442 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Is it really so out of the realm of possibility that Bioware is only making static outfits simply to cut corners? The excuse that it makes the characters more unique is laughable. Good character development makes characters more unique, which falls to the writing staff and not the design team.

Maybe it's just me but I think creating unique body types, animations and expressions would be a lot more work than creating one body type that can fit a dozen generic armor.

[Nerivant]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Is it really so out of the realm of possibility that Bioware is only making static outfits simply to cut corners? The excuse that it makes the characters more unique is laughable. Good character development makes characters more unique, which falls to the writing staff and not the design team. I find this blind faith that so many people share to be... irritating.

It makes them look more unique, which is a small part of it.

As for character developement, trusting BioWare to develop their characters isn't blind faith as much as it is an expectation.

I'm not saying they can't develop the characters. I'm just saying that outfits have nothing to with it.
That said, if the characters are more in line with ME2 than Origins then I'm not expecting much in way of development.

Why can't people realize that even if it was similar to ME2, it wouldn't be ME2? Is it that hard a concept?

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dave of Canada wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Is it really so out of the realm of possibility that Bioware is only making static outfits simply to cut corners? The excuse that it makes the characters more unique is laughable. Good character development makes characters more unique, which falls to the writing staff and not the design team.

Maybe it's just me but I think creating unique body types, animations and expressions would be a lot more work than creating one body type that can fit a dozen generic armor.

That's the conclusion I came to as well. I think we're getting more out of this change than "unique costume."

[Nerivant]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Is it really so out of the realm of possibility that Bioware is only making static outfits simply to cut corners? The excuse that it makes the characters more unique is laughable. Good character development makes characters more unique, which falls to the writing staff and not the design team. I find this blind faith that so many people share to be... irritating.

It makes them look more unique, which is a small part of it.

As for character developement, trusting BioWare to develop their characters isn't blind faith as much as it is an expectation.

I'm not saying they can't develop the characters. I'm just saying that outfits have nothing to with it.
That said, if the characters are more in line with ME2 than Origins then I'm not expecting much in way of development.

Why can't people realize that even if it was similar to ME2, it wouldn't be ME2? Is it that hard a concept?

Is it so hard a concept that people don't want DA becoming more similar to ME?

Not wanting DA to become similar to ME and not wanting DA to become identical to ME are two different things, mate. People act like if they start changing things in DA that bring it closer to ME, they'll become carbon copies of each other, right down to the dialogue.

[Dave of Canada]

BrotherWarth wrote...

What do animations and expressions have to do with static outfits? Last I checked nothing was keeping Bioware from adding them to Origins, and nothing shows that they did add them to to DA2.

Animations and expressions matter because the models for Alistair / Sten / Oghren were based off all one model, just resized. One animation that Sten had, Alistair / Oghren for example would also have. This would lead to conversations where every character has the same animations, same mannurisms, same everything.

This lead to Sten acting like Alistair in conversation, even though in real life somebody like Sten wouldn't have the average person's mannurisms. However, we've already seen animations of conversations in the Rise to Power trailer that appear unique to characters. They make them feel more... real instead of just part of the player's toolset.

This also means that they can create unique battle animations for characters.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Nerivant wrote...

Not wanting DA to become similar to ME and not wanting DA to become identical to ME are two different things, mate. People act like if they start changing things in DA that bring it closer to ME, they'll become carbon copies of each other, right down to the dialogue.

If you mean that DA2 will be diffrent because the characters use swords and magic rather than guns and powers, yeah, DA2 will be different than ME 2.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dave of Canada wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

What do animations and expressions have to do with static outfits? Last I checked nothing was keeping Bioware from adding them to Origins, and nothing shows that they did add them to to DA2.

Animations and expressions matter because the models for Alistair / Sten / Oghren were based off all one model, just resized. One animation that Sten had, Alistair / Oghren for example would also have. This would lead to conversations where every character has the same animations, same mannurisms, same everything.

This lead to Sten acting like Alistair in conversation, even though in real life somebody like Sten wouldn't have the average person's mannurisms. However, we've already seen animations of conversations in the Rise to Power trailer that appear unique to characters. They make them feel more... real instead of just part of the player's toolset.

This also means that they can create unique battle animations for characters.

I think it has more to do with knowing what the model will look like at all times. When you can predict that, you can do different animations and not worry about potential clipping issues with, say, the Heavy Plate gauntlets. The character can also potentially interact with their clothes (imagine Isabela fiddling with her earrings or Varric adjusting his jacket like a boss as idle gestures) which as Dave says lends a more human touch than solely a one-size-fits-all list of gestures.

[Nerivant]

BrotherWarth wrote...
Where have I suggested that I think Dragon Age is becoming a Shooter-RPG set in space? I simply said that I don't want the characters in DA2 to be as shallow as some of  the characters in ME2.

Which is similar beyond the scope of gameplay changes, which is what I was talking about.

[iguanas]

well i just hope people's armor dont go over their skins like the shoulder plate of the templar armor...

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe it's just me but I think creating unique body types, animations and expressions would be a lot more work than creating one body type that can fit a dozen generic armor.

Which is probably why the companions revealed so far appear to have body type hardly different from generic characters, and expecting unique animations beyond occasional custom idle pose or maybe slightly tweaked walk/run cycle is quite unrealistic -- if they didn't have resources or will to create two different sets of class-wide animations for dual wield, getting custom set of combatanimation for just one character (and then repeat that X times for number of companions) ... well.

The expression part i don't get, what unique expressions are you talking about?

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

tmp7704 wrote...

The expression part i don't get, what unique expressions are you talking about?

Maybe he means gestures.

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maybe he means gestures.

Reading the followup that may be right guess, but if so then it seems to be just wishful thinking to me -- we only see one conversation in the Rise to Power trailer and the gestures in there are pretty generic. I don't see why anyone would conclude waving arm around would be unique and limited just to certain character, that certainly isn't the case from technical standpoint.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maybe he means gestures.

Reading the followup that may be right guess, but if so then it seems to be just wishful thinking to me -- we only see one conversation in the Rise to Power trailer and the gestures in there are pretty generic. I don't see why anyone would conclude waving arm around would be unique and limited just to certain character, that certainly isn't the case from technical standpoint.

That's... one trailer, with a very limited demonstration of what I can guess might be dialogue animations.

I mean, of course there will be a universal set of animations and gestures. But on top of that, as I said before, maybe they'll get something specific to them. Like a Summon Wench animation for Varric. (THAT is wishful thinking.) Or some idle derping for Carver.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[0x30A88]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Tbh it kind of broke my immersion in DA2 that I wsa able to command the other characters to dress as I commanded. I mean "Leliana, will you kindly walk the Denerim market in just your underware?" should be met with a slap, not an "Yes, sir!"

The problem is that noone cares, your warden could be completely naked (if you have a mod that allows you to) and yet be taken seriously when talking to people. ...even in the landsmeet.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

That's... one trailer, with a very limited demonstration of what I can guess might be dialogue animations.

Yes, but that's exactly what Dave used as his argument -- "However, we've already seen animations of conversations in the Rise to Power trailer that appear unique to characters"

Personally i'd agree trying to read anything out of that tiny sample is jumping to conclusions and seeing more what one wants to see than what is there, if that's your point.

[Dave of Canada]

The Varric / Cassandra discussion at the start, we've also seen Varric bring his fingers together in a non-trailer.
Hawke raising his sword in the sky and fist pumping.
Isabela grabbing Hawke and kissing, though this might be the standard kissing animation I doubt it.

This is all superior to the many of the varied hand waiving in Origins.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Ziggeh]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

That's... one trailer, with a very limited demonstration of what I can guess might be dialogue animations.

Yes, but that's exactly what Dave used as his argument -- "However, we've already seen animations of conversations in the Rise to Power trailer that appear unique to characters"

Personally i'd agree trying to read anything out of that tiny sample is jumping to conclusions and seeing more what one wants to see than what is there, if that's your point.

It's not just dialogue though. In the trailer, when Isabella kisses Hawke? They'd have to make sure that all armour available up to that point work with that animation. When she throws her dagger that any sort of pauldron one might give her doesn't suddenly clip through her face.

[Stick668]

Good character development makes characters more unique, which falls to the writing staff and not the design team.

Audo-visual medium. Everything is part of the character. The visual design, the writing, the voice-acting, the animation.

Compare films and stage productions where you have people responsible for costumes. Nobody demands they be fired so the writers can take care of everything. Well, nobody sensible. 

Modifié par Stick668, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Varric / Cassandra discussion at the start, we've also seen Varric bring his fingers together in a non-trailer.
Hawke raising his sword in the sky and fist pumping.
Isabela grabbing Hawke and kissing, though this might be the standard kissing animation I doubt it.

This is all superior to the many of the varied hand waiving in Origins.

Nothing suggests these gestures are limited to single character though, as opposed to being available to anyone in cutscene (steeple, kissing) or being particular skill animation shared by the class -- the fist pump thing is the "get stamina" move for warrior, iirc.

ziggehunderslash wrote...

It's not just dialogue though. In the trailer, when Isabella kisses Hawke? They'd have to make sure that all armour available up to that point work with that animation. When she throws her dagger that any sort of pauldron one might give her doesn't suddenly clip through her face.

They don't "have" to ensure that anymore than they did in DAO -- no matter how much people will moan about it clipping can and will happen. Heck, you can see how the front flap of Isabela's outfit cuts straight into her thighs when she lands after the qunari roundhouse kick, at 0:57. So much for the supposed benefits of entirely custom outfits and animations removing that.

[Balgin Stondraeg]

BrotherWarth wrote...

svendigo wrote...

Wait, so.. what's the verdict?

From the info we've got at this time, it looks like any upgrades we can make to companion outfits are strictly stat-based and won't change the appearance on their outfits.

If that is the case then they (Bioware/EA) really don't want me to buy this game. I mean, I keep trying to be optimistic about DA2 but every piece of depressing news just makes it harder.