42 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

I don't think there's a clear 'right' decision here (at least not without metagaming). Even as a dwarf noble there are compelling reasons to support Bhelen, whether he framed you or not. Loyalty to one's house is a concept that is given great emphasis among dwarven nobility. It's an idea that the dwarf noble will have grown up with.

Siding with Harrowmont might get you revenge againt Bhelen, but it also costs House Aeducan the throne. Realistically, how willing would a dwarven noble be to cripple their entire house for the sake of settling the score?

Another factor to consider is if you're a male Warden with a child. Siding with Bhelen is the only way your son can be an Aeducan. From a dwarf noble's point of view, I don't imagine that having another house adopt your child is a very attractive prospect.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:14 .

[MB957]

Thank you Sarah1281 for the dialouge trees. I was hoping to run across something like that for a dwarven PC. I struggle to play as a dwarf PC, but was playing to see how it went down when noble dwarf returned to orzammar and confronted bhelen. I got a ways with it, but just stalled out! Now, with your help, I can experience the meeting!

also, what is metagaming?  I am not familiar with that term.

Modifié par MB957, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:00 .

[ddv.rsa]

MB957 wrote...

Thank you Sarah1281 for the dialouge trees. I was hoping to run across something like that for a dwarven PC. I struggle to play as a dwarf PC, but was playing to see how it went down when noble dwarf returned to orzammar and confronted bhelen. I got a ways with it, but just stalled out! Now, with your help, I can experience the meeting!

also, what is metagaming?  I am not familiar with that term.

Metagaming is when you make decisions based on information your character has no way of knowing ingame.  For example if you choose Bhelen just because he gets a better epilogue slide, then you're metagaming. Your character has no way of knowing that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I don't think there's a clear 'right' decision here (at least not without metagaming). Even as a dwarf noble there are compelling reasons to support Bhelen, whether he framed you or not. Loyalty to one's house is a concept that is given great emphasis among dwarven nobility. It's an idea that the dwarf noble will have grown up with.

Siding with Harrowmont might get you revenge againt Bhelen, but it also costs House Aeducan the throne. Realistically, how willing would a dwarven noble be to cripple their entire house for the sake of settling the score?

Another factor to consider is if you're a male Warden with a child. Siding with Bhelen is the only way your son can be an Aeducan. From a dwarf noble's point of view, I don't imagine that having another house adopt your child is a very attractive prospect.

MY DN sided with Harrowmont. Because she knew Harrowmont was a weakling that could be counted on to follow his own rigid code of honor. Bhelen was a threat to her ambitions, as he had shown. Her plan was to temporarily put Harrowmont on the throne, until the blight was done, where she knew he could be manipulated into naming her as his successor, thus putting Aeducan back on the throne. His weakness was a boon, making him easy to remove once she was ready.

That is one way to look at a DN siding with Harrowmont for purely pragmatic reasons.

[ddv.rsa]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

MY DN sided with Harrowmont. Because she knew Harrowmont was a weakling that could be counted on to follow his own rigid code of honor. Bhelen was a threat to her ambitions, as he had shown. Her plan was to temporarily put Harrowmont on the throne, until the blight was done, where she knew he could be manipulated into naming her as his successor, thus putting Aeducan back on the throne. His weakness was a boon, making him easy to remove once she was ready.

That is one way to look at a DN siding with Harrowmont for purely pragmatic reasons.

That's a good plan, especially considering how old Harrowmont is. That said it has the capacity to go very wrong. Your Warden could die in the Blight, and Harrowmont would also be inclined to name one of his own house as successor. Especially if he has children, we don't know. He also thwarts your efforts to help Orzammar; if you arrange military assistance from Ferelden he squanders an incredible opportunity and turns the human armies away. Fool. 

Anyway, my DN just wasn't that ambitious. He stayed out politics and was content to let Trian become king. After Bhelen's stunt he wanted revenge, but in the end loyalty to House Aeducan was the deciding factor.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:29 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ddv.rsa wrote...


That's a good plan, especially considering how old Harrowmont is. That said it has the capacity to go very wrong. Your Warden could die in the Blight, and Harrowmont would also be inclined to name one of his own house as successor. Especially if he has children, we don't know. He also thwarts your efforts to help Orzammar; if you arrange military assistance from Ferelden he squanders an incredible opportunity and turns the human armies away. Fool. 

Anyway, my DN just wasn't that ambitious. He stayed out politics and was content to let Trian become king. After Bhelen's stunt he wanted revenge, but in the end loyalty to House Aeducan was the deciding factor.

True, but fortune favors the bold risk-takers, and my DN could be considered the paragon of ruthless ambition.

Harrowmont is an idiot, and spineless to boot. Sure, he might be a nicer guy to deal with, but it's only a temporary thing. Basically, most playthroughs, I favor Bhelen, my DN being the exception, because she had her own visionary plans for Orzammar. I plan on making Harrowmont king in two other playthroughs for variety sake, but my canons and favorites always have Bhelen.

The anvil, on the other hand, gets destroyed in almost all my playthroughs. The morality of it does not bother me so bad, as there would be plenty of volunteers to prevent people being forced to do it. It's leaving something that powerful in the hands of a complete raving psychotic **** like Branka that makes me want to destroy it, because it's like leaving the secrets of incurable anthrax or super nukes in the hands of Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. If there was an option to kill Branka, but leave the anvil intact and send the dwarves to study it, I'd much rather take that route.

[MB957]

Thank you ddv.rsa for the info about metagaming. DAO was the first modern rpg game I've played. I played D&D as a kid, before there were even computers and then later on a Tandy 1000...lol! I've always sided with Harrowmont because it seemed fun to do the provings. And then I found I could get some gold from byzil for returning his letters, so that was good...lol! So I guess I will go ahead and metagame and side with bhelen for a change next round thru!

[HAL4294]

sarah, good you upload the dialogue (and possibly the approval changes) for the conversation with alistair after the landsmeet after marrying him to anora when youre in a romance with him? :/

[Sarah1281]

HAL4294 wrote...

sarah, good you upload the dialogue (and possibly the approval changes) for the conversation with alistair after the landsmeet after marrying him to anora when youre in a romance with him? :/

Since you didn't specify, I'm going to assume you mean if you marry him to Anora but did not spare Loghain.

Alistair: We... need to talk. (And not the good kind, either)
[if hardened: I'm not going to question why you made me king. I even think I'm starting to come around on the idea, anyhow... it could be an interesting future for me. (Not happy, but not entirely displeased either)
if unhardened: I don't really question why you did what you did. I didn't want to become king, and you knew that, but it had to be. (Unhappy but dealing with it)
Alistair: But... being king, being engaged to Anora... that raises some questions about us. About you and me. (Uneasy about this topic, not sure what the reaction will be.

[PC: It doesn't need to impact on us at all.
If hardened: Alistair: You don't think so? Maybe you're right, but I've thought of almost nothing else since the Landsmeet. (Grim)
If unhardened: I'm... not so sure of that. I've thought of almost nothing else since the Landsmeet, believe me. (Grim)]
[If Alistair love PC: I thought you were in love with me.
Alistair: I am. But this is all I can think about since the Landsmeet. (Grim, doesn't like what he's going to have to do)]
[When not love PC: I wasn't aware there was a "you and me."
Alistair: Let's not kid each other. You and I can both see where this is heading. I've been able to think about almost nothing else since the Landsmeet. (Laying it all out, unhappy)]
[What sorts of questions?]
Alistair: First, there's the fact that both you and I are Grey Wardens. It's not just a question of obligation, but of blood. You know that Grey Wardens don't usually live to become old, right? (Reluctant explanation -- he'd rather not have to do any of this, but he feels he must) 

[PC: What do you mean?
Alistair: The taint in our blood... the taint we took in at the Joining... it will kill us in the long run. Grey Wardens maybe live to their forties at most, no longer. (Grim)] 
[PC: We don't have to grow old together, do we?
Alistair: Maybe not. But that's not in the cards anyhow. (Unhappy)]
[PC: Yes, I'm aware of that/How does that affect anything?]
Alistair: As king, I'll be required to have a child. Even more so because my death is assured. That's assuming that someone with the taint can or even should have a child. (Reluctant explanation -- he'd rather not have to do any of this, but he feels he must) 

[PC: I assume Anora will be having your child.
Alistair: I... yes, I suppose she would. If we can. Even one parent having tainted blood is not recommended, but I suppose I'll have no choice. (He finds the idea distasteful but he has no choice)]
[PC: Are you suggesting I have this child?
Alistair: No, I'm not. I mean... both of us have tainted blood. Both of us will die young. (What he means is that it's impossible even if they wanted it)]
[PC: Don't Grey Wardens have children?
Alistair: Not with each other. Even one parent having tainted blood means having children is not recommended. All the Grey Wardens I knew with children had them before they joined the Order. Reluctant explanation -- he'd rather not have to do any of this, but he feels he must)]
[PC: I still don't see how that affects us.]
Alistair: Anora is going to be my wife. She will have my child, if I can give her one. I may not love her, but... I will have a duty as the king. (Really unhappy about this -- he doesn't even like Anora but he's an honorable man) 
[If in love: I love you. More than I ever thought possible, but... I have to face what this means. I can't run away from it any more. (Desperately unhappy -- his heart is breaking)
If not: You mean a great deal to me. I was hoping that it would lead to something more, but... I have to face what this means. (Grim)]

[PC: Who says we ever had a future? (Alistair approval -5)
Alistair: Maybe we didn't. Really, whatever we have... it's just started. Maybe it just came about because we were thrown together, maybe we wouldn't last. Maybe this is just all in my head, and you don't feel the same at all. Am I being too presumptuous? (Heartbroken) 
[[When not love PC: Yes, you are. I like you, but... that's it.
Alistair: Then... then I suppose this is just as well. I thought... well, it doesn't matter what I thought. Thank you for making this... easier. (Unhappy, trying to see the silver lining)]]
[[When in love PC: Yes, you are. It needn't go any further than it has.
Alistair: Are you just trying to make it easier for me? I guess... I guess it doesn't matter, really, does it? (Unhappy) You're right. It doesn't need to go any further than this. No matter how much I might have wished otherwise. (Heartbroken)]]
[[PC: And why can't things stay as they are?
Alistair: Mistress convo.]]
[[PC: No, I feel the same way.
Alistair: I could see...]]
[[No, I suppose not. I love you, too.
Alistair: I could see...]]

[PC: Nobody can force the king to do anything he doesn't want to.
If unhardened: Meaning what? Meaning that I could be married and a father and yet still see... whomever I wanted on the side? No, no. No, I couldn't do that. That would be very unfair. (He's just too much the good guy to do something so dishonorable) 
If hardened: You mean... marry who I want? Carry on with whomever I want? You don't think that would be very unfair? To my wife as well as you? (He's an honorable man -- this notion sounds really unpleasant to him. Why would he do this?)
[[PC: I... suppose you're right.
If still in love Alistair: I love you. I will probably always love you. But... my duty as the king has to take precedence. (He wishes he could do otherwise, but he is an honorable man) I know how incredibly stupid that must sound. But I have to do this now or I never will. (Grim, unhappy)
If not: If I don't do this now, I will never be able to. My duty as the king must... it must take precedence. (He wishes he could do otherwise, but he is an honorable man)]]
[[PC: Being king is not a punishment, Alistair.
If medium persuade Alistair: You're right. Of course you're right. (Still, he feels like it is a punishment even so) Damn them all...
If fail Alistair: If only it were that simple. I love you...]]
[[When love PC: But I love you. Isn't that important to you?/PC: Perhaps you should do what pleases you, for once.
Low approval increase Alistair: You know what? You're right. (Screw it, I'm doing it!) Damn them all, anyhow. If they want to make me king, then... then I'll be king. And I'll do exactly what I want to do. (Screw it, I'll do what I want!) I feel like such an idiot for bringing this up, now. Can you ever forgive me? (Slapping himself in the forehead)
[[[PC: Of course I can.
Alistair: Good. Then let's forget about it. (Pleased)]]]
[[[PC: Maybe. You'll have to earn it, I think.
Alistair: Oh, ho? That sounds rather saucy. We'll have to discuss my punishment later on, I see. (Playful)]]]
[[[PC: I don't know.
Alistair: Ah. It's going to be like that, is it? All right, then, just let me put my glum face on. I'll take my punishment like a man.(Amused)]]] ]] ]

[PC: Are you saying we can't be together?
Alistair: Yes, I... I guess I am. (Crestfallen)]
[PC: You must be joking. Tell me you're joking.
Alistair: No, I'm sorry. I'm not joking. I wish I were. (Heartbroken)]
[PC: I think I understand]
If love Alistair: I could see it becoming very hard to tear myself away from you. Impossible, even. If this is what must be, then... then I have to do it now. I'm sorry. (Heartbroken)
If not: I know this is selfish of me, but if we continue as we have been... I'm just not sure I will be able to do this later. I have to do it now. I'm sorry. (Grim)

PC: Is this revenge for my making you king?
Alistair: No, of course not. I said I understand why you decided what you did, and I do. But at the same time I cannot avoid what that entails. (Grim)
PC: Why do this now? Why not wait to see what happens?
Alistair: If I don't end it now, I fear I never will be able to. I'm sorry, but... I have no choice. (Grim)
PC: So... what happens now? Are you leaving?
Alistair: No. We still have our duty as Grey Wardens to fulfill. That hasn't changed. (Grim)

[If love PC: I love you, Alistair. I'm sorry it came to this./If not: I'm sorry it came to this, Alistair.
Low approval increase Alistair: I'm sorry, too. (Grim) ]
[PC: You'll be a good king.
Alistair: A good king. A good Grey Warden. A good husband. A good father. (States all these things with a bit of bitterness -- as if they are things he HAS to be) But I'd gladly trade all of those things for what I really want. (Heartbroken -- this can never be)]
[PC: So this is it. It's over.
Alistair: I think it is best. For both our sakes. (Taking a deep breath)
[[PC: I won't accept this, Alistair. (Alistair approval -5)
If hardened: What is the alternative? Shall I ignore my duty, instead? Make my queen a laughing stock as I carry on with whomever I please? ("You think I like it?" -- a bit frustrated) Go to mistress convo.
If not: I'm sorry you feel that way.]]
[[PC: Then you are an ass. But do what you want.
Alistair: I'm sorry you feel that way. (Bitter) My duty isn't going to stop being important to me. I can't change who I am. I... I wish I could. I really do. (Grim, sad)]]
[[PC: Can we not remain friends? 
Alistair: I hope so. I really do. After this is over, we should talk of it again. (Awkard)]] ]

If not mistress Alitair: ... need to go back to the camp. Be by myself for a while.(Heartbroken)

[HAL4294]

what about before the landsmeet? when you're talking him into marrying anora?

Also, where are you getting these? the toolset?

Modifié par HAL4294, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[Sarah1281]

HAL4294 wrote...

what about before the landsmeet? when you're talking him into marrying anora?

Also, where are you getting these? the toolset?

Yes, I am getting it from the toolset.

Alistair: So I just saw Anora not long ago. Strange story. (Wry -- he's just come away from an awkward conversation)
She gave me the strangest look, like she was sizing up whether the cow was ready for slaughter. I asked her why. (Starting a story that he knows the player had something to do with) You know what she said? "It would be like marrying his twin." I misheard that, right? Tell me I misheard. (In quotes him mimicking Anora (spoken with distaste) -- he is baffled and a little alarmed)
[PC: You misheard. It'll never happen.
Alistair: Good, because that idea? Bad. All kinds of bad. (Still shocked, doesn't like the idea at all) Maybe she said, "You've got a hairy chin?" I do need a shave. Yes, I'll go with that. (Knows it's not true but he's trying to convince himself -- it's better than the alternative)]
[PC: You heard right.
Alistair: Marry her? As in marriage? As in be her husband? You've spoken to her about this? You did, didn't you? (Shocked -- and his shock grows as he realizes the implications)]
[PC: You don't look <emp>that</emp> much like Cailan.]
Alistair: Marry her? As in marriage? As in be her husband? You've spoken to her about this? You did, didn't you? (Shocked -- and his shock grows as he realizes the implications) You... why would you do that? What about us? (Flabbergasted, he can't believe it -- "what about us?" meaning "what about the fact that we love each other")

[PC: There is no "us."
If love: Oh. My mistake. (Bitter -- "My mistake" means "It was a mistake to fall in love with you")
If not: Ah. I didn't mean... all right. I understand. (Crestfallen)]
[PC: This is a political arrangement, nothing more.
If hardened: All right. I'll accept that... for now. (Neutral, but he really doesn't approve)
If in love: I understand. And I still don't care. I don't want anyone else... even just for show. (Earnest -- he loves the player and he doesn't care what the consequences are) 
If neither: I... suppose so. It just seems strange that you should be the one to bring this up. (A bit hurt)]
[PC: It doesn't have to change anything.
Alistair: I...suppose so...]
[PC: I know. But this is important.
If changed: All right...
If love: So are you. You're more important to me than anything. I don't want anyone else, even for pretend. (Earnest declaration of love)
If adore: So are you. More important than the throne, by far. (Earnest)]

If he expresses reluctance, you get this tree:

[PC: Then I'll tell her no deal.
Alistair: Good. I like that idea much better. Much better. (Relieved) Marrying Cailan's widow? How could she even...? No, never mind. I'm going to not think about it now. (Shaking his head in disbelief)]
[PC: Stop being a child. This is your duty.
Alistair: Oh, that's nice. (Sarcasm)]
[PC: This is about more than us, Alistair.
Alistair: I can't turn left without someone telling me something like that today. <desc>Sigh</desc> (Weary, exasperated -- everyone's been telling him about his duty and he's tiring of it)]
[PC: Please just hear me out.]
Alistair: Why do you think I should do this, then? Tell me. (Challenging)]

Then there's the explaining why tree. I love when Alistair's been hardened and you fail the persuade check about 'She can rule while you lead' because then you get 'Or I can rule while I lead. Also perfect.' Great line even if I  the marriage.
If none: I...suppose so...

[HAL4294]

so no approval change?

[HAL4294]

so no approval change?
sorry, double post

Modifié par HAL4294, 02 novembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Sarah1281]

"There's no us" gets 'extreme disapproval' while " Stop being a child. This is your duty." gets 'moderate disapproval.'

[HAL4294]

alright, cool. i had heard that marrying them while in a romance instantly causes disapproval, but i guess thats not so

[Sarah1281]

If you choose 'You will because I say so' as your reason then that not only breaks off the romance but it puts your approval back at zero.

[ejoslin]

HAL4294 wrote...

alright, cool. i had heard that marrying them while in a romance instantly causes disapproval, but i guess thats not so

You already knew this.  I quoted you, yesterday, a conversation that gave no disapproval.

[HAL4294]

that only happens with alistair, odd

covering my bases, nothing personal

Modifié par HAL4294, 02 novembre 2010 - 09:53 .