasing Jack for a very long time.  I don't think he was as innocent as he proclaimed he was.  He may not have known all the details but why would he continue to try and bring Jack in?  Why not just let her go?  TIM saw her potential and he was as determined to use her for his own means as he was to bring Shepard back and take over the Collector's spacestation.

[achwas]

hmmmm according to vid-logs at the Pragia base, the local scientist were distinctly nervous about TIM shutting them down, hard, because they had exceeded their mandate. Massively so. That doesn't sound at all like they actually were still operating under premises and limits set by Cerberus HQ (as far as such a thing exists )

So TIM may be responsible for running Pragia loosely and without enough transparency, but both are the hallmarks of secret organizations. besides oversight committees and internal audits are just the chickens**t Cerberus aims to avoid. It''s a risk of culpability TIM &co run...BUT there certainly is not a direct responsibility for what was done to Jack (and the numberless other children Jack maimed and killed back there ). TIM's not to blame for what was done to Jack, only for creating circumstances that made it possible and not shutting Pragia down sooner.

And in any case that does not exonnerate Jack - she went from abused victim straight to serial predator, and she never even sought help against "her terrible past forcing her". She embraced violence, torture and shows the same lack of respect towards physical inviolation of others that she mourns not having had shown to her.
So, she knows she acts wrong but still immensely enjoys what she does, even exceeds in scope the crimes committed against her and is supposed to be still not considered a perpetrator and menace ? She expects the mercy, pity and consideration which she never even in the scope of ME-2 attempts to show or extend herself to anyone ?

If she was male, and thereby the abuse slightly less emotionally charged and her not a possible LI, any Shepard, renegade or paragon would opt for spacing her or at least putting her back in Cryo, instead of having her run loose on the SR-2. Because, who would actually want a Charlie Manson on his crew for the SM ? Or left aboard while Shepard is dirtside for a mission ?


As a final observation : has noone else picked up on the fact of Kaidan Alenko's memories of his biotic training and the abuse he suffered there, which, while on a milder scale, show the same pattern of treatment as the Pragia facility ? Yes, the Pragia facility acted inhumanly and excessive, while Alliance biotic training seems to have drawn a line, somewhere... but what is it about biotic training and its link to abuse of children and teens ?

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Collider]

Jack was literally pumped full of mood-enhancing drugs when they made her fight the other children, though. So basically she may naturally think violence = good.

[achwas]

Collider wrote...

Jack was literally pumped full of mood-enhancing drugs when they made her fight the other children, though. So basically she may naturally think violence = good.

She has been gone from Pragia for how many years now ? And she is certainly a smart woman, even acknowledges that she gets a "warm feeling" from violence, is consciously aware that things shouldn't be that way and also a strong, active personality not incapable of taking decisions on her own -  yet STILL does nothing about it ? Or even seeks seclusion ?

Sorry, while her past is traumatic and horrible, she too much enjoys claiming victimhood as a justification for her sociopathic urges.

[Collider]

Where does Jack claim victimhood though? She probably thinks she is a victim (and rightly so) but where do you get the impression that she enjoys claiming victimhood too much?

[achwas]

Collider wrote...

Where does Jack claim victimhood though? She probably thinks she is a victim (and rightly so) but where do you get the impression that she enjoys claiming victimhood too much?

I didn't say "too much". But she carries it around as a shield for deflecting the hard questions about her own actions. "they used me, then sold me into slavery" "they did this to me, hence my excessive revenge is understandable" "Cerberus did this to me, so everyone in Cerber us must be an a**hole".

Shepard confronts her about it in the engineering talks, Jack never disagrees, She regards it as a liberating influence, "teaching her" about how the world is, setting her free to (ab-)use it as she sees fit.

"I was a victim who couldn't protect herself and I was wronged - understand my anger" sort of clashes with "lots of soft marks to exploit", "let's take this ship and become a predatory pirate".
While very human, the status of having been a victim does not give you carte blanche to ignore the rules which one still resents having been broken with regard to you in the first place. Especially not against innocent third parties.

Nevermind that even her own memories of what was done to her seem to be self-edited towards her regarding herself as the lone victim, with everyone else being to blame. Like the other children on Pragia - it becomes rather clear that her memories of what took places there at least at times diverges massively from factual events.

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Mondo47]

achwas wrote...

hmmmm according to vid-logs at the Pragia base, the local scientist were distinctly nervous about TIM shutting them down, hard, because they had exceeded their mandate. Massively so. That doesn't sound at all like they actually were still operating under premises and limits set by Cerberus HQ (as far as such a thing exists )

So TIM may be responsible for running Pragia loosely and without enough transparency, but both are the hallmarks of secret organizations. besides oversight committees and internal audits are just the chickens**t Cerberus aims to avoid. It''s a risk of culpability TIM &co run...BUT there certainly is not a direct responsibility for what was done to Jack (and the numberless other children Jack maimed and killed back there ). TIM's not to blame for what was done to Jack, only for creating circumstances that made it possible and not shutting Pragia down sooner.

And in any case that does not exonnerate Jack - she went from abused victim straight to serial predator, and she never even sought help against "her terrible past forcing her". She embraced violence, torture and shows the same lack of respect towards physical inviolation of others that she mourns not having had shown to her.
So, she knows she acts wrong but still immensely enjoys what she does, even exceeds in scope the crimes committed against her and is supposed to be still not considered a perpetrator and menace ? She expects the mercy, pity and consideration which she never even in the scope of ME-2 attempts to show or extend herself to anyone ?

If she was male, and thereby the abuse slightly less emotionally charged and her not a possible LI, any Shepard, renegade or paragon would opt for spacing her or at least putting her back in Cryo, instead of having her run loose on the SR-2. Because, who would actually want a Charlie Manson on his crew for the SM ? Or left aboard while Shepard is dirtside for a mission ?


As a final observation : has noone else picked up on the fact of Kaidan Alenko's memories of his biotic training and the abuse he suffered there, which, while on a milder scale, show the same pattern of treatment as the Pragia facility ? Yes, the Pragia facility acted inhumanly and excessive, while Alliance biotic training seems to have drawn a line, somewhere... but what is it about biotic training and its link to abuse of children and teens ?

I think taking an apologist line with Cerberus is only going to run so far before it runs completely out of gas and it tears back down the hill into a wall, never mind variable mileage. Miranda says herself that Cerberus runs it's cells pretty loose; they get given their funding, their facilities, and they're told "go do it." All that is demanded is results. Considering that Dr Archer was so terrified of Timmy's wrath he plugged his brother into the geth network in some revolting homage to the Ludovico technique and all the Hellraiser movies, one can only assume TIM doesn't just fire you if you screw up badly enough. You probably get disappeared. It's more likely that the cutters-and-stitchers in Pragia weren't worried about how far they'd gone, but more about Timmy finding out that their star pupil spent a lot more time crying and rocking back and forth in her cell than ripping things to bits for their precious little super-biotic programme. Sure, they were probably worried about him finding out how many kids they'd made vanish over the years, but would TIM care once he got his little Carrie-in-a-box? Like hell he would. He can make details like a few hundred vanished kids over a few years, well, vanish. Sorry, those bastards were more afraid for their own skin than Timmy being a bit upset about them cutting up children and stitching back together the ones that didn't die right away. The Illusive Man does not brook failure... if you have to railroad children into deathcamps along the way, I doubt very much he cares. After all, he's in this for the species, isn't he? Big pictures help monsters sleep at night.

As for Jack coming out of her cell a monster in equal rights, that's quite a bit of supposition; we don't really know what happened to her in any detail outside the fragments we get told by her (and Jack is a little bit unreliable in that sense because all her stories seem crafted to help inflate her dangerous-ness and keep everyone at arm's length - sure, they may well be true, but Jack pretty much confesses to using her past to keep Shepard away if he chases her romantically because she doesn't want to be hurt in ways she can't just bandage up and seek bloody vengeance). We know that the first people that found her used her and spat her out - if she tried to get any help, she wouldn't get it there. Then she was sold into slavery - was she going to get any help there either? And as soon as someone found out she could do things no other biotic could, in that kind of environment, would anyone ever help her? Nope. She got stuck being a blunt force tool for others; bought, sold, traded, used to the bone and then ended up in the judicial system somewhere because she was used for crime. She gets tossed in a cell somewhere - is her little whisper for mercy going to effect anyone? Jack so much wasn't turned into a monster as much as put in a position where being a monster was the only way to survive - one that once she finally met someone genuine enough she didn't realise it until he was dead and now has to prop herself up on the flimsy idea he was a user too to stop her heart from breaking altogether. All we know outside of supposition is that she never had a chance to try anything different, because every time Cerberus found her again, she got tossed right into another detention facility until Timmy could find a use for his portable psi-bomb-on-legs. Where did she get shown any mercy? We know she begged for it in Pragia - where was it then? Chances are she begged for it beyond there too - no-one every chose to listen. And if no-one ever listens... will anyone in the future?

In the end, Jack's not a psychopath; she doesn't make members of the crew disappear. As far as we know she never throws her weight about with anyone other than Miranda. She doesn't swan off on Omega and come back two hours later with a collection of credit chits and a severed volus head for a new hat. She just reacts to others; violence is repayed with violence - she does unto others before they can do unto her. The fat and the slow in the herd might get preyed upon if she was out on her own, looking out for number one, but that's part of her trying to survive. Sure, it's not right, and it certainly needs correcting somehow, but it's all she knows. She needs a place to stop before she can see a different path, and she won't get that in a meatgrinder prison or in a lab getting poked and prodded or with a bunch of other criminals that just want her to tear vault doors off their hinges with her mind. Shepard is maybe her first chance at it, and it's no surprise there then that the first chance she gets to show mercy is right there on Pragia; sparing the life of someone that wants to start slicing up kids all over again (ok, he's not likely to be able to do it, but is that liable to matter in Jack's mind). And if Shep romances her, she actually puts herself in harm's way - emotional harm... the kind that leaves invisible scars that never heal. If that isn't the beginnings of her trying to change, damn, I don't know what is.

Asking Jack to forgive and forget is like asking a krogan not to settle an argument with his forehead, or a turian to be flexible and think outside the box (which is probably why Kaidan had such a hard time at Braincamp - his teachers were members of another species with different social structures to humans; they only knew how to teach other turians, not a species they'd just come out of a war with that hadn't ended in the turians bombing them into the stone age - Garrus tells us a "good turian" does his job no matter what, sans compassion, patience, flexibility or mercy). She can though. Shepard obviously can see that or she'd be in restraints the whole time, or like you say, tossed out the airlock. Either on the Renegade line Shep sees a useful tool, a human attack dog that can be given a bone for ripping out a few throats, or a Paragon line where Shep wants to help this killing machine be something else, be someone she maybe always could have been if she'd been given the chance. It's not going to happen all on its own though. Expecting a wild animal to just domesticate on it's own is total wishful thinking.

[Ryzaki]

That's just what Jack is though to some people: A wild animal. Which is why I find it so bloody mindboggling she's a forced recruit.  Yeah I get it she's there to tell us "Cerberus is badz" but...I didn't need her to tell me that. I already knew it from ME1.

...I know the real reason though. BW just wanted teh drama between Miranda and Jack. <_< 

Frankly I would've prefered the Mordin and Grunt convo.

Though...I wonder how that arguement would've gone down had Jack turned on Shep first? 

...How am I kidding? It would've been hilarious.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:15 .

[GodWood]

Shavon wrote...
I'm going to retract the term 'psychopath' and replace it with ' a person who is mentally unstable. Psychopath is a specific term, and I don't think it can apply to Jack's character.

[ShrinkingFish]

I actually always viewed Miranda as being in the wrong on this one. She seems to purposefully antagonize Jack instead of diffusing the situation. She doesn't even admit what they did to Jack was wrong, she just keeps denying any accountability for the incident.



As if the Illusive Man isn't responsible for all the atrocities that happen in his organization just because "I had no idea this was happening".



I mean he sets these cells up with impossible tasks, demands they get it right and then turns his back on them while demanding results. Almost every single one of his projects that we see in Mass Effect end with something horrible and appalling and he always denies accountability.



Miranda is perpetuating this lie. It is not her lie but it is still a lie. And Jack shouts at her for her complacency. And she does not once apologize for what they did to Jack. Just keeps saying "It was a rogue group".



Though, I picked the "Sole Survivor" back story. So I could relate to being abused by Cerberus rather well.

[achwas]

Mondo47 wrote...

Asking Jack to forgive and forget is like asking a krogan not to settle an argument with his forehead, or a turian to be flexible and think outside the box (which is probably why Kaidan had such a hard time at Braincamp - his teachers were members of another species with different social structures to humans; they only knew how to teach other turians, not a species they'd just come out of a war with that hadn't ended in the turians bombing them into the stone age - Garrus tells us a "good turian" does his job no matter what, sans compassion, patience, flexibility or mercy). She can though. Shepard obviously can see that or she'd be in restraints the whole time, or like you say, tossed out the airlock. Either on the Renegade line Shep sees a useful tool, a human attack dog that can be given a bone for ripping out a few throats, or a Paragon line where Shep wants to help this killing machine be something else, be someone she maybe always could have been if she'd been given the chance. It's not going to happen all on its own though. Expecting a wild animal to just domesticate on it's own is total wishful thinking.

An interesting take on Jack. but....

hmm, wild animals do not have self-awareness or the ability to consciously reflect on their actions. Lacking sapience is a major hurdle there. And Jack knows her actions to be morally wrong contemptible, wrong and outside the norm, but excuses herself by saying she had it hard, so now she has moral leeway to do as she likes.
Sounds self-aware and even conscious of her sociopathic action to me. And usually, sufferers from abuse shy away from inflicting it on others, except for those who view it as "normal". Which she doesn't.. Which to me makes it more of an apologist deflection of feeling guilt, rather than a true trauma.

Much of your post is supposition though. Possible but basically speculative.

If TIM had such a frightful temper and reputation, I guess a lot of talented and moral people would not consider working for him in the first place. Say everyone else on the Normandy...  Miranda is actually very defensive of his character and general well-meaning, although to her TIM is a father figure, making her biased. Mordin has obviously heard of him and has a firm idea for who he will be temporarily working, without any actual need to do so, but neither voices hesitation about doing so, nor expects an "inevitable betrayal" by the evil human mastermind.
Neither Anderson or Udina view him as monster, who should be brought to justice, trying to enlist Shepard's help for that or arresting known agents like Miranda when they have the chance. And both Anderson and Udina embraced the viability of the "Spectre" concept in ME-1,  short-circuiting legal processes for swifter judgements, hence making an arrest/takedown for the "Greater Good" morally possible

So, by circumstantial evidence, which is a bit more substantial than hypothetical speculation, one gets the picture that Cerberus is in fact painted in stark colours, but not generally the monsters Jack depicts and needs them to be to vindicate herself


As for Jack - the general populace of Purgatory seems to be aware of her presence and are _very_much afraid of her. So much, that some would rather stay in that hellhole instead of considering purchase alongside her. Since she resides  in cryo-sleep, she must have earned her reputation before incarceration, leading to the conclusion that she has not at all been hiding her powers, and therby made herself helpless and exploitable. rather, she obviously seems to have used them to full effect and for criminal mayhem before, earning her that reputation. And making Cryo-storage an atttractive option to incarcerate her.

We also know for a fact, that Jack is in important parts of the narrative mistaken or even delusional about her past on Pragia, as witnessed by the other survivor and the remaining video-logs.



One last glitch - since Jack's combative powers seem to have been strongly developed at the time of  her escape from Pragia, I can't really envision her being "used" and sold into slavery by any chance rescuers, because  basically, each and everyone of those would have ended up as pulp in the airlock if she was ever conscious during that experience.
Blackmailing her by threatening innocent third parties wouldn't really work for her, neither would emotional leverage. I might have missed some exotic biotic-suppressant technology of the ME-verse, but would any chance rescuers have had that stuff at hand anyway ? If she had been conscious, even if partially drugged, she would have had control of her  biotics... whcih are supposed to be rare enough not to be suspected in every chance stranger one meets. So how are these "nefarious rescuers" supposed to have pulled it off ?

If I had read that part of her story in a legal disposition or even as part of a TV-crime-drama, I would certainly have raised an eyebrow and investigated some further. It seems so.... out of character for Jack to suffer through something like that, especially immediately after having gained her freedom through violent rebellion.

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Nightwriter]

I don't think we can just go and compare Jack to an animal who doesn't know any better. I feel such a statement carries the same emotional message as "boys will be boys".

Jack needs for you to be understanding of her flaws, but not for you to be an enabler.

[achwas]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Miranda is perpetuating this lie. It is not her lie but it is still a lie. And Jack shouts at her for her complacency. And she does not once apologize for what they did to Jack. Just keeps saying "It was a rogue group".
.

What "lie" precisely ? A lie is a conscious distortion of known truth, aimed at a different conclusion. There is very little in the game that supports TIM and Miranda actually knowing different from what they claim.

Hmm, she also states "you were obviously mistake". That may viewed as an insult, if one actually and deliberately wants to, but I always understood it as referring to the Pragia Project and what was done to Jack.
She also seems genuinely shocked and disgusted at the Pragia facilities modus operandi if taken along for that mission.

As for accountability - if noone ever goes rogue and acts against orders or internal guidelines, does that make Alliance government criminally accountable for the Hannibal V.I./A.I. project in ME-1 ? TIM is basically in the same set of shoes with "Overlord".
Although ...his message of congratulations if you actually keep the autistic brother locked into the machine and facing further abuse is... sort of creeping me out.

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:18 .

[KendallX23]

they are both in the wrong on this one and i am not surprised it ended in a confrontation....Jack is angry at what she found and Miranda is the closest to the Illusive Man....but barging like that like Miranda had anything to do with the experiments is wrong...

Miranda always treated Jack as a liability...and worse nothing more then a mistake...didn't take her on Peragia but besides that she shows no symphaty for what happened to Jack..

[Mondo47]

Hey, feel free to disagree with me Achwas - that's where healthy debate comes from. I think I'm right, you think you're right. We'll never convince one another on some points, and yep, a lot of what I said is supposition - never claimed otherwise - but it's what makes sense to me. We're in danger of derailing the point of this thread though - if you want to debate this, come on over to the Jack thread, make your points there.

I'll just close on this though. Imagine you live all your life in a box; a box with a window where you see other kids and you are ingnored, save on the occasions where you are goaded with chemicals and pain to fight them. That's the only time you come out of your box - save when the men come and take you out and cut you open and stitch you shut. Agan. And again. And again. For Christ knows how long. Nothing but pain, misery and the box.

Then one day you get out of the box. You discover you can lash out and crush those that get in your way. So you hammer through them all to find that outside the box is a whole world - going on as far as the eye can see in every direction; you were tiny before, now you're completely insignificant, a grain of sand on a beach. Alone completely in a place so vast you can't find words to describe it.

You get out into the sky and space beyond and... well, you go from insignificant to nothing. You could drift forever out here in the blackness, because you're alone. And then the other ship comes. You find people; people with no scalpels or machines or prods or drugs. You're not alone! And these people aren't the people that hurt you. maybe they won't - maybe they are nice. Maybe you want them to be nice so much you don't show them you can turn people into pretzels with your brain. You just are away from the box and the hurt and the isolation. It must be like going to heaven...

But it's not. It's just another box. Different ways to hurt you. Different scars left behind. And it just leads to another box. And another. And another. And another...  Getting out of the box changed nothing. You're still in hell. It follows you wherever you go. There's no escape from it. It's your lot in life. You might not make it easy for them along the way, but it's not going to change based on your experiences. May as well make the owners of the boxes suffer. And everyone else in the box with you. Because they might be bigger boxes, but you're always inside one... the universe - it's just your box with a window still. And it's time to be hurt again.

And again. And again...

That's all I can see when I think about the character... maybe being older, being a parent, and because of some life experiences I can only look at it a certain way. But that's how I end up seeing Jack, and it's why I have so much patience for the character. It's an uphill struggle with me, yep I'm not saying I can't be convinced to see it another way, I'm just saying it'll take more.

[achwas]

Mondo47 wrote...

Hey, feel free to disagree with me Achwas - that's where healthy debate comes from. I think I'm right, you think you're right. We'll never convince one another on some points, and yep, a lot of what I said is supposition - never claimed otherwise - but it's what makes sense to me. We're in danger of derailing the point of this thread though - if you want to debate this, come on over to the Jack thread, make your points there.

.....

That's all I can see when I think about the character... maybe being older, being a parent, and because of some life experiences I can only look at it a certain way. But that's how I end up seeing Jack, and it's why I have so much patience for the character. It's an uphill struggle with me, yep I'm not saying I can't be convinced to see it another way, I'm just saying it'll take more.

Nawh, I neither want to derail the thread, nor jump into the puddle of sharks that the Jack thread is. Let's close this^^

Since I am not a stripling either, and looking at my own life's encounzers and impressions and the people I have met, including professionally several which showed traits of "jack- ishness" for far .... more convincing reasons (which also included pseudo-memories) , I disagree with you. 
Ultimately because she refuses to change into something more bearable and acceptable even for herself, while fully aware of the possibility, while aware what she does is not right . I reserve pity for those powerless to change something, not for those who do not care to.

That's why I'd never side with Jack, the biotic sociopath over Miranda in the loyalty-check scene, howver much Miranda's smug superiority ticks me off. Even with my fully renegade, "glows-in the-dark" Shep. Because even that Paragon of nastiness wouldn't want a by default uncontrollable element like her on board. Especially since she seems incabale of the logical remedy, isolating herself and picking a life of seclusion - where she cannot be hurt and thus have peace.

There might also be the strong disappointment in me. in how they picked the "Jack" theme from "Riddick" (who basically would have made an interesting, even cool, Kasumi-like companion and a suitably renegade tough bi***  for the team ) and mangled it into something utterly illogical, hate-filled  and broken, at least from where I stand. A squandered opportunity

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Iwakura-Lain]

Personally, I loved that confrontation. Suppressing for a moment my inner gloating over seeing the cheerleader put in her place, I loved that scene because it, well, vicariously deals with a matter Shepard should have been dealing with herself. I mean, what has been done specifically to Jack was horrible, of course; but, in the larger frame of things, why did Shepard herself never really question Cerberus? It could just as easily have been Shepard barging into Miranda's office, after doing Jack's loyalty mission, questioning Miranda and her whole shady organization. She never did, of course; but the fact that someone did, I applaud.

[Iwakura-Lain]

KendallX23 wrote...

they are both in the wrong on this one and i am not surprised it ended in a confrontation....Jack is angry at what she found and Miranda is the closest to the Illusive Man....but barging like that like Miranda had anything to do with the experiments is wrong....

Why is that considered wrong? Miranda was not herself, linea recta, responsible for what happened to Jack; but it's people like Miranda who make up an organization like Cerberus. And as the nearest thing to a being representative of Cerberus, I say Jack had every right, moral and otherwise, to wax Miranda behind her ears about all of it.

[Errol Dnamyx]

Although Miranda tries to provoke Jack, I believe it is the right thing to side with Miranda in the scene.

1. Jack came to Mirandas office to start it.

2. Jack threatened to kill her.

3. Jack used her biotics to attack Miranda.



I´m not saying that Miranda is innocent, but my Shepards usually take her side.