135 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

tonnactus wrote...

Collider wrote...

Miranda and Jack both have reasons not to want to speak to each other in any capacity. I just rely on what is shown in the cutscene. 

But when shepardt is near,miranda could staged such a scene. She is for sure capable of that.

Sure she could have - just as Jack could have started the fight. 

[Mondo47]

Collider wrote...

That would be in antagonizing another squad member and therefore lessening squad cohesion because of an issue with her pride.
 

Pride? You think it's Jack's pride that takes her up there?

[KendallX23]

Jack is too angry for pride.....

[achwas]

Ryzaki wrote...

^Not really Samara/Morinth can do her job without all the drama and needless antagonism. 

yeah, Samara can bubble... but I was thinking more of the shockwave of hers

[Ryzaki]

achwas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^Not really Samara/Morinth can do her job without all the drama and needless antagonism. 

yeah, Samara can bubble... but I was thinking more of the shockwave of hers

Can't Adept! Shep do that?  (Likes playing adepts). Besides it's not necessary. Convienent. But not necessary.

[achwas]

Ryzaki wrote...

achwas wrote...

yeah, Samara can bubble... but I was thinking more of the shockwave of hers

Can't Adept! Shep do that?  (Likes playing adepts). Besides it's not necessary. Convenient. But not necessary.

Adept and Vanguard Shepard can - Infiltrator Shepard (my main, Patience) and Engineer Shepard (Boomer Shepard, sole survivor of many reactor mishaps) cannot, and then the waves of Husks get really annoying on hardcore+^^ Wish one could affect gun-targeting of the companios slightly more efficiently.

That part of the battle is Jack's finest hour. Fortunately she can do it without being loyal

PS - in a way it is deeply ironic that Jack is actually much better at making defensive bubbles and shocking people than team-roiented Miranda, who rather warps or overloads everybody. Quite poetic, even

[Ryzaki]

achwas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

achwas wrote...

yeah, Samara can bubble... but I was thinking more of the shockwave of hers

Can't Adept! Shep do that?  (Likes playing adepts). Besides it's not necessary. Convenient. But not necessary.

Adept and Vanguard Shepard can - Infiltrator Shepard (my main, Patience) and Engineer Shepard (Boomer Shepard, sole survivor of many reactor mishaps) cannot, and then the waves of Husks get really annoying on hardcore+^^ Wish one could affect gun-targeting of the companios slightly more efficiently.

That part of the battle is Jack's finest hour. Fortunately she can do it without being loyal

PS - in a way it is deeply ironic that Jack is actually much better at making defensive bubbles and shocking people than team-roiented Miranda, who rather warps or overloads everybody. Quite poetic, even

Husks. HELL IS THAT NOISE!

Sorry...I just hate that...shriek thing they do. And then they swarm!   And those bastards always swarm Shepard! It's like he's wearing a giant "AIM HERE" sign on his forehead!

I just have my adept shep use the Shockwave (nothing is more hilarious then using improved shockwave in the CB on the husks near the end) It's like bowling.

I usually take Garrus and Miranda with me because I think they're awesome. (Unless I'm in the CB (I'm finally starting to take Miranda there but that mask just...urgh *facepalms* or Tali's loyalty in which I'll take Tali and Garrus who actually...wear something similar to armor).

Fighting husks with soldiers is hell. It's why I stopped using that class.

And yes it is a bit ironic.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:18 .

[ShrinkingFish]

achwas wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Miranda is perpetuating this lie. It is not her lie but it is still a lie. And Jack shouts at her for her complacency. And she does not once apologize for what they did to Jack. Just keeps saying "It was a rogue group".
.

What "lie" precisely ? A lie is a conscious distortion of known truth, aimed at a different conclusion. There is very little in the game that supports TIM and Miranda actually knowing different from what they claim.

Hmm, she also states "you were obviously mistake". That may viewed as an insult, if one actually and deliberately wants to, but I always understood it as referring to the Pragia Project and what was done to Jack.
She also seems genuinely shocked and disgusted at the Pragia facilities modus operandi if taken along for that mission.

As for accountability - if noone ever goes rogue and acts against orders or internal guidelines, does that make Alliance government criminally accountable for the Hannibal V.I./A.I. project in ME-1 ? TIM is basically in the same set of shoes with "Overlord".
Although ...his message of congratulations if you actually keep the autistic brother locked into the machine and facing further abuse is... sort of creeping me out.

He's the boss. He is accountible for the actions of his people. His choice to not know what his teams are doing is a calculated choice in order to maintain a reasonable denyability. How many of his projects have crossed major ethical boundaries? And does he care? Not a bit. As long as they produce results. Jack was a success up until she escaped their control. He reistablished that control through Shepard and then used Jack for exactly what he created her for.

Project Overlord was also a success. I freed the kid and pistol whipped his scientist brother, wishing I could shoot the bastard and dissappointed that I didn't get a solid Renegade interrupt. The Illusive Man expressed his intense dissappointment in my choice while claiming he knew nothing about what happened there. Just like he did with Pragia, just like he did with Akuze, etc. etc.

Throughout the game both the Illusive Man and Miranda kept on saying "Cerberus isn't as evil as everyone assumes" only to find out that they are, in fact, just as evil as I assumed.

Miranda is indoctrinated in the Illusive Man's lies. She is, perhaps, a victim. Ensnared in the webs of the Illusive Man's making and used as a tool to further his aims. Cerberus' cells operate independantly, with no knowledge of one another. As such, the more nobel and ethical cells (such as Lazerus) are not confronted with the ethical problems of other branches. As such the Illusive Man can assure loyalty of any group of any moral standing by isolating their experience with Cerberus.

Since the Illusive Man never asks them to cross any lines, they assume that Cerberus does not cross those lines, even though, as a whole, the organization does.

As such, Miranda is blind to the reality of Cerberus, Jack is not. Miranda refuses to accept that she is mistaken and so perpetuates the lie of the Illusive Man. For me, this makes her just as accountible as if she was fully complicit in the lie. Ignorance is no excuse and makes one just as responsible as one with malicious intent.

All Miranda has to do in order to difuse the entire fight between them is show a bit of empathy and admit that she was wrong. She refuses to do either and stoicly defends Cerberus from any attack Jack makes, claiming what what they did to her was indeed horrible, but that it wasn't Cerberus. Even though it was.

As such, I blame Miranda for the fight. Jack was wronged, horribly, she was lashing out, understandably. Miranda perpetuated the conflict out of pride instead of attempting to empathize and reach a mutual understanding. She did this because empathizing would require her to change her outlook on Cerberus and admit that she was wrong in her judgement of them.

Then again. I'm a bit of a cynic. And I have no sympathy for liars or those who spread lies out of ignorance.

[Iwakura-Lain]

achwas wrote...

Venting and (violently) accusing or even assaulting someone who is not directly or indirectly responsible for the basic injustice is just.... self-serving and foolish

Go disagree with me over it. but have you ever been at the receiving end of such an unjustified tirade and liked it ?

You seem to throw words like 'injustice', 'foolish', and 'immature' around as easily as Jack throws people like a toy. I see things a bit differently.

First of all, let's indeed examine 'responsibility.' For instance, I personally know people who have left the Roman Catholic Church because of all the ongoing child-abuse scandals. Whilst not themselves directly responsible for such acts, they nonetheless felt they could not, in good conscience, remain part of an organization which does these kinds of things. Not saying Miranda should leave Cerberus; and I don't profess to fully understanding the Cerberus hierarchy (though Miranda told us it's modelled after the Alliance); but Miranda is a staunch supporter of Cerberus, and TIM in particular, and she's herself pretty high up in the organization (for one, because she has access to relevant Cereberus files). As such Miranda, while not directly responsible for what happened to Jack, is certainly in a position where a survivor of one of Cerberus sick experiments has a legitimate bone to pick with her, whether you like to admit it or not.

What caused their little cat fight? After Pragia one could simply answer 'Pragia.' Could also simply be Jack discovered something in the the Cerberus files that set her off. Whatever the case may be, I say a confrontation between the two was inevitable.

Also, you have no idea whether it was "an unjustified tirade." Perhaps Jack merely went to Miranda's office for clarification on some matters, and Miranda gave the 'wrong' answers (which is to say, she wasn't willing to admit any wrongdoing on the part of Cerberus towards Jack, or some such). We simply don't know what caused the escalation -- but I wouldn't put it all on Jack.

As I stated earlier, Jack's altercation with Miranda, while it stands out in the game as an anomaly, in reality it would be ere the other way around, in that it's rather amazing Shepard goes along with Cerberus so complacently; in real life most all Alliance folks would have serious issues with Cerberus, and only a handful, not seeing the harm in teaming up with them, would be the exception. Much like Shepard's death, her joining Cerberus is one of things Bioware apparently just wanted us to take for granted. Whether that's good story-telling or no is another matter; but please don't cry for the cheerleader, simply because Jack had the audacity to confront her with Cerberus.

Modifié par Iwakura-Lain, 28 octobre 2010 - 01:18 .

[Nightwriter]

Oh, sure. Jack went up there and said, "Excuse me Miss Miranda, it would be ever so wonderful if you could give me a helpful explanation of Cerberus structure, thank you ever so much."

Jack's tirade was a logically unjustified tirade, but an emotionally justified tirade. And even if it's emotionally justified, that emotion shouldn't be directed at Miranda of all people.

Miranda joined Cerberus to escape her father. It's literally the only life she's known away from him. It was her shelter. She wants to believe in it. She's as blind about Cerberus as Jack is about Cerberus's cell structure. She could no more blame Miranda for Pragia than Kelly.

[Collider]

I think Jack sees Miranda as the "face" of Cerberus and therefore directs her hate towards her as a result.

[Nightwriter]

And that is wrong. Understandable, but wrong.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

I think Jack sees Miranda as the "face" of Cerberus and therefore directs her hate towards her as a result.

The odd thing is can't a renegade Shep be just as supportive of Cerberus' practices? 

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
Miranda joined Cerberus to escape her father. It's literally the only life she's known away from him. It was her shelter. She wants to believe in it. She's as blind about Cerberus as Jack is about Cerberus's cell structure. She could no more blame Miranda for Pragia than Kelly.

I don't think Jack is privy to the same sort of details we are about why Miranda is with Cerberus.

Jack could have gone to Miranda looking for answers about Pragia, about why Cerberus felt Teltin was necessary, to drill Miranda on what the hell Cerberus is doing at the Ascension Project now. Because, as Nightwriter said, Jack doesn't know Cerberus's cell structure. What Jack can see is that Miranda is the highest-ranking, longest-serving Cerberus personnel on the ship. She has access to the Illusive Man. She must know something.

Only what Jack is going to get by confronting Miranda is that she has nothing to tell. Miranda doesn't have answers about Pragia. The Teltin Cell went rogue. Cerberus only looks out for humanity's interests. It's reeks of middle management apologizing for the bigwigs either because they don't know any better or because they're in on it.

Miranda isn't to blame for what happened to Jack, but she's been put in the position of customer service for all the Cerberus questions and needs here.

Does make me wonder if Miranda gave a second thought to the log that indicated the supposedly rogue cell had intentions to move to the Ascension Project, which is a definite ongoing facility at the time of ME2. Not that it's her jurisdiction.

[GuardianAngel470]

Personally, I would have left the two of them to their devices if we weren't on a space ship. Was Jack targeting Miranda justified? No, but I completely empathize. I can't really say with honesty that if I had been in her position I wouldn't have done the same thing.



Miranda on the other hand would have deserved at least the fight, if not the end result. She showed a complete lack of tact, and leadership skills, in her behavior towards Jack all throughout the game, going so far as to actually try and impose dominance on a personality like Jack's. Seriously, what did she really expect to gain by telling Jack that people followed orders on the Normandy? That not only patronized Jack, but ignored everything we knew about her, even at that point.



Her display of arrogance, to demean what Jack had gone through by refusing to acknowledge the Cerberus connection, whether intentionally or unintentionally is irrelevant, and lack of any empathy set up her own fate.



My shepard just happened to not want a hole in the hull, otherwise I would have let the two of them go at it. Like Garrus said, sometimes the crew just need to blow off steam. In their case I'd probably have Samara moderate to make sure they didn't kill each other.

[achwas]

Iwakura-Lain wrote...

achwas wrote...

Venting and (violently) accusing or even assaulting someone who is not directly or indirectly responsible for the basic injustice is just.... self-serving and foolish

Go disagree with me over it. but have you ever been at the receiving end of such an unjustified tirade and liked it ?

You seem to throw words like 'injustice', 'foolish', and 'immature' around as easily as Jack throws people like a toy. I see things a bit differently.

I do it with the experiences of two decades of legal training and practise. Blame is far easier to allocate than responsibility. Often enough blame is allocated outrageously wrong, and hardly ever fully retracted, even if mistaken. because it is born out of outrage, not rational thought. And this "leaping before thinking" is immature


There is nothing in the ME game that directly implicates TIM, even less so Miranda, who incidentally is only a cell-leader (as EDI explains after the IFF-mission). he is unpleasant, manipulative and probably rather ruthless, same as even a paragonic Shepard. Even Jack, going through the files about Cerberus with full-access, cannot point to one shred of direct proof or even an convincing indication about Pragia doing precisely what TIM and higher Cerberus echelons intended.

The vid logs themselves, never meant as a vindication, state how far the scientists on site knew they were acting in violation of TIMs orders : "If we get results he won't care what we did." "But if he knew..." (the last one utterly fearful). That's not what goons "just following orders" say when faced with an audit.

Go check, it's right at the start of the LM.

Same with Overlord : TIM never asked for people directly mind-linked to the Geth. The premise of the programm was controlling Geth, by direct transmission in their binary language. the aberarrtion occured, when Dr. Archer, afraid he might fail, abused the autist talents of his brother, discovered entirely by chance.
TIM is just less finnicky than public moral outrage about using the results from those tainted scientific experiement, since they appear valid in substance.

And Jack ? Jack twists her memories to vindicate her decisions and attitudes (try the "sweet talk" options to find a prime example ), is obviously at least in part deluded about her memories, even admits that , to quote "I never understood of what happened here", " a lot of this isn't the way I remember it"  and "bull****, they weren't experimenting on other children for my safety" .... and maintains those self-delusions even in the face of factual proof or other survivors. (again, everything quoted verbatim from the LM ) 
Because if she actually faced the facts that things were way more complicated and more grayish, and that she was neither the heroic escapee from Pragia - the other kids actually instigated that uprising - nor the sole victim or even got the worst of it, than she would have to change, and she does not seem to want that. Not at all.

To my mind, the thing that Jack really hates about Miranda is, that she is not directly responsible, highly visible, not remorseful about something she had no part in and almost absolutely rational and in control of herself.

While Jack is the girl, who killed two of her lovers/associates because she had a hunch (!) they might swindle her out of a share from a heist. And brags about it..... Lovable

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Her display of arrogance, to
demean what Jack had gone through by refusing to acknowledge the
Cerberus connection, whether intentionally or unintentionally is
irrelevant, and lack of any empathy set up her own fate.

My
shepard just happened to not want a hole in the hull, otherwise I would
have let the two of them go at it. Like Garrus said, sometimes the crew
just need to blow off steam. In their case I'd probably have Samara
moderate to make sure they didn't kill each other.

Now that is a fething interesting take on things^^  A mediation attempt by and involving  Samara, of all the people aboard, involving Jack... Now that might have been real narrative driven team-building there and then.

Modifié par achwas, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:32 .

[GuardianAngel470]

achwas wrote...

Iwakura-Lain wrote...

achwas wrote...

Venting and (violently) accusing or even assaulting someone who is not directly or indirectly responsible for the basic injustice is just.... self-serving and foolish

Go disagree with me over it. but have you ever been at the receiving end of such an unjustified tirade and liked it ?

You seem to throw words like 'injustice', 'foolish', and 'immature' around as easily as Jack throws people like a toy. I see things a bit differently.

I do it with the experiences of two decades of legal training and practise. Blame is far easier to allocate than responsibility. Often enough blame is allocated outrageously wrong, and hardly ever fully retracted, even if mistaken. because it is born out of outrage, not rational thought. And this "leaping before thinking" is immature


There is nothing in the ME game that directly implicates TIM, even less so Miranda, who incidentally is only a cell-leader (as EDI explains after the IFF-mission). he is unpleasant, manipulative and probably rather ruthless, same as even a paragonic Shepard. Even Jack, going through the files about Cerberus with full-access, cannot point to one shred of direct proof or even an convincing indication about Pragia doing precisely what TIM and higher Cerberus echelons intended.

The vid logs themselves, never meant as a vindication, state how far the scientists on site knew they were acting in violation of TIMs orders : "If we get results he won't care what we did." "But if he knew..." (the last one utterly fearful). That's not what goons "just following orders" say when faced with an audit.

Go check, that's right at the start of the LM.

And Jack ? Jack twists her memories to vindicate her decisions and attitudes (try the "sweet talk" options to find a prime example ), is obviously at least in part deluded about her memories, even admits that , to quote "I never understood of what happened here", " a lot of this isn't the way I remember it"  and "bull****, they weren't experimenting on other children for my safety" .... and maintains those self-delusions even in the face of factual proof or other survivors. (again, everything quoted verbatim from the LM ) 
Because if she actually faced the facts that things were way more complicated and more grayish, and that she was neither the heroic escapee from Pragia - the other kids actually instigated that uprising - nor the sole victim or even got the worst of it, than she would have to change, and she does not seem to want that. Not at all.

To my mind, the thing that Jack really hates about Miranda is, that she is not directly responsible, highly visible, not remorseful about something she had no part in and almost absolutely rational and in control of herself.

While Jack is the girl, who killed two of her lovers/associates because she had a hunch (!) they might swindle her out of a share from a heist. And brags about it..... Lovable

You've never dealt with problems as a child have you? Legal training is only appropriate experience when discussing laws. As there are no laws in play here, you're legal definitions are meaningless.

Jack didn't twist her memories intentionally. As they say, don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. She was young, she was tortured, she was probably a little unhinged, and she was fighting a perceived threat.  You ever been in a fight as a kid? I have, and I can say that half the time, I couldn't remember why I hit the other guy because I was so pissed at whatever happened that I forgot.

In psychology, they have well established reasons for Jack's misremembering. While I don't generally agree with the field of psychology, in this I believe they are correct. When a person doesn't fully remember an event, they start filling in the blanks with logic. After they have, they believe it is what really happened, because the mind tends to believe things it has created itself more easily.

As for TIM being responsible, yes he is. He funded the project even after he lost track of what they were doing. He provided it with test subjects that they burned through fast. He was a willing accomplice, and in legal terms, that makes him guilty.

As for Jack targeting Miranda, it really is partly her fault. She displayed herself as the Cerberus ideal, attempting to impose dominance over Jack the moment she stepped on board. To me, that's just idiotic. We know nothing about her besides the idea that she is psychopathic, and Miranda has the arrogance to try and play alpha female. She also vehemently supports Cerberus, even to Jack's face, which again, is idiotic.

In my mind, Jack is less at fault simply because it is already established that she's prone to violence and unwarranted aggression. It was Miranda that fueled the fire, and she should be above that. I hold her to a higher standard.  I'll take what I can get with you Jack, implies that Shepard, and by extension me, doesn't expect much.

Jack acted out of line, but understandably so. She just visited the place of her torture, any human being would be shaken by that. To walk the same halls you committed your first kills in, the ones you were walked through to get to your newest torture, and the ones that held every bad memory of your entire childhood. She was emotionally unstable at that moment, and Miranda fed it by denying Cerberus' involvement. She could have said absolutely anything. She could have stalled for Shepard to get there, she could have showed some level of empathy, she could have lied. 

A woman as intelligent as her should have known that nothing she could say could calm Jack down, but that there were tons of things she could say that could make it worse.


EDIT: She actually does acknowledge that what she remembered may have been wrong and that the other kids had it bad too. Quoted as verbatim as I could off the top of my head: 

"Maybe the other kids did have it bad, but what you're doing is just messed!"

So there's that part of your argument out the window. She changes, by the end of the mission she changes. It may not be a full change, but can you honestly expect a human being to rewrite their entire childhood in the time it takes to fight through that childhood? That would be extremely unreasonable.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

[achwas]

Ryzaki wrote...

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

Actually it's explicitly said it was Batarian slavers for most of the kids. There is the disturbing Shadow broker File though, which appearantly logs the abduction of Jack as a newlyborn, because of her talents. Given that by timeline of cerberus (again from the Shadowbroker files) this was at the very beginning of activities, even before Pragia was actually started as a programm.

[Ryzaki]

achwas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

Actually it's explicitly said it was Batarian slavers for most of the kids. There is the disturbing Shadow broker File though, which appearantly logs the abduction of Jack as a newlyborn, because of her talents. Given that by timeline of cerberus (again from the Shadowbroker files) this was at the very beginning of activities, even before Pragia was actually started as a programm.

The whole program evolved around turning Jack specifically into a super biotic no? I'm not surprised she was grabbed before they started getting into gear.

But is there any proof that it was TIM himself who organized the Batarians giving the kids to Cerberus? It was Cerberus to be sure but saying TIM did it personally is a bit of a stretch.

And I have to agree with jack's attitude the whole time. Shep's weak way of going "Oh you weren't the only one experimented on." was exasperating.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:38 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Ryzaki wrote...

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

I gathered that from the idea that, especially in the SB dossier for Jack, there were members of Cerberus outside of the Pragia Cell that were providing the children. Jack was taken from her mother due to a lie from the doctor, that would have to go through TIM.

Also, Jack says that some of the children were provided from Batarian slavers, but some were provided by stealing them at birth, like Jack.

EDIT: I believe EDI tells you there is a Cerberus policy of Cells not communicating with each other, thus any communication between cells would by necessity have to go through TIM. 

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:40 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Ryzaki wrote...

achwas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

Actually it's explicitly said it was Batarian slavers for most of the kids. There is the disturbing Shadow broker File though, which appearantly logs the abduction of Jack as a newlyborn, because of her talents. Given that by timeline of cerberus (again from the Shadowbroker files) this was at the very beginning of activities, even before Pragia was actually started as a programm.

The whole program evolved around turning Jack specifically into a super biotic no? I'm not surprised she was grabbed before they started getting into gear.

But is there any proof that it was TIM himself who organized the Batarians giving the kids to Cerberus? It was Cerberus to be sure but saying TIM did it personally is a bit of a stretch.

And I have to agree with jack's attitude the whole time. Shep's weak way of going "Oh you weren't the only one experimented on." was exasperating.

Not proof that he organized it, but it would seem that he authorized the transfer of funds for the purpose of purchasing them, as all funds have to go through him.

[Ryzaki]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

I gathered that from the idea that, especially in the SB dossier for Jack, there were members of Cerberus outside of the Pragia Cell that were providing the children. Jack was taken from her mother due to a lie from the doctor, that would have to go through TIM.

Also, Jack says that some of the children were provided from Batarian slavers, but some were provided by stealing them at birth, like Jack.

EDIT: I believe EDI tells you there is a Cerberus policy of Cells not communicating with each other, thus any communication between cells would by necessity have to go through TIM. 

Is it specifically stated they weren't part of the Pragia cell?

Jack's not exactly the most reliable narrator in this instance. She convientely forgot about the other children starting the riot for one thing.

Hm....interesting. TIM's a far more screwd bastard if so. But if that's the case why the astronomical fear of TIM "finding out" if he already knew everything? And if TIM was fully aware of everything going on why worry about him stopping funding when the project was doing what it was intended. (Making a super biotic). It just doesn't fit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:46 .

[Ryzaki]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Not proof that he organized it, but it would seem that he authorized the transfer of funds for the purpose of purchasing them, as all funds have to go through him.

So how does transferring funds to buy children from Batarian slavers = advocating torture on them? Now that's not to say he wouldn't have expected some experimentation (I'm thinking more of what happened with Kaidan which...actually seems more of a toned down version of Jack.) but the whole breeding her to kill and the like I don't see him as getting behind. If anything he'd have wanted her like Miranda.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Ryzaki wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Full stop. I don't like Cerberus but where in game does it say he provided them with the children to run tests on?

I gathered that from the idea that, especially in the SB dossier for Jack, there were members of Cerberus outside of the Pragia Cell that were providing the children. Jack was taken from her mother due to a lie from the doctor, that would have to go through TIM.

Also, Jack says that some of the children were provided from Batarian slavers, but some were provided by stealing them at birth, like Jack.

EDIT: I believe EDI tells you there is a Cerberus policy of Cells not communicating with each other, thus any communication between cells would by necessity have to go through TIM. 

Is it specifically stated they weren't part of the Pragia cell?

Jack's not exactly the most reliable narrator in this instance. She convientely forgot about the other children starting the riot for one thing. <_<

Hm....interesting. TIM's a far more screwd bastard if so. But if that's the case why the astronomical fear of TIM "finding out" if he already knew everything? And if TIM was fully aware of everything going on why worry about him stopping funding when the project was doing what it was intended. (Making a super biotic).

He probably didn't know it, but he still funded it despite his lack of information. That's the biggest reason he's at fault. 

As for how I know they weren't a part of it, I don't. But I conjecture that they weren't because of how I know cells operate. They're usually self contained, not spread across the galaxy. Each location would be a cell, at least from my understanding.

Besides, those are two different functions, it seems logical to separate them to maintain secrecy. But is of course, just an assumption as we don't have hard intel on it one way or the other.