135 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

Hey! We're a puddle of sharks, Jackolytes!

Seriously though, Achwas, I can see where you're coming from there. I don't agree with it, but I can see the argument and accept it. Ask Jack on Purgatory why she hates Cerberus so much though; it's because every time she runs they send mercs after her to sling her back in another "temporary holding facility" until Timmy decides what to do with his Gal Frankenstein... even if she did go hide up a mountain somewhere, someone would come and drag her back eventually. As for changing her path... someone's got to show her how. Without that, why change the one thing that's assured her survival? Sure, it's abhorrent, but Jack has no recourse - an alternative has never been demonstrated to her that wasn't just her being used again.

It's a bit like running to Cerberus for Miranda in a way; Miranda ran somewhere her father didn't dare send anyone to get her back - it was easier just to make another one. Jack has the other side of the coin - there's nowhere safe from Cerberus's tentacles because she's so unique, so she makes the best she can of existance, as ugly as that might be.

[achwas]

Iwakura-Lain wrote...

KendallX23 wrote...

they are both in the wrong on this one and i am not surprised it ended in a confrontation....Jack is angry at what she found and Miranda is the closest to the Illusive Man....but barging like that like Miranda had anything to do with the experiments is wrong....

Why is that considered wrong? Miranda was not herself, linea recta, responsible for what happened to Jack; but it's people like Miranda who make up an organization like Cerberus. And as the nearest thing to a being representative of Cerberus, I say Jack had every right, moral and otherwise, to wax Miranda behind her ears about all of it.

Because "responsibility" has everything to do with the awareness of and ability to change, prevent or have others avoid the thing one is to be held responsible for ?
And nothing with incidental relation or membership in a larger organisation..... Unless of course someone is immaturely trying to vent and needs some sort of scapegoat readily available
I recommend not trying do so with.... say a  random police-officers just because one gets "mistakenly" towed or does not agree with a fine:police:

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Iwakura-Lain]

achwas wrote...

Because "responsibility" has everything to do with the awareness of and ability to change, prevent or have others avoid the thing one is to be held responsible for ?
And nothing with incidental relation or membership in a larger organisation..... Unless of course someone is immaturely trying to vent and needs some sort of scapegoat readily available
I recommend not trying do so with.... say a  random police-officers just because one gets "mistakenly" towed or does not agree with a fine:police:

Except the Police don't generally torture you and force you to kill the other children, and commit all other kinds of sick experiments on you for as long as you can remember. You know, people tend to get surprisingly 'immature' when they run into a representative of these practices.

[achwas]

Iwakura-Lain wrote...
Except the Police don't generally torture you and force you to kill the other children, and commit all other kinds of sick experiments on you for as long as you can remember. You know, people tend to get surprisingly 'immature' when they run into a representative of these practices.

That is a question of degree, not a question of responsibility. It affects your desire to lash out, but does nothing about responsibility or accountability. I wanted to pick a common, everyday occurence as an example,

And anyway, you'd be surprised as to what police-officers get accused off these days, legitimately or not, as par-for-the-course. Systematic torture is definitely among it ! Sometimes, the accusations may even be right, depending upon the police-force and the nation.... but then you tar everyone with the same brush ?

Venting and (violently) accusing or even assaulting someone who is not directly or indirectly responsible for the basic injustice is just.... self-serving and foolish
Go disagree with me over it. but have you ever been at the receiving end of such an unjustified tirade and liked it ?

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Barrendall]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

Although Miranda tries to provoke Jack, I believe it is the right thing to side with Miranda in the scene.
1. Jack came to Mirandas office to start it.
2. Jack threatened to kill her.
3. Jack used her biotics to attack Miranda.

I´m not saying that Miranda is innocent, but my Shepards usually take her side.

Yes Jack did threaten to kill her, but the rest of your statements are speculation in my opinion.  Nothing wrong with that mind you. (I speculated that TIM knew much more about the Pragia experiment than he claimed) But it's still speculation nonetheless.  We still don't know exactly where the argument started or who started it.  I'm not sure Jack was actually attacking Miranda.  If I remember right she grabbed a piece of furniture and threw it at the wall.  Miranda was in close enough proximity why didn't Jack use her biotics and throw her against the wall?  It seems more a fit of anger and a demonstration than an actual attack.  I'm not condoning her abuse of other peoples property, but I think if Jack was going to attack Miranda it would be more direct and hands on.

[Pacifien]

I agree that Jack wasn't attacking Miranda, as it would have been a sloppy attack if that were the case. She's puffing her mane, flicking her tail, snarling her teeth is what she's doing. If all it took was a casual step to the side to avoid Jack's attacks, then I wouldn't worry too much about her threats. I'm not saying threatening to kill someone and throwing chairs is right, I just think the motivation applied to it is open to interpretation.

It's up to our imaginations really as to why that fight was occurring. Seems obvious enough to me what might have been the trigger if Pragia was the second mission you were doing. But then what if Illium was second? Miranda goes to save her sister and suddenly Jack is starting **** with her?

In my games, Pragia is second, so it makes sense to me that Jack started the fight. Miranda continued the fight with a few low blows that were uncalled for. It's like when I moderate around here: you're not allowed to troll, but those who respond back to trolls aren't absolved of their behavior simply because someone else started it first. Jack gets banned for the day and Miranda gets as strong a warning as I can muster with zero chances left before she gets banned for the day. They both suck.

[Mondo47]

There's one thing that always strikes me about that thrown chair... Clive Dunn on valium could have dodged that. If Jack really wanted to smash Miri's brains out with it, going on her track record which is a cornerstone of this debate in some ways, she would have just done it. As far as actual harm done and potential threat to Miranda's person, it's pretty nonexistant. It's little more than a tantrum. Same goes for her saying she wants to kill her - people say a lot of things when they're angry; unless they turn up dead later, it's not really a promise of intent. If she really wanted her dead, Jack'd find a way to make it happen. In that respect the Normandy wouldn't be any different from a prison yard... I'd be shocked it the first thing Jack did when she went down to the sub-deck as soon as she got on board was make a couple of shivs before she started checking out how the escape pods work.

[achwas]

Mondo47 wrote...

There's one thing that always strikes me about that thrown chair...
..... If she really wanted her dead, Jack'd find a way to make it happen. In that respect the Normandy wouldn't be any different from a prison yard....

There is a biotic flicker around Miranda when the chair flies past her - guess she "slaped" it away with loyalty power perhaps. Nice pun with the chair "striking you" btw
And Jack promises Shep to kill Miranda only after the (suicide-)mission, so I guess even the grave can't keep a p****d off Jack in check^^ :O:O

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Ryzaki]

And the throwing the chair around looks even more like a childish tantrum.

[Mondo47]

Yeah, but there's nothing to say she'll actually deliver on that promise... why wait until she's expecting it? It's a bit giving for a psychotic killing machine...

Ah, I dunno, I just don't buy there being any hostility beyond attitude and stepped on feelings. Things like that fizzle out given time and the right environment, and the Normandy offers that I'd like to think. I've used the analogy before, but Miri and Jack remind me of Herzog and Kinski; all the threats to kill one another, one being logical and passionate and the other being chaotic and batsh*t crazy at times, but at the end of the day way too similar to actually finish the job off... because they know that in some ways they're too damn alike. Besides, bickering characters make for great dialogue in future episodes!

[Ryzaki]

Hm...I think its more the fact that if Jack actually did such a thing Shep would have more the enough reason to kick her off the ship at least (and renegade Shep would probably out and out kill her). And ra forbid ME2 let us dismiss companions. You have to go out of your way to kill Zaeed on his loyatly mission.

I'm not sure about that. I get the feeling if left to their own devices one of them probably would end up being dead. And they don't bicker as much as Jack rants and Miranda tries to defend herself. The whole you were a mistake wasn't an insult to me as much as a fact. Jack was a mistake. She should never have been created. Yes Cerberus can be seen to be at fault (its speculation) and sure Miranda does so posturing in the first convo but I believed that was because (rightly) Miranda saw Jack as a threat to the safety of the ship.

...gah. All my problems with Jack stem from her not being optional! Egads!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:37 .

[axl99]

Thing is, Jack wasn't created. She was taken from her family as an infant. It's far more accurate to say what happened to Jack was a mistake.

The Teltin project should never have existed- and by extension, TIM should never have let it run the way it did.

Miranda's retort is as good as admitting another case of Cerberus screwing up and failing to wash their hands of it [they were still cleaning up shop right after Jack's mission on Pragia if that weren't enough].

If Jack really wanted to compromise the mission altogether, early on in the game right after she got what she wanted she could've just ripped apart the Normandy from the inside out and ran out the escape pods while it blew up. She's literally in the perfect position to do that, in the sub-engine deck. She's read the escape procedures [twice], checked up on weather and grabbed maps of all the alliance-controlled areas. She could've jumped ship anytime she wanted, but left to her own devices?

Jack simply sits down there and wanders the extranet to read or play poker for crying out loud LOL!

Modifié par axl99, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Ryzaki]

axl99 wrote...

Thing is, Jack wasn't created. She was taken from her family as an infant. It's far more accurate to say what happened to Jack was a mistake.

The Teltin project should never have existed- and by extension, TIM should never have let it run the way it did.

Miranda's retort is as good as admitting another case of Cerberus screwing up and failing to wash their hands of it [they were still cleaning up shop right after Jack's mission on Pragia if that weren't enough].

If Jack really wanted to compromise the mission altogether, early on in the game right after she got what she wanted she could've just ripped apart the Normandy from the inside out and ran out the escape pods while it blew up. She's literally in the perfect position to do that, in the sub-engine deck. She's read the escape procedures [twice], checked up on weather and grabbed maps of all the alliance-controlled areas. She could've jumped ship anytime she wanted, but left to her own devices?

Jack simply sits down there and wanders the extranet to read or play poker for crying out loud LOL!

Inaccurate true but it's also far more accurate for Jack to blame the rogue splinter cell and not Cerberus as a whole. Both of them were off target.

There's no proof that TIM knew what exactly was going on. Its fun to speculate but there's no proof either way.

Game mechanics. IF she had done that Shep would've been able to shoot her in the head. And for some reason we couldn't do that. <_< If she had just left people would've QQ'd. "Why'd she leave!" etc, etc. Frankly I would've been fine with her leaving. That said my Shep wouldn't have ever placed her on his ship.

Also: Certain people wouldn't have placed her on the ship in the first place and that her attacking or running away would've been more railroading than there already is. It's bad enough I have to deal with TIM.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Pacifien]

Ryzaki wrote...
...gah. All my problems with Jack stem from her not being optional! Egads!

Jack's the least of my problems when it comes to elements of the game that are not optional. While she must be recruited, her existence can be ignored. She's even relatively easy to kill.

[Ryzaki]

Pacifien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...gah. All my problems with Jack stem from her not being optional! Egads!

Jack's the least of my problems when it comes to elements of the game that are not optional. While she must be recruited, her existence can be ignored. She's even relatively easy to kill.

Eh. I don't mind the other wallbangers as much. (Working with Cerberus could've been solved with a simple quest before FP.

...Though walking into that trap with Shep acting like he was wearing a DUNCE cap was facepalm worthy.

Most of the other non-optional things don't involve recuiting people that can endanger the Shep (other than the CS).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Pacifien]

Ryzaki wrote...
Inaccurate true but it's also far more accurate for Jack to blame the rogue splinter cell and not Cerberus as a whole. Both of them were off target.

There's no proof that TIM knew what exactly was going on. Its fun to speculate but there's no proof either way.

Oh, I totally blame the Illusive Man and Cerberus as a whole. I don't buy the rogue splinter cell crap in the slightest. Obviously, neither does Jack.

Of course, discussing why I don't buy into it is fodder enough for its own thread. And it has its own thread. It has many threads. Cerberus threads are all over these forums.

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Collider]

My main problem with the intimidate/charm/side with Jack options is that it basically enables Jack.

Intimidate and Charm option seem to say "This is a distraction - go kill each other after the mission!" As a Shepard who would rather not have Jack or Miranda needlessly die, I would not choose these. If Charm and Intimidate (or one of them) had instead have noted Jack's unnecessary aggression and Miranda's bad attitude, then I'd surely pick that, because it addresses the problems both of them had in the fight.



Siding with Jack seems to enable her violent nature and ignores the reason for the fight. Shepard literally says that "Jack is doing just fine," when Miranda says that Jack is jeopardizing the mission (which she is).



As someone on a high risk critical mission, I don't believe Shepard should be enabling someone to be needlessly violent and aggressive to people on the ship. We need those people to survive the mission and protect the human race. Shepard doesn't need Jack repeating her aggression on another team member because she hasn't been told that it's not acceptable.



So far as the "you were a mistake" comment goes - you can interpret this one in different ways. It could be a "you should have never been born" (ouch), you should have never been bothered with (ouch), or something more innocuous like they should have never experimented on you. While fanning the flames as Miranda did isn't intelligent or very sympathetic, I doubt that Jack hadn't insulted Miranda left and right both during and before the fight.



And if you do side with Miranda? Miranda apologizes for her role in the fight, quietly and without any arrogance. So for those who didn't like the "you were a mistake" comment, Miranda seems to recognize it was wrong for her to say that and apologizes for it. If you side with Jack, if I recall, all you get is a "I agree" Because Jack probably doesn't believe she did anything wrong and Shepard certainly didn't say that Jack did anything wrong.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
And if you do side with Miranda? Miranda apologizes for her role in the fight, quietly and without any arrogance. So for those who didn't like the "you were a mistake" comment, Miranda seems to recognize it was wrong for her to say that and apologizes for it.

Nah, I'd say even that's up for interpretation. I've apologized many times for letting a situation get out of hand while still meaning every word I said during the argument.

[Mondo47]

Collider wrote...

Siding with Jack seems to enable her violent nature and ignores the reason for the fight. Shepard literally says that "Jack is doing just fine," when Miranda says that Jack is jeopardizing the mission (which she is).

Now that's one facet of the argument I've never fully understood. Just how is she jeopardizing the mission? All she's doing is throwing a strop. She's not trying to sabotage the ship, she's not trying to harm the Commander, she's not sending coded messages to the enemy... just what is she doing other than getting in Miranda's face? Is being an abbraisive element enought to ensure failure? Or are Miranda's report-filing skills truly vital to stopping the Collectors?

Never before in the field of galactic conflict, was so much owed by so many to the typing skills of one genetically-perfect woman...

[Collider]

That would be in antagonizing another squad member and therefore lessening squad cohesion because of an issue with her pride.



That said, Miranda is guilty of lessening squad cohesion as well in her "you were a mistake" comment, but in a lesser way. I can forgive Miranda somewhat because she apologizes, even if it's up to interpretation as Pacifien said in what exactly she is apologizing for.

[tonnactus]

Its not clear if miranda didnt "invited" jack in her room. Maybee this was even provoked. I would bet that.
I always side with jack anyway to get rid of this annoyance in the final mission but still getting the smg and medigel upgrades.

[achwas]

Pacifien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...gah. All my problems with Jack stem from her not being optional! Egads!

Jack's the least of my problems when it comes to elements of the game that are not optional. While she must be recruited, her existence can be ignored. She's even relatively easy to kill.

yeah, just skimp on the paragon/renegade check right there and then^^ The collectors will do their very best to solve your problems.

Shame she is so extremely useful for the SM part II

[Ryzaki]

^Not really Samara/Morinth can do her job without all the drama and needless antagonism. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Collider]

tonnactus wrote...

Its not clear if miranda didnt "invited" jack in her room. Maybee this was even provoked. I would bet that.
I always side with jack anyway to get rid of this annoyance in the final mission but still getting the smg and medigel upgrades.

Miranda and Jack both have reasons not to want to speak to each other in any capacity. I just rely on what is shown in the cutscene. 

[tonnactus]

Collider wrote...

Miranda and Jack both have reasons not to want to speak to each other in any capacity. I just rely on what is shown in the cutscene. 

But when shepardt is near,miranda could staged such a scene. She is for sure capable of that.