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UNC assignments vs N7 missions


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#1
Quething

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There's been some talk lately about forum criticism of the games and how BioWare interprets that, specifically in terms of whether we're sending the right message with any given criticism ("we hate elevators" vs "we hate long load times. We like squad banter"). It got me thinking about one complaint in particular:

Quests, particularly sidequests of the UNC/N7 variety, were meaningful in ME1 and mindless combat in ME2.

I've seen this sentiment around. To some extent, I share it myself. Which is interesting, because it's demonstrably false. Without getting too spoilery, excluding the collection quests (since I don't think anyone's actually thinking of them when they make this complaint), there are zero noncombat UNC missions. Excluding DLC, I can think of four or five noncombat N7 missions off the top of my head (DLC adds quite a bit more). And since there are about half as many N7 quests as UNC quests, once you're looking at ratios it's even more in ME2's favor. "No story" is even sillier, every N7 mission has a clear background of what happened there and why, and several are part of interesting, progressive quest chains.

So where is this "ME1 had more story, ME2 is all combat" sentiment coming from? I don't think you can say it's anything as facile and easily dismissed as "just ME2 haters grasping at straws." Human perception is anywhere between frequently and usually inaccurate; that doesn't make it any less real. In fact, any professional advertiser could tell you that it's more real than actual fact when you're trying to sell a product. So I think it's worth trying to figure out why people are getting this impression.

I have a theory that it comes down to the ability to respond, both by the player and by the game itself. To elaborate: In ME1, most UNC quests started not on the planet, but at the Galaxy Map, with Joker relaying a distress signal or Hackett giving you a brief. Some even started at hub worlds as conversations with an NPC. You could ask questions and interact with someone as you learned about your objective, and had someone to report back to and talk about how you felt about the outcome once you were done. Several quests had long, involved conversations with NPCs before the combat or once it was over, sometimes with persuade checks and paragon/renegade choices. The majority of quests had some mission-specific squadmate dialog or commentary, allowing you to learn their opinions on your actions and the world around you. Several quests changed based on your character's personal history, reflecting the differences between different Shepards and how they impacted the ME universe.

ME2 has none of this. N7 missions often have very interesting storylines, but the player absorbs them in a completely passive way, reading notes and emails or hearing recorded messages without any opportunity to make choices* or express opinions. Squadmates are silent, or worse yet, interject random, generic lines that are sometimes jarringly inappropriate for the scenario (I can't get over Garrus' "do you think anyone's here" on the Strontium Mule. I don't know, Garrus, those guys we shot on the way in might be). There's no opportunity to gain insight on their worldviews or to define Shepard's, nothing to tie these side-missions together with the rest of the game. None of the quests change from playthrough to playthrough or reflect Shepard's actions or history in any way (even if they're intentionally downplaying Shepard's background and psych profile, things like the Council and rachni decisions could change sidequests as well). It leaves a false impression that these varied, interesting and well-designed sidequests are less so than the (in many ways much more generic) ME1 assignments, because the most important element of quest variety, the interactive one, is missing.

So now that I've wall-of-texted at you all, what do you guys think? Is this really the core of the complaint, or is it something else? How were ME2 quests better, how were they worse, what would you like to see done with sidequests in ME3?

* There is one exception. Naturally it's the one with the bugged journal entry and the poorly presented interface that had lots of people making a choice they didn't want. Still, I gather that it's one of the favorites, and I'm willing to hazard a guess as to why. :whistle:

#2
Oblarg

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Yeah, you pretty much nailed it.



The sentiment is coming from the fact that you never meet anyone in any of the missions in ME2 - it's all enemies and datapads, and as a result feels absolutely sterile and pointless. In the ME1 missions there was a good bit of dialogue and even some reactivity associated with most of the quests - this was completely absent from ME2. Even when you have to choose whether a missile blows up a colony or a factory, it's all completely disconnected and ultimately unmoving. This is compounded by the fact that you only discover most of the quests by mindlessly planet scanning, rather than meaningfully interacting with NPCs.

#3
TelexFerra

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Very well put. I don't think it's right to look at UNC and NT missions as a dichotomy. There were some missions in ME1 that were just mindless combat. 4 Geth outposts in the Armstrong Cluster? Cerberus bases full of creepers and Rachni? Mindless shooting with very little plot advancement.

This is not to say that UNC missions did not have their own merits. Even though the missions re-used the same four maps, a lot of creativity went into making some of them feel really different. Two UNC missions stand out to me. The mission where the biotic terrorists take over that ship and try to kill that guy Burns; I thought that was a really cool and well executed concept. The second mission took place on the surface of a planet where an alliance camp was fending off iwave after wave of rachni. I discovered this on my 6th or 7th playthrough and really enjoyed how fresh it was.



Mass Effect 2's N7 missions were more immersing. Each mission was different looking than the others, and there were some really nice mission chains. Unfortunately, a lot of these missions DID boil down to shooting up a bunch of people. (usually mercs) This isn't that different from the ME1 missions until you consider that, as you said, players aren't presented with a choice. Sometimes I have to ask myself. "Why does my Shepard want to shoot up this merc base? Why does she care about this mech bug? (spoiler free :D) What if my Shepard would have solved this problem differently than the solution that was forced on her by the game?"



Your argument is well thought out and explained. It's nice to see an erudite person on these boards making a thread like this.

#4
Pacifien

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I think presentation definitely is a key factor in interpreting the worth of a mission that you're on. Shepard is happening upon the N7 missions in a vacuum. No one told Shepard about malfunctioning Hahne-Kader mechs. (Aw, I just realized the HK reference. Ha.) No one sends Shepard on a quest of illegal Blood Pack activities in the system. Shepard stumbles upon them and, for some reason, takes it upon himself to right wrongs. There's going to be no Nassana Dantius-like followup on a quest that Shepard did in ME2 because there was no quest giver like her.

But there is so much about the N7 quest designs that is above and beyond the UNC quests. There is variety in enemy, terrain, objective. For the ones that are a part of quest chains, you find references between each mission segment, connecting the N7 quests to each other if not to the larger story. They even step beyond direct combat scenarios, but unless you're reading the description of the missions before, during and after, the point of it all can easily be lost. Not everyone wants to spend a few moments reading. At least with Hackett talking to you about UNC missions, you're listening to the point, you're asking questions about the point. It forces you to engage in what exactly it is you're doing.

One complaint about the side missions for ME1 is that you're supposed to be on this vital quest to stop Saren, so why are you running errands? (I'd say that's a common complaint for many wide open RPGs -- Dragon Age, Oblivion, A Bard's Tale. They all had their quests that were like 'why am I baking bread when I have demons to kill?') The response was to then make the ME2 side missions so completely optional where you had to go out of your way to ignore the main quest in order to take on the side missions. That way, if you didn't want to run errands, you really didn't have to. I'd say that was the wrong way to go.

Better to find a way to integrate the side quests into the main plot. But let's say you just want to focus on the main plot? What tells you what little quests are necessary or not to move the main story forward? There always seems to be that need to let the player know if they skip that small quest, it's okay 'cause it doesn't affect the larger story. Should the developer be getting rid of the division between side quest and main quest? Like in ME3, I get these indications of political intrigue on the Citadel and I think it might have something to do with the Reapers and I go through five little quests only to find out it was just side quests that I could have skipped all along? Ideally for me, the developers would develop their quests that way where I couldn't tell the difference, but that's my opinion. That's the way I like to the play the game. I don't pretend to think the way I like to play the game makes for good general gameplay.

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .


#5
SimonTheFrog

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I just want to add another aspect:



I think ME2 improves the overall cohesion of the game. In ME1 the UNC-mission were very distinct from the campaign missions or sidequests on the hubs. It didn't feel connected, especially because the planets were simple height-maps with prefabs thrown in whereas the campaign levels were in part very beautiful and carefully designed.

In ME2 the quality of the N7-mission is so improved that many feel like they could actually be a part of the main mission, or at least the recruiting and loyalty ones.

So, the game feels more like its being in one universe rather than two, which are vaguely connected via the journal but not visually. If you see what i mean.



That is a good thing.

#6
Pacifien

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Oh, and one aspect of the UNC missions that has not been captured with the N7 missions is the feeling I'm on a foreign planet in space. Like being on Presrop and looking up and you find this massive Klendagon with its mass accelerator weapon scar. Or the X-57 asteroid where you see the asteroid tumbling and pieces flying around you. Or even traveling across the plains and a big freaking huge thresher maw pops out of nowhere to kill you. That feeling that you weren't on Earth, weren't on a space station or a ship, you were on a completely different planet and it was weird.

#7
Randy1012

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Pacifien wrote...

Oh, and one aspect of the UNC missions that has not been captured with the N7 missions is the feeling I'm on a foreign planet in space. Like being on Presrop and looking up and you find this massive Klendagon with its mass accelerator weapon scar. Or the X-57 asteroid where you see the asteroid tumbling and pieces flying around you. Or even traveling across the plains and a big freaking huge thresher maw pops out of nowhere to kill you. That feeling that you weren't on Earth, weren't on a space station or a ship, you were on a completely different planet and it was weird.

Or the planet (I can't remember its name) with the giant red star and the little blue star up in the sky, bathing the landscape in an eery red glow. Beautiful.

#8
DarthCaine

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Let's see now:

ME1: fetch quests on copy paste bases and a vehicle that handles like a fatman on a unicycle. One squad mate says one thing, the other says the opposite choice, which often goes against their personalities.

ME2: corridor shooters with nice cinematics and varied locations and interesting choices. Squad mates stay mute.

ME2 is the lesser evil. At least the combat is actually fun

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:25 .


#9
Randy1012

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Yeah, hopping down planetside to reboot a colony's shield system was real interesting. :lol:

Bland as many of them were, at least most of ME1's UNC missions had some sort of tie to the overall storyline. Cerberus bases, geth outposts. an ExoGeni research facility, Alliance experiments/operations gone wrong, etc. The majority of ME2's N7 missions featured Blue Sun, Eclipse, and Blood Pack mercenaries as the primary antagonists--the only time those three groups were ever closely tied to the story was during the Archangel recruitment mission.

#10
Pepper4

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UNC quests (Some with vehnicle, some without) with the environment design of N7 quest = best side quests ever.

#11
DarthCaine

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Randy1083 wrote...

Yeah, hopping down planetside to reboot a colony's shield system was real interesting. :lol:

Actually I thought those kind of N7 missions without fighting were the best. It was the pretty locations that made them great.

Back when ME1 came out, the UNC missions were one of the (many) biggest complaints on forums

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:21 .


#12
Randy1012

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Because most of them took place in almost the exact same bunker with some crates moved around, not because of their content. And the Mako wasn't the problem, either, it was the poorly designed terrain.

#13
DarthCaine

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Randy1083 wrote...

Because most of them took place in almost the exact same bunker with some crates moved around, not because of their content. And the Mako wasn't the problem, either, it was the poorly designed terrain.

Which is exactly why ME2's N7 missions are better.

Though none can compete with KOTOR

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:28 .


#14
Randy1012

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DarthCaine wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Because most of them took place in almost the exact same bunker with some crates moved around, not because of their content. And the Mako wasn't the problem, either, it was the poorly designed terrain.

Which is exactly why ME2's N7 missions are better.

Better in terms of graphics and fluidity of gameplay, yes. But not better in terms of content or substance. But that's basically what the whole argument of ME1 vs. ME2 is, and I'd rather not get into that again. Even I get bored of arguing about the same stuff over and over eventually. :P

I completely agree with you about KotOR, though. B)

#15
cachx

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I think that the only upside about UNC is the dialogue and little else.

N7 missions have:

+More variety of enviroments: Bases, Factories, Abandoned Ships, Caves, Jungle Planet, Sandstorm Planet, and so on. All of them unique, no copy/paste stuff.

+More variety of objetives: People saying that are only shooting galleries are just flat-out lying. There were plenty of missions that had puzzle elements only. And even when you were shooting  some of the time it wasn't simply "clean the room" (protect the quarian, overcome the mass produced mechs, protect the cargo, hold the line for X time, etc).

+Some of the N7 missions are actually quest chains that follow an actual, albeit simple story, it's a shame it's only handled by stray datapads.

+As some smart person pointed out, no need to go back and forth like an idiot (the feared "fetch quests")

Edit: added extra stuff...

Modifié par cachx, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:36 .


#16
Pepper4

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Randy1083 wrote...

Because most of them took place in almost the exact same bunker with some crates moved around, not because of their content. And the Mako wasn't the problem, either, it was the poorly designed terrain.

The Mako DID suck. The fights with the mako were boring as hell. The Hammerhead is much more fun to control, and they designed a nice terrain for it in Overlord. The problem is that they refuse to give it decent shields and secondary fire.

#17
Pacifien

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Randy1083 wrote...
Yeah, hopping down planetside to reboot a colony's shield system was real interesting. :lol:

Bland as many of them were, at least most of ME1's UNC missions had some sort of tie to the overall storyline. Cerberus bases, geth outposts. an ExoGeni research facility, Alliance experiments/operations gone wrong, etc. The majority of ME2's N7 missions featured Blue Sun, Eclipse, and Blood Pack mercenaries as the primary antagonists--the only time those three groups were ever closely tied to the story was during the Archangel recruitment mission.

Ah, see, you think the colony shield reboot has no ties to any other storyline. Probably because you didn't read anything about what the research station was doing there and what was happening to the star system.

It is my favorite mission to bring up whenever the latest dark energy discussion crops up.

But that just kinda shows where they go wrong with N7 missions. You never get a chance to discuss the mission with anyone. Nothing makes you focus on what you're supposed to be doing there.

#18
Randy1012

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To be honest, it's been a while since the last time I played that mission, and the last few times did play it, I rushed through it because it just felt so pointless. I either skimmed over the stuff about the research colony my first playthrough, or I'd just forgotten about it since then. It's slightly intriguing that it has ties to the dark energy issue, but like you said, you never discuss it with anyone and there's never any reason to think about it after you're done. Reading an e-mail isn't the same as having someone like Admiral Hackett debrief you after completing a mission.

#19
mmmu

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I liked the N7 in the second installment of the series more. The UNC missions in the first game felt bland boring to me and the fact it was the same map designs over and over again didn't really do any positive for it. The N7 missions could use some dialogue and/or text to give more story, but I still liked them due the nice designs and atmosphere.

#20
Quething

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Pacifien wrote...

One complaint about the side missions for ME1 is that you're supposed to be on this vital quest to stop Saren, so why are you running errands? (I'd say that's a common complaint for many wide open RPGs -- Dragon Age, Oblivion, A Bard's Tale. They all had their quests that were like 'why am I baking bread when I have demons to kill?').


You make a salient point! To an extent I think that's just an inevitable artifact of the genre, but I can think of a couple ways to help. One that wouldn't really work for Mass Effect (especially not at this point) but is good in a general sense is to make the main storyline build more slowly. Start out Fallout-style with a smaller-scale personal quest along the lines of "find my father" - something you have reason to care about but which isn't particularly urgent at face value. If you hadn't known about the Reapers from day one in ME, if you thought you were just trying to find Saren and bring him to justice for Eden Prime and then the clues slowly came out during the chase the same way the truth about Sovereign does, it would seem much less weird to take time out to save the kidnapped sisters of diplomats or whatever. ME2 actually kind of does this by accident, of course, I mean did anyone really feel like The Colonists Must Be Saved, Quickly!, especially after meeting Delan?

Another way is to make the sidequests suggestive of the main plot, as you mentioned. I don't think that has to detract from them being obviously sideplots. For instance, take the Geth Incursion mission. That mission almost makes perfect sense. You know basically one useful thing about Saren, and that's that he's working with the geth. The whole reason you investigate Noveria is "somebody thought they saw a geth" and that's as good a lead as you get. So, if Hackett contacts you and says "we've got reports of geth in the Armstrong cluster," of course Shepard would check it out. Saren might be there. The player knows it's not a main mission - there's no tag on the galaxy map, the journal entry is in the wrong part of the journal, Hackett is a sidequest giver, not a main quest giver - but Shepard herself doesn't have that kind of metagame knowledge so her haring off to respond isn't weird at all. Of course they killed it in ME1, because Hackett makes it perfectly clear in the briefing that this is an unrelated event and has nothing to do with Saren, but they didn't have to write it that way. There's none of that at all in ME2, but then none of the main quests in ME2 pretend to have anything to do with the main plot, so I certainly wouldn't expect it from the sidequests.

A third way is to make it urgent. As far as that goes, ME2's "stumble upon" method is actually a good attempt; the theory is that you're scanning planets because you want upgrades, so you're in the area anyway; if you're trawling for platinum and suddenly a distress signal lights up on a nearby moon, you're not going to get many Shepards who go "the vague potential Reaper fight looming in my future can't wait half an hour to save the millions of actual lives at risk right this second." If you stop by Terra Nova to refuel, and somebody tries an asteroid drop while you're there, of course you're going to step in, y'know? Or maybe you don't, cuz you're mission-focused like that, but that way you do get a clear in-story reason to both engage and not engage with the sidequest. The problem with ME2's implementation is that, a) well, planet scanning, B) most aren't particularly urgent, and even the ones that are don't always seem that way due to the lack of an EDI voiceover mission brief going "millions will die," and c) did I mention planet scanning.

Man I am crazy with the walls of text today.

Modifié par Quething, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:33 .


#21
Phaedon

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I believe that this will be of help:

http://social.biowar...23/polls/11883/

#22
Nightwriter

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Nightwriter approves +30

The N7 missions gutted the interaction value of sidequests. The interaction was everything to me.

I didn't enjoy the chain of geth UNC missions in ME1, but I think that's the only example of a mindless shooter sidequest I can think of. I enjoyed almost all the others.

#23
Pacifien

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Thinking about this some more and the presentation of events. With N7, it is presented almost like a cutscene. You're dropped in, you do the mission, cut to mission complete. Compare to the end of a UNC assignment, I could have taken out all the mean terrorists and, rather than have it rudely cut away, I can wander around for a few minutes listening to drugged scientists muttering "Bubbles! Bubbles! The more I touch them, the more they POP!" Then, if I wanted to, I can simply walk out the door and take a joy ride in the Mako. Then, when I'm done with that, I return to the Normandy to get the eventual "mission complete" briefing. Done at my own time that way. Master of my own destiny!

Of course, the flip side is the points A to B to C trail where I have much nonfun in the Mako trying to get from one base to another over horrendous terrain. In that case, shuttle nice. Shuttle take me right where I want to go in a jiffy.

Come to think of it, one of the things I disliked the most about Noveria was that for all the work you took to get to your destination, you never make the return trip. You're instantly sent back to the Normandy after the mission is done, unlike Feros. Since Noveria was usually my last mission before the endgame, this meant I never did get to hear the followup to the Massacre of Peak 15 unless I went out of my way to revisit Port Hanshan again. Anyway, the abrupt end to that mission is like the abrupt end to all ME2 missions. Why am I not allowed to wander around (without the annoying press B to end mission button)? Why am I not allowed to go back?

#24
mopotter

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Pepper4 wrote...

The Mako DID suck. The fights with the mako were boring as hell. The Hammerhead is much more fun to control, and they designed a nice terrain for it in Overlord. The problem is that they refuse to give it decent shields and secondary fire.


And again, I'm going to disagree

I had fun driving the mako around.  It had it's problems but I always got to where I wanted to go.  I will officially say I hate the hammerhead.  I wanted to like it.  I wanted to hover over the land and fly around.  But I hate it. 

I can't get it to do squat.  I have actually committed suicide a couple of times when I went to pick it up, by driving into a mountain until it explodes because I get so frustrated.  i quite for 2 days and then came back and finally got it to the Normandy.

I can't get it to go faster when I want to and I can't get it to jump when I need to.  I pull back when I need to push forward and I hesitate when I need to jump.  I spend hours trying to do any mission that has to use it.  

What I would love to see is both of them be available.  So it takes me longer to get somewhere than someone using the hammer head, Instead of going over the volcano lava, let me find a way around it.   

#25
Nightwriter

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Well I think because there's not as much to go back to, Pacifien.

Wandering around after missions was fun in ME1 because there were people there and things to do, to interact with. The N7 missions are not interactive, there is no one there, the only thing you would be lingering for is to look at empty buildings.

... That is, if we're talking about N7 missions here.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 28 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .