92 réponses à ce sujet

[TcheQ]

Wow.  the OP specifically says " no kiting/exploits" and you immediately say "kite and exploit"

My question however, was an ironic one.  The only way to win Nightmare when you are outnumbered and outgunned is to use tactics that involve outmaneuvering an enemy in that way.  Any other difficulty played on, strategies that work there simply do not work for nightmare.  SOme enemies, sucha s Loghain and Branka, are prepared enough with ranged weapons.  So, yes, i agree, the opiniong that you "shouldn't kite" is a foolish one.  Of course, you could prove me wrong by posting a demo that shows you beating said ogre without using ranged.

In case you had forgotten. the ogre at this stage cannot be tanked. Ram + Grab.  Then you are dead.  You have about 120hp or so at that point, so one grab can kill you.  It's all well and good to say "have something bash it".  Yes you can.  If  it has not grabbed alistair. You cannot use forcefield.  The supplied mage  simply doesn't have that spell.  You cannot use slow effects for this purpose either.  It resists everything(most everything).  There is no teamhealing at this point.  You cannot just stand there, hack away,  and hope it dies.

And a respec?  We are talking strategy here.  Strategy is not about taking the easy way out and using mods to give you a leg up as you please, and change the game mechanics to suit you, it's about winning against all odds. Strategy that allows me to kill Wynne the first moment I get a chance.  Let's see how your brainboxes work now that you don't have her for the rest of the game.  I was actually looking forward to her watching me destroy Andraste's Ashes for real this time, but I got a better opportunity and slew her in the tower.  Yes my Rogue Noble is a complete and utter self centred idiot.
 

[Kozuka78]

*Tactics for Dual Wield Warrior on Nightmare Mode*



Equip Items

Select Enemies

Charge in.

Repeat

[Guurzak]

For those of you having trouble shattering: Winter's Grasp does NOT apply the "petrified" status flag which is required for shattering. Cone of Cold and Petrify do. A petrified target will shatter if struck by a critical hit, which means any melee attack has a small chance and autocrit abilities are of course desirable. Crushing Prison will also trigger a shatter but that seems like a waste in most cases.

[KilrB]

Daerdor wrote...

Inarai wrote...

...
- Frozen enemies can shatter.  If anyone knows the specific circumsances, please post them.
...

They shatter when hit by a critical hit. I use the following setup:
- Use Morrigan to cast Cone of Cold
- Main character sword/shield uses Overpower since the final hit is a critical one
- Leliana uses Critical shot since it's a critical hit if it connects
- Shale uses Slam since it's a critical hit if it connects

You can set these talents in the Tactics slots with condition 'Enemy - Status - Immobilized' so the party will automatically use those talents while you position Morrigan to a safe spot.

I would also recommend Stone Fist.

On my play-through the combination of Morrigan's Winter's Grasp/\\Cone of Cold and Wynne's Stone Fist has proven deadly to many a foe.

Just last night, in the Caverns above Haven I witnessed the simultaneous shattering of two drakes and a cultist mage courtesy of this combination and a pair of Overpower crits from Alister and my PC.

If you get Wynne the Petrify ability she can combo it with Stone Fist and shatter an enemy all by herself.

Many people discount Wynne because she starts with mainly healing abilitis, but levelled peoperly she can be a killing machine too.

Pretty awesome for an "old" lady.

[Inarai]

Vabjekf wrote...

Have alistair taunt it and use forcefield on him

Im amazed though how people on this forum have such strange ideas as to what is 'okay' and what is 'not ok'.

Kiting is a valid tactic, as is the above forcefield one.

How is slowing the mob down then running away as it chases you 'exploiting the mob ai'? What would a better written AI do under those situations? Run away? Thats just fear kiting. Stand still?

I prefer just using forcefield in most of my fights, but lots of people scoff at that too.

The main problem with debuffs in this game is that normal enemies are weak enough already and some bosses resist them, so they are not as effective as building up a strong core party then just doing damage and healing/forcefielding them. And CC can be powerful under some situations against some enemy types, but even then its more limited than you may realize. The times you flat out dont need it and the times it wont work are great compared to the times its really helpful and will actually consistently land.

A critical thing to do is to get that mod that lets you level up companions from level 1 when you get them. Auto leveling bothers me because it forces you to play certain parts of the game first to get companions before they waste too many of their skill points.

once you do this the game becomes much more enjoyable because the focus goes away from making your own character super awesome uber and letting the rest of the party get scraps, to having full control over the development of the other party members, and allowing you to build a party thats really based around certain strategies.

try 3 2h warriors and a mage to haste them. The idea being the number of stuns may be enough to do somthing impressive=P Thats my next play through idea.

So, to summarize:

- You disagree with my definition of an exploit.  That's fine.  But it just means that this thread isn't meant for you.  To me and it seems to others, cheap tricks like kiting take away from the fun of the game.  This is meant to be a resource for us.
- More quibbling about the definition of an exploit
- Suggesting that people alter the game itself - not needed, and frankly, if something ALREADY IN THE GAME falls under the exploit category for purposes of this thread, how the hell would that not?

Also, better written AI would take out the melee fighters beating on it, or in the case of the Ogre knock them down and hurl a rock at the mage, and THEN rush him.

[Haplose]

TcheQ wrote...
In case you had forgotten. the ogre at this stage cannot be tanked. Ram + Grab.  Then you are dead.  You have about 120hp or so at that point, so one grab can kill you.  It's all well and good to say "have something bash it".  Yes you can.  If  it has not grabbed alistair. You cannot use forcefield.  The supplied mage  simply doesn't have that spell.  You cannot use slow effects for this purpose either.  It resists everything(most everything).  There is no teamhealing at this point.  You cannot just stand there, hack away,  and hope it dies.
 

"Stand there, hack away,  and hope it dies" - this is about what I did with the Ogre on Nightmare with my Human Noble Rogue. The NPC mage casts Flame Weapon and then is as still as possible. Otherwise he will get aggro and die quickly a horrible death. Alistair in front, the PC and dog behind. PC uses strongest poison avialable. If someone gets grabbed, caster quickly uses Paralyse - it does work, but the duration is extremly short. Still, it releases from grabs. And pray that the mage doesn't get aggro. If he does, try to run around a bit with him, while hitting the Ogre with other party members. Eventually he should switch aggro. Liberally use stun skills, though they will get resisted a lot. But will at least give some breathing room when they work / interrupt enemy attacks.
Will need to use a few health Poultices, but not many if your DPS is good.

[TcheQ]

Haplose wrote...

TcheQ wrote...
In case you had forgotten. the ogre at this stage cannot be tanked. Ram + Grab.  Then you are dead.  You have about 120hp or so at that point, so one grab can kill you.  It's all well and good to say "have something bash it".  Yes you can.  If  it has not grabbed alistair. You cannot use forcefield.  The supplied mage  simply doesn't have that spell.  You cannot use slow effects for this purpose either.  It resists everything(most everything).  There is no teamhealing at this point.  You cannot just stand there, hack away,  and hope it dies.
 

"Stand there, hack away,  and hope it dies" - this is about what I did with the Ogre on Nightmare with my Human Noble Rogue. The NPC mage casts Flame Weapon and then is as still as possible. Otherwise he will get aggro and die quickly a horrible death. Alistair in front, the PC and dog behind. PC uses strongest poison avialable. If someone gets grabbed, caster quickly uses Paralyse - it does work, but the duration is extremly short. Still, it releases from grabs. And pray that the mage doesn't get aggro. If he does, try to run around a bit with him, while hitting the Ogre with other party members. Eventually he should switch aggro. Liberally use stun skills, though they will get resisted a lot. But will at least give some breathing room when they work / interrupt enemy attacks.
Will need to use a few health Poultices, but not many if your DPS is good.

I haven't explored poisons much (i'm not that kind of player), and yes this is a valid tactic, however it relies on luck (not getting the right character aggroed)

Still, your suggestion is to "run around a bit"  which certain people, in all their expertitude, would say you aren't allowed to do.

It's more me mocking the insanity of putting a hamfisted label (i.e. "kiting") on valid nightmare tactics.

To make my point clear (to avoid people misunderstanding me) pulling mobs around is an entirely valid tactic.  I would do it in real life.  In fact, in real life, it's the 100% smart thing to do. 

Thankyou also for pointing out the value of poisons =)

[Crunchyinmilk]

I have Leliana use master thief on enemies that get too close, or just for kicks. It makes absolutely no sense, but I get more money and items this way than just killing and looting the corpse. The drops suck, so every little bit helps.



Leliana tactics

[soteria]

Critical shot does work (archer skill) to shatter. Mighty blow works fairly often, and of course critical blow and stonefist work. If they don't last long enough, I suspect you're either too slow or you need more spellpower.

[Vabjekf]

Inarai wrote...

So, to summarize:

- You disagree with my definition of an exploit.  That's fine.  But it just means that this thread isn't meant for you.  To me and it seems to others, cheap tricks like kiting take away from the fun of the game.  This is meant to be a resource for us.

The problem is its claimed that kiting exploits enemy AI. How does it exploit enemy AI?

Using ranged characters, and keeping them at range, is an exploit? As i said i dont bother kiting, but unless someone can tell me some actual reasoning over how its exploity other than "it just works too well" im going to have a hard time even fathoming what their measure valid game tactic even is.

- More quibbling about the definition of an exploit

Ive explained how i think certain things are not exploits, ive not seen any reasoning on how they are other than the aforementioned 'they just work too well'.

Im all for interesting tactics (which is why i advocate removing auto leveling to give you more freedom in coming up with them), but again, how am i or anyone supposed to even know what you consider to be an exploit or not when there is no presented definition or reasoning?

- Suggesting that people alter the game itself - not needed, and frankly, if something ALREADY IN THE GAME falls under the exploit category for purposes of this thread, how the hell would that not?

Would it? If things that are in the game and do nothing to glitch/bug the enemy are considered an exploit why should i assume that a little mod that changes nothing in the game mechanics whatsoever, is an exploit?

It seems counter productive to say a few simple skill combos is an exploit and should not be used and then say that its also a great idea to leave the game auto-leveling the characters up to waste their skillpoints giving you no real option but to find a fast way within a few levelups to construct a core group strategy.

Also, better written AI would take out the melee fighters beating on it, or in the case of the Ogre knock them down and hurl a rock at the mage, and THEN rush him.

Better written AI would not have them attacking the people in heavy armor in the first place, forcefield or no.

Ive got a few ideas for some interesting party combinations im planning on trying. The aforementioned three 2h warrior and a mage one. Probably wont work with out forcefield however.

Honestly any strategy that works well enough to use will eventually be called an exploit if its not "alistair main tanking the dragon with two healers healspamming him and the PC doing 1337 dps".

What a depressing forum. I already see the hate on glyphs.

Well you know what? Heal spells are cheap! They are like free health potions. This is obviously some sort of easy mode exploit and im not going to use them! And that makes me better than all you casuals and your heal spells! Bioware, when are you going to patch heal spells out of the game?

Im still somewhat puzzled by your topic title however because kiting is by no means the simplest and easiest and sure-fireest way to win, its actually more hassle than its worth, which is one of the reasons i dont see why you have to hate on someone who decides to make a playthrough focused around the idea of robin hood arrow flingers or somesuch.

[kayapo]

This could be an interesting thread it was focused on actually
discussing different tactics instead of deciding what is an exploit and
what isn't.

I'm not sure everyone has this figured out yet but
this is a SINGLEPLAYER game. It doesn't matter one bit if you spend all
your game doing something that somebody else on a silly forums finds
cheap. Who cares? Your game, your fun. If you think it is funny as hell
to see all those big monsters trying to hit your forcefielded tank
don't let anyone tell you not to do it. Do whatever you want with your
game and don't care about how other people think you should play it.

Discussing what's an exploit is pointless.

Discussing different tactics and different views on how to tackle fights, that could be interesting.

The title of this thread is actually very good..."beyond kitting" since
everyone knows you can kite your way or forcefield your way through the
game and THAT IS FINE! Please continue to play your game the way you want it.

...but the OP is interested in creating discussion about alternative tactics.

An advice to the OP, this thread started to derail exactly when you mentioned that kitting is an abuse. That is totally irrelevant to what you wish from the thread and only tells people to derail your thread even more to argue your point.

Modifié par kayapo, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[Zelatoth]

MMm in the Nightmare, when I face an Ogre, I just use a golem form, he can resists a lot of damage and are strong too.. When the Ogre is stunned, I turn myself in the original form, and use my powerful talents... Works fine here on Nightmare..

[TcheQ]

Zelatoth wrote...

MMm in the Nightmare, when I face an Ogre, I just use a golem form, he can resists a lot of damage and are strong too.. When the Ogre is stunned, I turn myself in the original form, and use my powerful talents... Works fine here on Nightmare..

The ogre I refer to is the one at the top of the signal tower in Ostagar.  The ogre you are talking about is in the Sloth Demons Nightmare.

[Inarai]

I'll make a few points, Vab:

- I consider anything that exploits a whole in the AI's  behaviour to function to be an exploit.  Kiting, which abuses chase mechanics to keep the creature from doing anything productive, falls under that definition.  Chase mechanics are generally over-simple - the pursuer moves on a straight-line path towards the pursued, whereas in reality a pursuer would try to cut off potential avenues of escape, or just stop bothering with the idiot running around like a chicken with it's head cut off to attack someone who's actually harming it.  So, to my definiton, it's an exloit.  You may have your own, and that's fine, but it doesn't belong in this thread.

- I consider respecs to be an exploit because the characters don't come to you as a blank slate.  They have their own history, irrelevant to how they fit into your party.  In an RP sense, your character doesn't get to simply rewrite that.  Again, this may not fall under your definition of an exploit.  That's fine, but things like that aren't meant as content for this thread.

To be very general, if you alter or abuse the game's mechanics (no, that is not the same as "use".) to make it easier for you, I consider that an exploit.  You may not.  That's your perogative.  It just means you're not part of the group this thread is meant to serve.  I don't care how you play your game.  Really, I don't.  Just understand and respect that some of us have a different way we choose to play - and frankly, who knows, you might get a few good ideas from here.

This is a single-player game.  The way I play shouldn't matter to you.  If you play the way you want, and enjoy it, GREAT!  But this thread is meant to serve people who play, or want to try things, in a similar manner to the way I play.  Who knows, you might even get some alternatives out of it, too, if you want.

That make sense?

[Looy]

If you get swarmed, have your tank Taunt and everyone else fall back. Then cast forcefield on your tank and spam the group with everything you have, when the enemies are sufficiently weakened, cast crushing prison on your tank to free him and hurt the remaining mobs.

[Lord Phoebus]

Inarai wrote...
- I consider anything that exploits a whole in the AI's  behaviour to function to be an exploit.  Kiting, which abuses chase mechanics to keep the creature from doing anything productive, falls under that definition.  Chase mechanics are generally over-simple - the pursuer moves on a straight-line path towards the pursued, whereas in reality a pursuer would try to cut off potential avenues of escape, or just stop bothering with the idiot running around like a chicken with it's head cut off to attack someone who's actually harming it.  So, to my definiton, it's an exloit.  You may have your own, and that's fine, but it doesn't belong in this thread.

It depends on your opponent really, if they're slow and they don't have ranged attacks it's a perfectly valid tactic.  One used by every army with light cavalry in history really.  Say you were the Ogre fighting 4 opponents who are faster than you, any time you attack one he runs away while the others pepper you with arrows.  If you change targets, your new target starts running, and the one you were chasing starts firing arrows at you.  If you hurl a rock or charge, on your targets stuns you so you can't follow up.  There is no tactic you have available to you that would let you win, and this is the minimum energy tactic for your enemies to use against you.  It's not exploiting an AI vulnerability, it's exploiting the weaknesses of the Ogre which is what tactics are all about.

[Inarai]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

Inarai wrote...
- I consider anything that exploits a whole in the AI's  behaviour to function to be an exploit.  Kiting, which abuses chase mechanics to keep the creature from doing anything productive, falls under that definition.  Chase mechanics are generally over-simple - the pursuer moves on a straight-line path towards the pursued, whereas in reality a pursuer would try to cut off potential avenues of escape, or just stop bothering with the idiot running around like a chicken with it's head cut off to attack someone who's actually harming it.  So, to my definiton, it's an exloit.  You may have your own, and that's fine, but it doesn't belong in this thread.

It depends on your opponent really, if they're slow and they don't have ranged attacks it's a perfectly valid tactic.  One used by every army with light cavalry in history really.  Say you were the Ogre fighting 4 opponents who are faster than you, any time you attack one he runs away while the others pepper you with arrows.  If you change targets, your new target starts running, and the one you were chasing starts firing arrows at you.  If you hurl a rock or charge, on your targets stuns you so you can't follow up.  There is no tactic you have available to you that would let you win, and this is the minimum energy tactic for your enemies to use against you.  It's not exploiting an AI vulnerability, it's exploiting the weaknesses of the Ogre which is what tactics are all about.

Actually, that's half-valid - I would think, though, that the new target's job is then to get away and into a new firing position.  That's actually where the Slow would come in, making it impossible for the Ogre to keep up.  It's big and slow-ish - if you make it slower it can't really stay on you.  And keeping that stun available is actually something I did mention earlier - it's also the only way to stop his grabs.  But then, that's not really the same as kiting, if you do that - you're not abusing aggro mechanics to get him doing something he wouldn't.  And he would still just go for that rock, it takes a powerful stun to be certain to stop him - ranged ones seem to have a lower resistance threshold.  But yes, there is a difference between exploiting the ogre's own weakness to avoid him and get into positiion rather than exploiting the chase mechanics to get him to follow, and not try to outmaneuver.