150 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

DarthCaine wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Because most of them took place in almost the exact same bunker with some crates moved around, not because of their content. And the Mako wasn't the problem, either, it was the poorly designed terrain.

Which is exactly why ME2's N7 missions are better.

Though none can compete with KOTOR

Well, I agree about KOTOR.  I don't think there will ever be anything to compete with it.   

[TMA LIVE]

I prefer the structure of the N7 missions in ME2 more then ME1. In ME2, every one of them at least had a unique bit about it, aka a different environment, different enemies, different strategies, etc. While in ME1, they were all the same. Land on a planet, drive around on a rocky terrain, enter a warehouse, kill mercs, and leave. They were very copy and paste. However, they at least had a real story, with dialogue cutscenes. While in ME2, the story is all in the datapads.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[mopotter]

I enjoyed the missions in ME1. At least most of them. I liked telling someone "You assume I give a damn. That's cute" And talking to my team as we are exploring. I also enjoy some of the ME2 missions, but I don't find them as involving.

[Nightwriter]

It's hard for me to understand why people say the N7 missions are better simply because they are prettier.

I'd be hard pressed to recall any N7 missions at all if I hadn't gone back and studied them for reference in forum discussion. They are breathtaking but empty. I cannot remember them because nothing of value happened there.

Still though, they are beautifully designed. It just seems BioWare built a ballroom without having a ball in it.

[mopotter]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's hard for me to understand why people say the N7 missions are better simply because they are prettier.

I'd be hard pressed to recall any N7 missions at all if I hadn't gone back and studied them for reference in forum discussion. They are breathtaking but empty. I cannot remember them because nothing of value happened there.

Still though, they are beautifully designed. It just seems BioWare built a ballroom without having a ball in it.

Agree.  Wish I had said it as visually appealing.  

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's hard for me to understand why people say the N7 missions are better simply because they are prettier.

I'd be hard pressed to recall any N7 missions at all if I hadn't gone back and studied them for reference in forum discussion. They are breathtaking but empty. I cannot remember them because nothing of value happened there.

Still though, they are beautifully designed. It just seems BioWare built a ballroom without having a ball in it. 

You don't remember the one about the tilting ship? Or the fog planet? Or saving the Quarian? Or the mech one, where you have to keep charging it? Or the puzzle station? Or the attack of the army of robots?

There's more verity then drive on rocky planet, go inside warehouse, and kill stuff. Repeat exactly 20 times. And each ME2 N7 level had it's own unique level, which was completely different from the others.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Pacifien]

The point of the first post was that the N7 missions weren't empty in comparison to the UNC missions, but the presentation makes them so. Just as someone earlier wonders what the point of a mission where you do nothing but reengage the shields--sure, that mission is pointless except for the fact that everything about why the research station was there is an exact match for why Tali was on Haestrom. But you don't realize this unless you read about the place. And then no one helps you connect the dots unlike the UNC missions.

The N7 missions are beautifully designed. There is incredibly variety in their design. The quests are given adequate backstories. The presentation fails, though.

Modifié par Pacifien, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:05 .

[TMA LIVE]

Pacifien wrote...

The point of the first post was that the N7 missions weren't empty in comparison to the UNC missions, but the presentation makes them so. Just as someone earlier wonders what the point of a mission where you do nothing but reengage the shields--sure, that mission is pointless except for the fact that everything about why the research station was there is an exact match for why Tali was on Haestrom. But you don't realize this unless you read about the place. And then no one helps you connect the dots unlike the UNC missions.

The N7 missions are beautifully designed. There is incredibly variety in their design. The quests are given adequate backstories. The presentation fails, though.

I think the problem was they were not designed with a story. The stories were probably written after the fact. If I remember correctly, Casey once said a lot of the N7 missions were made by people on their free time, like people making Counter Strike levels.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Nightwriter]

TMA LIVE wrote...

You don't remember the one about the tilting ship? Or the fog planet? Or saving the Quarian? Or the mech one, where you have to keep charging it? Or the puzzle station? Or the attack of the army of robots?

There's more verity then drive on rocky planet, go inside warehouse, and kill stuff. Repeat exactly 20 times. And each ME2 N7 level had it's own unique level, which was completely different from the others.

I remember the tilting ship one because it was like my first one and made me go . Why is this a mission? 

Fog planet, no, mech one, difficult to recall, army of robots definitely not, puzzle station drawing a blank. (this is what my response would be if I hadn't intentionally studied the N7 missions again)

The quarian one I DEFINITELY remember, because I was hoping I'd finally get some dialogue. An actual person! Who I don't shoot! At last!

... But no dialogue. We rescue her in total silence. No words.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

You don't remember the one about the tilting ship? Or the fog planet? Or saving the Quarian? Or the mech one, where you have to keep charging it? Or the puzzle station? Or the attack of the army of robots?

There's more verity then drive on rocky planet, go inside warehouse, and kill stuff. Repeat exactly 20 times. And each ME2 N7 level had it's own unique level, which was completely different from the others.

I remember the tilting ship one because it was like my first one and made me go . Why is this a mission? 

What do you mean why? Because it was awesome!

[Nightwriter]

I went through that ship just imaging all the cool squadmate banter and dialogue that could've taken the place of the disc space that teetering ship took up.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

I went through that ship just imaging all the cool squadmate banter and dialogue that could've taken the place of the disc space that teetering ship took up.

That's writers being lazy or not being asked, not a designer's fault for trying to make a platform level for Mass Effect 2 on his free time.

I liked how you had to shoot a piece to make a bridge, or how the ships kept tilting up and down, or how you almost fall sometimes, just to grab data before the ship falls and crashes.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Nightwriter]

The data has no tangible value to me. I'm not sure what's in it and I'm not sure why I'm going after it.

I have never had the ship fall. No matter what happens it only teeters. There is no real interaction in this mission, just walking through a ship. It is incredibly glitchy. You can't save during the mission so that's especially bad, you have to reload the whole thing if you hit a glitch.

All in all, I'd just as soon have not put it in at all. As is, anyway. If I'd gotten a cool hololog when I finally reached the cockpit or something of a captain frantically describing a vorcha attack, it would be different.

[Shockwave81]

100 points for a fantastic thread. Every time I thought I had something to add, somebody else had already said it.



I have to say that I actually enjoyed the teetering ship mission - it had great atmosphere, until I read the after-mission email. I was expecting to learn that the ship had been shot down by the Collectors, but no - it was the Bloodpack.



The Mercs in ME2 took up SOOOOO much time!!! They were in practically EVERY single mission - loyalty or otherwise!! Then there were the mechs, who take the cake in terms of pointless cannon fodder.



Will the Blue Suns, Eclipse, or Bloodpack end up being an important part of ME3? If not, I'd have to question why they were almost everywhere in ME2.



Sorry gang - slightly off topic.

[Terror_K]

What's been said here is why I hope with ME3 they have a mix of ME1 UNC style locations, ME2 N7 style locations and Overlord main-hub style locations, but with all of them given a treatment more like they were with ME1's ones presentation wise.

Most of the issues with ME1's UNC planets and quests would go away if there were only about a third as many of them and if we had more interesting locales to go to as well. Similarly, having some vast, large and mostly lifeless areas would solve ME2's N7 issues of everywhere feeling small and manufactured, because we'd at least have some vast, dead landscapes in there as well. And if we have a few large places that are more alive like the main hub area in Overlord, then you kind of have the best of both worlds. Many of the N7 missions felt too gimmicky too; the basic concepts they had were decent, but when isolated like that rather than properly integrated they felt more like little experiments than actual situations. Had they been part of something bigger, it may have worked. For example, the shield restoration one would have been nice as a portion of another, bigger mission, but alone as one mission it just feels empty and gimmicky.

But all of them need decent presentation... not just a situation set up with an email or randomly popping in and then sending a silent Shepard with his/her equally silent companions to just shoot people and collect datapads. We need interesting situations and NPCs, quests that are set up outside of the planet and with Hackett or other NPC dialogues to kick it off and even resolve it. Have some dialogue moments from Shepard here and there, even with some moral choices, and have companions giving their two cents beyond some vague comment here and there (e.g. Kaidan being able to help with the L2 terrorists). The presentation and integration really needs to be there.

I think the N7 missions --like much of ME2 overall-- overcompensated for ME1's UNC failings. They made each quest and location more unique, but they also took away the exploration aspect and the feeling of epicness and exploring the unknown, and made the universe feel small and cramped as a result. And when everywhere is special, nowhere is. Add to this the lack of decent presentation, interesting stories, situations or characters, and an overall lack of dialogue and they all feel stilted and only serve to remind us we're playing a game rather than losing ourselves in a vast universe. I care more for people and am more invested in the situation when there's faces to the problem and I interact with the people involved than when they're just names and places on datapads and in emails too. I hated Cerberus for what they did to Admiral Kahoku because he was more than just a name to me, I felt bad for Garoth after giving him news about his brother, and the same went for by feelings about Nassana Dantius, Helena Blake, etc. too. I got none of that with ME2's side quests. I may have for the ones on Illium if they'd had me travel more than half a kilometre and I did more than just trip over objects on paths I was already on to complete them, but... that wasn't the case.

[kalle90]

Pacifien wrote...
One complaint about the side missions for ME1 is that you're supposed to be on this vital quest to stop Saren, so why are you running errands?

You don't have to do the side quests. You can ignore the sighing people, terminals and you can even tell Hackett we have no time. I don't blame Hackett for asking me for help and in general it didn't feel like I was in real rush.

Otherwise: OP nailed what I'm thinking. Once again it comes down to ME1 feeling like a believable, consistent world while ME2 is a series of seperate episodes. This applies to main missions too with ME1 changing dialogue based on which order I complete them, while in ME2 there's none of that.

[Terror_K]

kalle90 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
One complaint about the side missions for ME1 is that you're supposed to be on this vital quest to stop Saren, so why are you running errands?

You don't have to do the side quests. You can ignore the sighing people, terminals and you can even tell Hackett we have no time. I don't blame Hackett for asking me for help and in general it didn't feel like I was in real rush.

Some RPGs do a good job of giving you situations to logically do them, but it's rare. In ME2 one can at least just simply wait until after the suicide mission of course, but ME2's story doesn't feel as much of a race against time as ME1's one did either.

But yeah, one can artificially give the player more opportune times to perform these tasks by giving an in-game reason for a delay. For example, in ME1 they could have done a whole thing whereby Anderson and Udina tell Shepard after he/she has gathered the appropriate info on Saren that it'll be a few hours before The Council can convene for a meeting to discuss the evidence, then you give the player a choice of either skipping straight to the meeting or using the time to do the Citadel quests without it feeling like you're on the clock, since you have to wait for The Council anyway. That way it doesn't force the player to wait if they don't want, but for those who want to do sidequests and not feel silly the moment is there. Stuff like that.

[Bio D]

(DANG IT, my post vanished!)

As I was saying, I liked the locals and combat more in the N7 missions, but I thought the stories (or at least the resolution of said stories) was better in the UNC missions. You got tough choices and Paragon/Renegade decisions! In the N7 missions all you got was some text and a few remarks.

I'm on the fence about the way you got to the missions. On the one hand with the Mako you got the sense you were travelling but a small (yet suspiciously interesting ) portion of the planet, but on the other hand the Mako sucked.

Just my two cents.

[SmokeyPSD]

Actually I might be speaking alone here, but I really felt quite bored doing lots of the side missions in ME1. I found the quantity much better to deal with in 2 and found them a tad more interesting to boot.



The only reason why I even felt compelled to slug through the ME1 missions was to hear Lance Henrikson talk to me before and after. I got REALLY annoyed when he wouldn't debrief even then cause some of those missions REALLY sucked. For ME2 in my opinion cut out quite a lot of the fat of ME that was just plain dull.

[SSV Enterprise]

One major advantage that the N7 missions have over the UNC missions is variety. Sure, UNC missions had some variety in the background, but ultimately the gameplay just boiled down to shooting peole up, talking, maybe shooting some more, then done. N7 missions varied from weaving your way through a maze guided by lasers, retrieving data from a teetering shipwreck, and shutting down a malfunctioning VI. Also, very rarely were the environments recycled for N7 missions, while UNC missions were always one of four environments, with a different assortment of crates.

The unavoidable advantage of UNC missions over N7 is that UNC missions have actual dialogue. Now, this does not mean that the N7 missions don't have stories or that the stories have less impact than UNC missions. But does lead to the N7 missions feeling impersonal, less connected.

As with most things between the two games, they have their advantages and disadvantages. Which is better? It depends on personal preference. I enjoyed N7 missions more. I hope for ME3 they take a "best of both worlds" approach.

[Pacifien]

kalle90 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
One complaint about the side missions for ME1 is that you're supposed to be on this vital quest to stop Saren, so why are you running errands?

You don't have to do the side quests. You can ignore the sighing people, terminals and you can even tell Hackett we have no time. I don't blame Hackett for asking me for help and in general it didn't feel like I was in real rush.

But people want to do those sidequests. It's like they were given a choice between exploring other aspects of the game or staying immersed in the main story. Ideally, sidequests could be done without making you feel like you were putting the main quest on hold for no reason other than you want to do some other quests. Which was then what this post was about.

[kalle90]

In a way doing the sidequests in ME2 is still putting the main quest on hold. The ending of ME2 makes me think there's no time to scan random planets for merc hideouts.



IMO only ME3 can do this right out of the series. ME3 ends the main plot and hopefully allows us to continue after end credits with sidequests to complete.

[Pacifien]

kalle90 wrote...
In a way doing the sidequests in ME2 is still putting the main quest on hold. The ending of ME2 makes me think there's no time to scan random planets for merc hideouts.

Well, they wouldn't be sidequests if they were affiliated with the main quest. What I was trying to describe in the post where I brought up how sidequests were perceived was that in ME1 people felt sidequests were being thrown at you when you were supposed to be concentrating on a larger issue. The alternative was ME2's presentation where you have to go out of your way to find many of those sidequests. Neither method works well.

One example of what I mean in ME1 is that I got the paragon quest from Hackett right after I was on my way to Ilos. Have you ever tried turning that quest down with him? I was kinda {spoiler deleted} when he tried to give me that mission and he wasn't taking no for an answer.

kalle90 wrote...
IMO only ME3 can do this right out of the series. ME3 ends the main plot and hopefully allows us to continue after end credits with sidequests to complete.

Some of the perks of doing sidequests are the experience gain, upgrades, and credits found. If you're preparing for major battles in the main quest, doing the sidequests gives you an edge because of these perks. Saving them until after you've defeated the big bads might be entertaining for the additional small stories, but the immediate reward is gone. Finding the big biotic boost my Adept needs to defeat the likes of Harbinger does me no good if I found it in the sidequest after I've already defeated Harbinger. I'd have to metagame the sidequests I want to do just to level up my Shepard for maximum effect.

Which is why I'd say its preferable to work on integrating sidequests in a manner that better compliments the main quest.

Like Quething mentioned earlier, take the Armstrong Nebula quests. They had geth. You were looking for geth and Saren. It's a good lead. Turns out not to be one, but it was as good a lead as any. Only then the developers screwed up by specifically saying it wasn't a lead. That could have been written better.

Modifié par Pacifien, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Temaperacl]

From an in-game perspective, it is only really putting the main quest on hold after a certain event. [Edit: What i mean by this is that there is no in-game push of urgency for the most part of the game]

One thing I really did like about ME2 in regards to that is that some of the events of the main plot were on timers (# of missions?) which meant that if you did alot of side-quests, you could run out of time to "complete" all of the main-focused quests, which could cause you problems at the end.

Possibly reinforcing that sort of thing would help deal with the putting the main quest on hold to deal with the side quests issue - you still can do it, but it would have repercussions later on.

Modifié par Temaperacl, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Daewan]

Can I cast a frivolous vote for UNC assignments because they came from Hackett and had a voice? Although that's not completely frivolous. It made the missions feel real. Especially when Hackett apologized for asking Shepard to do something that wasn't his job, or scolded Shepard after the mission (Yeah, you might not punch reporters but my Renegade sure does), or gave Shepard a compliment. You get none of that from TIM. Just a paycheck and some shiny toys, and a note to read that you can't go back and reread later.