442 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Now why on earth would you suggest such devilry?

I can see the positive parts of it. Every companion looks unique, you won't meet accidently create a PC that looks exactly like your companion.

I can't use the Alistair hair because of it and my first female Warden looked exactly like Leliana.

Thats fixed by simply giving companions unique hair styles ala Morrigan and Oghren.

Completely scrapping the ability to customize companion armour is entirely unneccessary.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Now why on earth would you suggest such devilry?

I can see the positive parts of it. Every companion looks unique, you won't meet accidently create a PC that looks exactly like your companion.

I can't use the Alistair hair because of it and my first female Warden looked exactly like Leliana.

Do pretell what hair has to do with clothing?

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Do pretell what hair has to do with clothing?

Second bit was mostly unrelated, though poorly noted. Custom clothing makes a character look unique.

Varric in his awesome jacket for example, he wouldn't be looking unique if he was equipped with Leather or Dalish armor. Same thing with Morrigan, her robe essentially defines the character and without it she doesn't really feel like Morrigan.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Do pretell what hair has to do with clothing?

Second bit was mostly unrelated, though poorly noted. Custom clothing makes a character look unique.

Varric in his awesome jacket for example, he wouldn't be looking unique if he was equipped with Leather or Dalish armor. Same thing with Morrigan, her robe essentially defines the character and without it she doesn't really feel like Morrigan.

Fair enough but it adds very little beyond that and removes a very large portion of customization. I kinda think the cons outweight the pros. Morrigan's personality defines Morrigan, the notion that people need specific clothing to "relate or define"  a companion, I dunno I just don't get it.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Do pretell what hair has to do with clothing?

Second bit was mostly unrelated, though poorly noted. Custom clothing makes a character look unique.

Varric in his awesome jacket for example, he wouldn't be looking unique if he was equipped with Leather or Dalish armor. Same thing with Morrigan, her robe essentially defines the character and without it she doesn't really feel like Morrigan.

Really? 

So what her snark, attitude and posture, and voice mean nothing if she's not wearing that robe? 

[upsettingshorts]

I'm just gonna put this here, no-one responded to it the first time and I thought it was a fair distinction between the notion of characters having an "input of their own" on what they wore, while still retaining inventory management and customization:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd be happy with companions having say, their own casual clothes. I mean, my character might be their boss but who am I to tell them what they're wearing when they're "off duty" as it were?

But I do enjoy micromanaging inventories and equipment during gameplay, and I think that would be a tough thing to sacrifice for some vague concept of identity.

That being said - and though I'm about the furthest thing from an expert on the subject - isn't the entire concept of fashion based upon the idea that clothes are a form of expression? I mean, my overall point isn't to doubt that what someone wears can give insight into their character, I think it absolutely can, I just don't think that doing away with inventories in order to accomplish some form of that is a worthy tradeoff.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 octobre 2010 - 02:21 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm just gonna put this here, no-one responded to it the first time and I thought it was a fair distinction between the notion of characters having an "input of their own" on what they wore, while still retaining inventory management and customization:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd be happy with companions having say, their own casual clothes. I mean, my character might be their boss but who am I to tell them what they're wearing when they're "off duty" as it were?

But I do enjoy micromanaging inventories and equipment during gameplay, and I think that would be a tough thing to sacrifice for some vague concept of identity.

That being said - and though I'm about the furthest thing from an expert on the subject - isn't the entire concept of fashion based upon the idea that clothes are a form of expression? I mean, my overall point isn't to doubt that what someone wears can give insight into their character, I think it absolutely can, I just don't think that doing away with inventories in order to accomplish some form of that is a worthy tradeoff.

Thats been touched on before AngryPants, and I agree, make it so everyone can get what they want, that way everyone is happy, or at least content. More options are always better.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Varric in his awesome jacket for example, he wouldn't be looking unique if he was equipped with Leather or Dalish armor. Same thing with Morrigan, her robe essentially defines the character and without it she doesn't really feel like Morrigan.

Morrigan is a notable exception, though. Do none of other companions have any personality nor uniqueness in your eyes, considering they don't come with unique outfit of their own? Are they less unique than Morrigan, given the same difference?

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 octobre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Collider wrote...

The most important thing to me in a story driven RPG (IE: Dragon Age 2) is the story.

A "story driven RPG" is still a subset of RPG.

And DAO was even a party-based RPG.  So in DAO if I make Sten an archer rather than a melee fighter, it would be idiotic if he still wore the same armour.

[Brockololly]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Morrigan's personality defines Morrigan, the notion that people need specific clothing to "relate or define"  a companion, I dunno I just don't get it.

Right- I'd say that the character's faces are important too, as I said in one of the other threads floating around. But yeah, any unique clothing is just that- cllothing. It shouldn't be stitched into the character, no matter how cool it may look.

And Morrigan in massive armor is awesome.

Modifié par Brockololly, 30 octobre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Sir JK]

I'm in two minds about the issue. I've never really been too fond of the heavy focus on inventory management in RPGs, at best they weren't very noticeable at worst they feel like they steal from the actual roleplaying (which to me is interaction with the story and the npc, in case anyone wonders). I do however see the merit of having it for the party-based tactical combat parts of the game, and agree that resource management is a very important aspect of this for the sake of challanges.

I also see the customisation value in having different sets of weapons and armour.



I liked ME2's move away from the inventory system, I really do. I felt it moved away from something that did not fit at all with the game or the setting. If I am a well-funded special soldier with my own speaceship complete with an armoury and a internal weapons manufactory that's being supplied by what might very well be the richest man in the universe then there's not really going to be much things in the universe that I shouldn't already have access to, nor does a limit to the amount of stuff I can collect make any sense.

But at the same time I think that the companion outfit system in the sequel was a bit lackluster. Having the same ability to outfit them as Shepard would have been nice.



However: I'm not sure such a system would be optimal in DA2. For one there's an actual limit to the amount of stuff one can carry and there's no international/-galactical organisation funding/supplying you with the best stuff available. So in lack of better options I think the more classical "rpg" inventory system would be preferable. As for companion outfits themselves, again I'm a bit torn. I see the value in both being able to pick and choose their outfits and having unique outfits for just them. Morrigan's robes for instance, fits her great. Unlike all the other robe that just plain looked ridiculous.

An idea would perhaps be to have several available armour sets (wether that is actual sets restricted to that character or just different models) for each character? Each looking a bit distinct from the others. So that there is a system that allows a degree of customisation and inventory management but still allowing the characters to retain their unique look and style?

[The Masked Rog]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

This seems like it'll devolve into "what is an rpg", it's already sort of has.

It doesn't need to, its pretty hard to debate that customization options have generally been a fairly standard thing in RPG's over the years. Removing it for the sake of removing it doesn't really make the game any better.

How about removing it for the sake of giving companions a personality and stopping players from dressing them in ridicolous clothing (for the NPC)? IMmersion beats customization in an RPG any time.

[Kail Ashton]

Oh no, what if i can't put what's his face in bland armor number 5 which is just a recolored version of #1-4!! like in DA:O!! nuuuuuuuuuuuu!!! my lifes over!!!



Frankly i'd rather have 1 stylized outfit then a buncha crappy, uninspired, often times goofy looking multiple outfits like DA:O



lol i love how the same "people" who went wah wah wah over the goofy gear in DA:O are now freaking out that they can't play dress like a retard in DA2(though that's every day for carver hawke i suppose)

[Morroian]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Oh no, what if i can't put what's his face in bland armor number 5 which is just a recolored version of #1-4!! like in DA:O!! nuuuuuuuuuuuu!!! my lifes over!!!

Its not just about looks, I'd rather a 2H warrior be in heavy armour rather than massive just for example, whereas S&S I'd rather in massive. Likewise with rogues I'd like the choice between light and medium.

[GodWood]

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
This seems like it'll devolve into "what is an rpg", it's already sort of has.

It doesn't need to, its pretty hard to debate that customization options have generally been a fairly standard thing in RPG's over the years. Removing it for the sake of removing it doesn't really make the game any better.

How about removing it for the sake of giving companions a personality and stopping players from dressing them in ridicolous clothing (for the NPC)?

If you don't want them in things you deem 'ridiculous clothing' then don't dress them in 'ridiculous clothing'.

IMmersion beats customization in an RPG any time.

Well I'd say lack of customization reduces immersion.

[Wulfram]

It would be nice if keeping them in their personal armour is made a viable option by allowing it to upgrade. Or I suppose if you can hand out end game items in DLC, you could just make their starting equipment really good.



Another alternative would be giving out specialisation specific equipment, which is designed to be appropriate for the companion with that specialisation

[tmp7704]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Oh no, what if i can't put what's his face in bland armor number 5 which is just a recolored version of #1-4!! like in DA:O!! nuuuuuuuuuuuu!!! my lifes over!!!

Frankly i'd rather have 1 stylized outfit then a buncha crappy, uninspired, often times goofy looking multiple outfits like DA:O

Considering both the companion and regular outfits are designed by the same group of artists, why do you really expect armour made for a companion to be any less "crappy, uninspired, often times goofy looking" than what they'd produce otherwise?

The only difference --if we overlook ability to put on armour which does use different model-- is, yes, you are losing potential option to put recolored versions #1-4 and you are stuck with version #5. Is that really mprovement?

To roughly translate that into DAO terms, imagine your DAO companions are indeed outfit-locked. Morrigan comes with her robe, Wynne comes with mage robes, Leliana comes with chantry sister outfit, Zevran in light armour, Sten in chasind robes, Alistair in heavy armour and Oghren in massive. And you can't change any of that. And the rest of world population runs around in 3 recolour of clothing and/or single generic armour variant because that's all the art department had resources for, having spent most time on making these other outfits which are limited to single person (plus it makes the companions stand out more as the unique snowflakes they are)

Would the game overall look better with a setup like that?

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:46 .

[crimzontearz]

Are you kidding? There are still individuals out there that think that the ME2 turn to REMOVE customization was a GOOD idea?



Really?



It's more immersive to watch Samara walk into a vacuum environment wearing just a breather and a fetishwear bdsm outfit than having her wear an armor?



You know just as immersive as watching lelliana go into a highdragonfight wearing just a chantry tunic...because you know...that is what unique and interesting people do right?



Screw common sense right?



And the worst parts are that



A: the concept of "ridiculous outfit" is subjective...I find morrigan's robes and most of the outfits in ME2 to be ridiculous...others believe the opposite



and B: (just like ng+) customizing your character's inventory and gear is TOTALLY optional. You CAN run the whole game with morrigan wearing solely her initial robes if you want while others can customize as much as they want....and everyone is happy!



Just because customization EXISTS as an option does not mean it is the only option

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

This seems like it'll devolve into "what is an rpg", it's already sort of has.

It doesn't need to, its pretty hard to debate that customization options have generally been a fairly standard thing in RPG's over the years. Removing it for the sake of removing it doesn't really make the game any better.

How about removing it for the sake of giving companions a personality and stopping players from dressing them in ridicolous clothing (for the NPC)? IMmersion beats customization in an RPG any time.

Again clothing doesn't make a companions personality, its just that, clothing. Why stop there? Why not remove classes from the game so you can make NPC's "distinct"? Hell at that point why not dumb the game and genre down further and remove companions all together? If one were to make Morrigan an Arcane warrior because they have that CHOICE, maybe they would want her in heavier gear.

Why anyone would advocate removal of choice and options in an CRPG is beyond me in the first place.

[Sir JK]

I think the viewpoint is that choices of gear is ultimately not a roleplaying choice, but a tactical combat choice. Given that there is a difference in usefullness of armour (the stat-bonuses provided) it's not even a true customisation choice since choosing what you wish might penalise your gameplay. So you can either choose between the personal/best looking/preferred outfit or the optimal one for the combat part, which is felt like a limitation of choices rather than allowing more of them.

Then there's the fact that customisation often come at the cost of narrativisation. The more options you have for something, the less it can be used in the narrative (or rather the more narrative permutations you have to take into account, which might lead to the point of skipping the entire premise due to resources). In theory, fixed sets (wether that is a single set or several) could actually be used narratively, to tell us about the personality, quirks and traits of a character (actively, unlike passively which they do now) or just forward the plot, Customiseable sets could obviously not be used this way (unless there's very few of them, which I think both sides would be unhappy with). Granted, we have not seen outfits being used that way... ever. But it's not an impossibility.

The last part is that clothing can tell us about a character at least passively. Leliana's chantry robe does tell us a lot about her, not everything but some very important parts of her personality. Likewise so does Morrigan's outfit, she's a very vain woman that is very manipulative. Incidentally, her robes accomodate both of those traits.

[FieryDove]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Again clothing doesn't make a companions personality, its just that, clothing. Why stop there? Why not remove classes from the game so you can make NPC's "distinct"? Hell at that point why not dumb the game and genre down further and remove companions all together? If one were to make Morrigan an Arcane warrior because they have that CHOICE, maybe they would want her in heavier gear.

Why anyone would advocate removal of choice and options in an CRPG is beyond me in the first place.

But...the string! So many loved Morrigan's string (top) and just can't picture her in anything else.

We must think of the string!

Also...no companions, no classes, no choices? I don't want to play that type of game.

Brockololly wrote...
And Morrigan in massive armor is awesome.

Shhhh don't tell the secret!

Modifié par FieryDove, 30 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Brockololly]

Sir JK wrote...

I think the viewpoint is that choices of gear is ultimately not a roleplaying choice, but a tactical combat choice. Given that there is a difference in usefullness of armour (the stat-bonuses provided) it's not even a true customisation choice since choosing what you wish might penalise your gameplay. So you can either choose between the personal/best looking/preferred outfit or the optimal one for the combat part, which is felt like a limitation of choices rather than allowing more of them.

But for myself at least, being able to choose what armor/gear somebody is wearing whether thats just a aesthetic choice or if I'm changing their gear for combat/tactical reasons- thats a role playing choice, IMO.

Sir JK wrote...
Then there's the fact that customisation often come at the cost of narrativisation. The more options you have for something, the less it can be used in the narrative

But conversely, if we limit each character to only one look, then you miss out on any quests like getting into the guards diguises when sneaking into Howe's estate in Denerim.

Sir JK wrote...
The last part is that clothing can tell us about a character at least passively. Leliana's chantry robe does tell us a lot about her, not everything but some very important parts of her personality. Likewise so does Morrigan's outfit, she's a very vain woman that is very manipulative. Incidentally, her robes accomodate both of those traits.

Sure, but about if the character's personality changes over the course of the game? While Leliana might start out as a Chantry robe wearing sister, what if she is hardened by the end of the game and embraces her rogue side? If we're stuck with one unique look, then I'd have an issue with a Chantry robe wearing Leliana when she is supposed to be someone who is embracing her rogueish side and not the Chantry- in that case sticking with one unique look would hurt my RP from a story stand point.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

FieryDove wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Again clothing doesn't make a companions personality, its just that, clothing. Why stop there? Why not remove classes from the game so you can make NPC's "distinct"? Hell at that point why not dumb the game and genre down further and remove companions all together? If one were to make Morrigan an Arcane warrior because they have that CHOICE, maybe they would want her in heavier gear.

Why anyone would advocate removal of choice and options in an CRPG is beyond me in the first place.

But...the string! So many loved Morrigan's string (top) and just can't picture her in anything else.

We must think of the string!

Also...no companions, no classes, no choices? I don't want to play that type of game.

Brockololly wrote...
And Morrigan in massive armor is awesome.

Shhhh don't tell the secret!

Oh right the string how could I forget! :happy:

I also suppose I should have left Leiliana in her chantry robes all game long because they offered her great protection and it told me so much more about her than you know, actually talking to her and getting her input on whatever quests we were doing or our goal. Those chantry robes were oh so important! Yeah sorry clothing is just that clothing.

[errant_knight]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Again clothing doesn't make a companions personality, its just that, clothing. Why stop there? Why not remove classes from the game so you can make NPC's "distinct"? Hell at that point why not dumb the game and genre down further and remove companions all together? If one were to make Morrigan an Arcane warrior because they have that CHOICE, maybe they would want her in heavier gear.

Why anyone would advocate removal of choice and options in an CRPG is beyond me in the first place.

But...the string! So many loved Morrigan's string (top) and just can't picture her in anything else.

We must think of the string!

Also...no companions, no classes, no choices? I don't want to play that type of game.

Brockololly wrote...
And Morrigan in massive armor is awesome.

Shhhh don't tell the secret!

Oh right the string how could I forget! :happy:

I also suppose I should have left Leiliana in her chantry robes all game long because they offered her great protection and it told me so much more about her than you know, actually talking to her and getting her input on whatever quests we were doing or our goal. Those chantry robes were oh so important! Yeah sorry clothing is just that clothing.

With clothing that changes, yeveryone can play how they want, as long a sh the character arrives in a unique outfit. There's no downside.

[ErichHartmann]

errant_knight wrote...
With clothing that changes, everyone can play how they want, as long as the character arrives in a unique outfit. There's no downside.

This.....choice is always good.