244 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

I did not consider ME2 fun to play on a combat level, per se.

If you ask me what the most fun parts of ME2 were, I'll tell you Kasumi's loyalty mission, Samara's loyalty mission.

ME2's combat I found repetitive and tedious at times. I found Harbinger annoying. Generally I found the shooting mindless even though it was "better" because more and more I found myself unable to tell you who I was shooting, or why, and more and more I found myself forced into constant cover.

LotSB gave me combat I thoroughly enjoyed. Thoroughly. So I'm led to believe it has nothing to do with ME2's combat itself, but everything to do with story setup and a sense of purpose, which LotSB had in spades.

[Pocketgb]

wulf3n wrote...
Im not sure if you're referring "more compelling" to games or movies/books? games have the potential to be the greatest form of entertainment because of its interactivity. Take horror for example, yeah its scary to watch/read about monsters ghosts and aliens, but how much scarier is it when you're in charge of trying to keep yourself alive.

It varies, definitely - although "potential" is indeed a very clutch word here, given how games are still advancing. The Witcher, for example, does have some really nice moments, but for me personally it's delivery is rough due to how stoic the faces animate.

And I agree about horror games: Silent Hill 2 is one of my top five favorite games due to the atmosphere it provokes, but I don't think it's in the same league (as Nightwriter has mentioned).

[Chuvvy]

If ME2 didn't have a good story and good characters it would be remembered as a sub par TPS and a sub par RPG. Story is important.

[Siegdrifa]

wizardryforever wrote...

Link: social.bioware.com/877716/polls/12092/

Basically, I was trying to determine how many people rate the importance of gameplay vs. story in ME2 (or any game really).  I'd love to hear reasoning behind people's choices too.

In my case, i think both can works.

Some game are saved by the game play, some are saved by the story.
The best is of cause a great gameplay with a great story.

Some yaers ago, i played on dream cast at 2 RPG at the same time.
Grandia 2 and skys of arcadia.

Grandia had great graphique, good dynamic game play, but too classic story telling, no surprise, no big twist... on Skys of arcadia, there was great story telling and good main plot, but combat system was over dated and sooooo boring, and graphique was not equal, citys and villages where good looking, but other level were just ****.

In the end, i played Grandia 2 more but i will never remember it like a "great" RPG because of the lacking plot, and i will remember skys of Arcadia like awsome RPG that deserved better graphique and combat system.


While i like ME2 for what he is, i'm frustrated that Bioware failled to put in place the main plot the game needed.
Like i stated before, 15 short scenario doesn't make one great epic story.
I like the immersion of ME2, i was convinced when entered Omega, but the main plot that should make the reason you do it an epic story is just not here... The illusive man make all the work, you, you are just a gun for hire to point and shoot.


So, when you make a game that is not coherent (try to put the same quality over every part), you are sure to get angry people. There is not many people that hate every thing about ME2, and that's why many people complain strongly at something (ME2 have some strong quality, univers credibility and immersion, solide game design and game mechanics, marvelous background story, great story telling).
When you go to restaurant and all the menu is delicous but the dessert is crap .... "OMG!? why did you miss that part ? it would have been so perfect ! because of this now i feel it's just average.... why you failled at that? all the hard work was done already !" ... something like this i think.


So, i love ME2 because it's a great game, really fun, really good replaybility ni my case, and i feel at easy spending extra money on great DLC, the devs deserve it (seriously, keep doing good work, Shadow Broker is a master piece quality and the best time in the whole game).
But ME2 will never EVER be in games i mention about main plot and story

Of cause it's just my opinion.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:03 .

[wulf3n]

Pocketgb wrote...
And I agree about horror games: Silent Hill 2 is one of my top five favorite games due to the atmosphere it provokes, but I don't think it's in the same league (as Nightwriter has mentioned).

Same league as?
Movies? -  i believe it surpasses movies without even really trying. It's hard to feel scared when i'm detached from the scary events happening. 

[Chuvvy]

wulf3n wrote...
Movies? -  i believe it surpasses movies without even really trying. It's hard to feel scared when i'm detached from the scary events happening. 

Bull****. There was fear pee present the first time you watched the Dumbo dream seaquence, and you know it.

[Pocketgb]

wulf3n wrote...
Same league as? 

A non-horror game. Just like a horror flick isn't the same as a comedy.

Slidell505 wrote...
Bull****. There was fear pee present the first time you watched the Dumbo dream seaquence, and you know it.

All those who had nightmares after watching Willy Wonka say "I".

I!!!

Modifié par Pocketgb, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[wulf3n]

Pocketgb wrote...
A non-horror game. Just like a horror flick isn't the same as a comedy.

I just can't see a situation in which being detached from the story makes the experience better!

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...

wulf3n wrote...


It really depends on the person, i've played some frustratingly buggy games with boring and repetitive gameplay just because the story was so good, and the characters so well written *cough* vampire the masquerade:bloodline *cough*

You'd be better off reading a novel.

A novel wouldn't have been as engaging. I wasn't just following some random characters exploits I was uncovering the mystery, I was interacting with the characters. While it would still have been a great novel, it wouldn't have been half as good.

[Nightwriter]

Would people stop saying "if you want story read a book".

Such a statement is incorrect in the context of our discussion.

[Pocketgb]

wulf3n wrote...
I just can't see a situation in which being detached from the story makes the experience better!

We're totally on seperate pages here. What I'm saying is I'd be much more compelled if a monologue was delivered by a human being than pixels.

I've never been as emotionally touched in a video game as I have in my favorite movies in books. Whether or not that's an issue with the writing or the delivery is hard to discern.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Would people stop saying "if you want story read a book".

Such a statement is incorrect in the context of our discussion.

No, it's quite apt. What the person above you described was an aspect of the gameplay.

We are talking about how each of us defines the best interactive game experience. A book is not an interactive game experience.

It also makes it sound like you're saying, "Gamez r for dumb people, they're not surposed to engage ur mind, if u want smart person brain foodz read book."

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Would people stop saying "if you want story read a book".

Such a statement is incorrect in the context of our discussion.

No, it's quite apt. What the person above you described was an aspect of the gameplay.

We are talking about how each of us defines the best interactive game experience. A book is not an interactive game experience.

It also makes it sound like you're saying, "Gamez r for dumb people, they're not surposed to engage ur mind, if u want smart person brain foodz read book."

Way to pull things out of context.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[wulf3n]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Would people stop saying "if you want story read a book".

Such a statement is incorrect in the context of our discussion.

What the person above you described was an aspect of the gameplay.

Exactly! The interactive element made the story so much more enjoyable, than just the story by itself, and vice versa.

The story by itself was good. The game by itself was terrible. But put the two together and you get something much more powerful and rewarding, than sum of the elements.

It all boils down to why spectate, when i can participate?

Shandepared wrote...
Indeed, but for an interactive game experience to be fun it must be fun to play. That's game play. The process of uncovering the mystery must have been fun. If it weren't, then no matter ho well written, he wouldn't bother uncovering it.

Quite the contrary the "process" was tedious, repetitive, boring and frustrating, however the "reward" of character development, plot development, and some very witty dialogue kept spurring me on.

Now i know what your going to say, "but that also happens in a book without the frustration" and while thats true it wouldn't have been as immersive, seeing it through someone else's eyes. I would have felt no attachment to the characters, as i wasn't the one interacting with them. It's hard to explain, it's just something you have to feel.

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:08 .

[Nightwriter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Way to pull things out of context.

What, I'm not allowed to feel insulted when someone tells me to read a book if I say I want a story experience from a game? So if I'm a gamer, I must be only interested in mindlessly running people over with cars?

Wrong, I am only interested in mindlessly running people over with cars some of the time. As soon as I pick up a BioWare game I become the Nightwriter who isn't delightedly interested in shooting pedestrians in the face with rocket launchers.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared can be insulting in other debates, but I'm pretty sure his saying go read a book was not meant as an insult to gamers. If you wanted to read insult into it, consider it an insult to those who fail to recognize the importance of gameplay when designing a game.

The thing is, if you want to tell the story in a game format, that means you want to use the advantages of that particular medium over a book or movie or any other storytelling device. You are telling the story through gameplay. Poorly designed gameplay means a poorly told story.

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[wulf3n]

Pacifien wrote...
The thing is, if you want to tell the story in a game format, that means you want to use the advantages of that particular medium over a book or movie or any other storytelling device. You are telling the story through gameplay. Poorly designed gameplay means a poorly told story.

Does that mean the same story without the gameplay would be an equal experience? 

[Nightwriter]

Slidell505 wrote...

If ME2 didn't have a good story and good characters it would be remembered as a sub par TPS and a sub par RPG. Story is important.

In BioWare games it is. To me, BioWare games practically are books. 

A BioWare game which is strong on gameplay and weak on story gets an entirely different reaction.

You're talking to someone who played GTA IV and said, "Hmm, gameplay's a lot less fun than in San Andreas, and now I have this weird serious story. I want my fun gameplay back and to get rid of this weird serious story."

[Pacifien]

wulf3n wrote...
Does that mean the same story without the gameplay would be an equal experience? 

No. How you tell a story alters the experience.

Why would someone like Neil Gaiman decide to tell one story through graphic novels, one through written novels, and another as a movie? Why couldn't he just write them all as written novels? Because Sandman as a written novel would suck as American Gods as a movie would suck.

Of course, that example probably only makes sense to Neil Gaiman fans who know what I'm referencing.

Okay, here's another completely stream-of-conscious example: the comic books. Mac Walters is a writer for the game. He should write a decent comic book about Mass Effect, yeah? But he doesn't. The framework is off. The writing is stilted. He's not a comic book writer and the artists are not skilled enough to portray the Mass Effect environment. You want to tell Mass Effect through comic books, you need someone with a better understanding of how to lay out a comic book story.

Actually, I'm not going to delete any of what I just wrote, but I don't think it describes what I'm trying to say very well at all. Suffice to say, the same story told across different mediums is going to end up being different stories in the end. Or something... like that.