244 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
I think a lot of people are making a mistake and assuming that only combat is gameplay.

Sometimes I do wonder if when I talk about gameplay, game design, game layout, and so forth, if people think I'm just talking about the combat.

[Nightwriter]

Combat is a big part of gameplay. When people criticize ME1's gameplay, it seems they are mostly referring to combat.

[MassEffect762]

Story slightly more important that gameplay.



My. 0.02

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
Combat is a big part of gameplay. When people criticize ME1's gameplay, it seems they are mostly referring to combat.

Then this debate has a serious issue of semantics. Gameplay is a lot more than combat. It's level design, mission progression, puzzle solving, even the layout of the game controls. Gameplay is everything about how the game is played.

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien, I agree with you, but I guess I feel like in the context of our ME2 discussion what you say isn't the case. Puzzle solving and mission progression are part of my story criticisms of ME2. And ME2 supporters seem to mostly praise combat.

The lines between gameplay and story are blurred in this debate.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
The lines between gameplay and story are blurred in this debate.

They're supposed to be. BioWare doesn't want to make games with weak stories and no game development company wants to make games with lackluster gameplay.

[Lunatic LK47]

wulf3n wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Except the Mako doesn't do U-Turns well. Ever read my post?

The mako does u-turns just fine, it would appear you can't

What's next, blaming defective car parts on user error? Might as well drop it since you're another [Edit: Removed insult. Loves and kisses, Pacifien] regarding the Mako.

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Pacifien]

Keep it civil, folks.

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
The lines between gameplay and story are blurred in this debate.

They're supposed to be. BioWare doesn't want to make games with weak stories and no game development company wants to make games with lackluster gameplay.

If they didn't want to make games with weak stories, what happened with ME2?

Did they get so caught up in telling the stories of these characters they forgot the rest? Sometimes that can happen to a writer if they really enjoy writing a character.

[Jesse Houston]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Combat is a big part of gameplay. When people criticize ME1's gameplay, it seems they are mostly referring to combat.

Then this debate has a serious issue of semantics. Gameplay is a lot more than combat. It's level design, mission progression, puzzle solving, even the layout of the game controls. Gameplay is everything about how the game is played.

It's also totally subjective

[wulf3n]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Except the Mako doesn't do U-Turns well. Ever read my post?

The mako does u-turns just fine, it would appear you can't

What's next, blaming defective car parts on user error? Might as well drop it since you're another [Edit: Removed insult. Loves and kisses, Pacifien] regarding the Mako.

I've seen and performed many U-turns in the mako with little difficulty. Unless your claiming your version of ME1 is defective in some way, I only see 1 cause remaining.
And again that's not what i'm arguing. You can't compare a jeep to a tank. thats like comparing a Jet with a Helicopter! 

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Lunatic LK47]

[Edit: If I deleted the comment out of one post of yours, odds are I'm not going to allow it in a second post of yours. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:24 .

[Lunatic LK47]

wulf3n wrote...
And again that's not what i'm arguing. You can't compare a jeep to a tank. thats like comparing a Jet with a Helicopter!

Uh, the control scheme sucked regardless. Why did BioWare axe the Mako again? Oh right, it controlled like **** regardless of the planets.

[wulf3n]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Uh, the control scheme sucked regardless. Why did BioWare axe the Mako again? Oh right, it controlled like **** regardless of the planets.

I don't see how i can explain this any clearer. I'm not debating the quality of the mako's control system. I saying if you're going to compare it to another system, it has to be the same class of vehicle. otherwise its not an accurate comparison! 

\\\\

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Pacifien]

Lunatic LK47 and wulf3n, if you would like to continue debating aspects of the Mako, might I suggest a thread specifically designed for the discussion of the vehicle. Such as the Vehicles thread.

[Nightwriter]

All right, Pacifien. An example: in ME2, TIM gives you mandatory plot missions you must pursue immediately, without choice.

Is this a gameplay feature or a story feature?

Note that while you may call it a gameplay mechanic, it drastically affects my story experience.

[Pacifien]

I think a person could make a case for it being one, the other, or both. I'd probably say the decision to place it at that point in time of the game and make it mandatory was a call on story over gameplay.

[Bryy_Miller]

Pacifien wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
I think a lot of people are making a mistake and assuming that only combat is gameplay.

Sometimes I do wonder if when I talk about gameplay, game design, game layout, and so forth, if people think I'm just talking about the combat.

You'd be surprised how many people think gameplay is simply action. 

[RiouHotaru]

Nightwriter wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
The lines between gameplay and story are blurred in this debate.

They're supposed to be. BioWare doesn't want to make games with weak stories and no game development company wants to make games with lackluster gameplay.

If they didn't want to make games with weak stories, what happened with ME2?

Did they get so caught up in telling the stories of these characters they forgot the rest? Sometimes that can happen to a writer if they really enjoy writing a character.

Whether the story of ME2 was "weak" or not is also a matter of subjective opinion.  While I understand your stance, Nightwriter, I don't agree with it.

Also, as for things like TIM handing out missions and some of that other related material, it's a little thing that happens in video games called Gameplay Vs. Story Segregation.  This is why Jacob's Loyalty has them using heat-sinks despite a time gap.  It happens all the time.  Sometimes the game manages to work around it (Tela Vasir), sometimes it doesn't.

[Nightwriter]

Understand that by "weak" I don't mean some huge criticism that would be worthy of smudboy.

I mean the game spends less time on the story, it sort of rushes you through the setup of the story more than the first so it can focus on the characters, you get three very short plot missions, you get a throwaway enemy, it sort of glosses over things like the Lazarus Project, etc.

So it's not necessarily that I think the story is bad, I just don't think it got very much screentime.

[Chuvvy]

Nightwriter wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

If ME2 didn't have a good story and good characters it would be remembered as a sub par TPS and a sub par RPG. Story is important.

In BioWare games it is. To me, BioWare games practically are books. 

A BioWare game which is strong on gameplay and weak on story gets an entirely different reaction.

You're talking to someone who played GTA IV and said, "Hmm, gameplay's a lot less fun than in San Andreas, and now I have this weird serious story. I want my fun gameplay back and to get rid of this weird serious story."

ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS FOLLOW THE DAMN TRAIN CJ!

[Il Divo]

wulf3n wrote...

Why do very few people consider story to be a part of the gameplay? Why not consider story to be as much a part of gameplay as guns are in a shooter, and customization in and RPG? 

To answer your question: because ultimately, every medium is unique in its method of delivering a story, video games included. Video games must feature 'gameplay' otherwise they fail to be games and are simply movies with computer graphics. A game must take what makes it unique (its gameplay) and utilize this such that a movie/book/comic could not hope to copy it.

Let's consider an example like Halo. Great story. What's the problem? The story has absolutely no dependence on gameplay. You can take out all the gameplay elements and Halo's story will be no different because a movie could deliver the exact same thing.

Try doing this with something like Half Life 2 or Bioshock where the entire experience is told from that character's view point. This technique allows us to become more engrossed in the experience. If you remove the 'gameplay', you in essence alter the way the story is told. This is the case with any Bioware/Obsidian game where dialogue is a primary factor. This is why when someone claims to play video games simply for the story, I'm bewildered. Their desire is not outrageous, however if we refer back to the Halo example: the excellent story has nothing to do with being a video game, hence it is unessential to a good video game. In order for story to be equally important to a video game, we must first make the two indistinguishable.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:49 .

[wulf3n]

Il Divo wrote...
To answer your question: because ultimately, every medium is unique in its method of delivering a story, video games included. Video games must feature 'gameplay' otherwise they fail to be games and are simply movies with computer graphics. A game must take what makes it unique (its gameplay) and utilize this such that a movie/book/comic could not hope to copy it.

Let's consider an example like Halo. Great story. What's the problem? The story has absolutely no dependence on gameplay. You can take out all the gameplay elements and Halo's story will be no different because a movie could deliver the exact same thing.

Try doing this with something like Half Life 2 or Bioshock where the entire experience is told from that character's view point. This technique allows us to become more engrossed in the experience. If you remove the 'gameplay', you in essence alter the way the story is told. This is the case with any Bioware/Obsidian game where dialogue is a primary factor. This is why when someone claims to play video games simply for the story, I'm bewildered. Their desire is not outrageous, however if we refer back to the Halo example: the excellent story has nothing to do with being a video game, hence it is unessential to a good video game. In order for story to be equally important to a video game, we must first make the two indistinguishable.

I understand your point, but i don't quite agree with it. Using the Halo reference, Sure it was a great game, even with a strong story, but think how much better it could have been with a great story attached to it? Bungie know this, thats why they've tried with the later games, each one taking a new approach on story telling, and bungie were getting quite close to something spectacular...pity they stopped.

What i'm trying to say is story being seperate from gameplay, is only a reality because we accept it as an inevitability. We have to hold developers accountable for poor story telling, if we want the industry to move foward.
Going back to my fps example, if a Blockbuster fps with brilliant AI, a perfect control scheme, well designed levels, came out with only a couple of guns, that were plain and boring, didn't work all the time, sounded wrong, looked wrong, then that developer would get ripped to shreds by critics and gamers alike, yet if theres a bad story, were like oh well, it least it has fun gameplay <_<

[Nightwriter]

Do you know I've realized I don't really think story > gameplay? I just really did not like ME2's action-focused approach and don't want to endorse that design choice by saying that story somehow doesn't matter as much. 

But since ME3 is the final chapter and will be sure to be story focused it doesn't even matter.

[Pacifien]

I suppose then a good topic would be then "what kind of gameplay?" BioWare is going to tell us whatever kind of story they want about this Commander Shepard and the Reapers, but how they tell us is another matter.