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[Big Blue Car]

 A new character for preordering? Seriously?

Getting Zaeed and Shale for buying the game new is fine. Second hand sales and piracy are legitimate concerns, and those bonuses were good ways to curb some of that.

But a character for preordering is different. Bioware are requiring people to make the jump and order the game before it is reviewed and before consumers can make an informed decision. It reeks of poor confidence in their product and shows they are perfectly comfortable manipulating people to get sales beyond the product deserves. And even if the character becomes DLC later it still shows that they view DLC as a way to nickel and dime players rather than a legitimate method to add expansions to the games over time.

I'm only one customer, but after hearing this Dragon Age 2 will be the first Bioware game for the X Box that I will not be preordering. If these are the tactics they are using to push sales of the game then frankly I'll be happy to wait for the pre-owned price drop.

[Stanley Woo]

Big Blue Car wrote...
If KotOR didn't have Mission, it would be reduced in quality. This is a simple concept.

Sure, but KotOR also didn't have DLC where we could hypothetically offer Skippy the Ewok Jedi as a bonus follower in a pre-order, either.

[Stanley Woo]

Shiakazee wrote...
Free stuff? How ignorant can you be?  The "free stuff" that you are referring should be in the final game of all copies.

And that free X-box the car dealership is advertising when you buy a new car should be in every new car! And those bonus batteries that came with that camera should be in the packaging for all new cameras! And that bonus 30% cereal I'm getting in the bigger box should be in the smaller box!

Seriously, what standard of "complete" game do people subscribe to here? Are we not allowed to release any DLC or expansions because that makes the original game less "complete?" what about sequels? Is Dragon 2 not permitted because it's not the "complete" Dragon Age franchise experience? At what point can something be considered a "bonus," "extra" or "additional content" anymore?

Jeeze, remember when you could buy a complete game day one.  DLC is another rip-off of content that should have been there in the first place.  Mind you there is some content that is developed after, a lot of it is just stuff that the devs hold back so we can pay for it later.

Ah, so you're speaking out of a rather extreme bias against DLC in general. Your conspiracy theories aside, I'd like to see some--any--evidence for that. Since it appears to be so prevalent, where is your evidence that this happens at all?

Come on, folks. You either believe us when we tell you something, or you don't. If you believe us, then please, believe us when we say we have no malicious intent when we develop DLC as an add-on to a whole, complete game that we'd like you to enjoy. If you don't believe us, why do you keep asking us for answers?

[Stanley Woo]

bobobo878 wrote...
I don't mind when they create DLC AFTER the game is finished, but I do mind removing portions of the game created before release and selling them separately.

Shale is a perfect example of a DLC that contained content that was originally in the game. The content was removed due to not having enough time/resources to finish it, but due to the delay in DAO's release, it was decided to finish the content and release it as DLC. Based on your post, you would prefer that the excised Shale content never see the light of day ever because it was originally in the main game!

Aside from that, I think we can manage our own time and resources and develop the content we need when we need to, thank you. We can't very well have developers just sitting around twiddling their thumbs just because of a perception that we're doing something inappropriate. Developers get restless.

[John Epler]

As I've posted before - I think part of the fault lies in the fact that most people aren't really aware of the timeline required for game development. There's a good chunk of time at the end where the content that goes on-disc cannot be touched because the game is in certification - that is, getting various companies (usually the console manufacturers and our own publisher) to approve our game for release.



That's generally when early-release DLC is made. Sure, some work is done on it beforehand - but we're talking a bare minimum to make sure that it will, eventually, work with the main game, and to give those whose work has to be done much earlier than everyone else's something to do (usually, the pipeline goes - writers write the dialogue, they finish up with it and hand it to Cine Design, who does the cinematic design work, which then goes to Audio who adds Foley and the like). Not to mention there's a separate budget and timeline specific to DLC - if that content isn't made as DLC, it's not getting in the game. Period.



Of course, I've explained this before and been told I'm a liar and a shill. I prefer plant - it makes me feel more like I'm in a magic show!

[John Epler]

NKKKK wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

A bunch of stuff

Then show us, surely you can find a way to proove to us that this content would be cut if it wasn't for DLC. But if rules prevent you, then sorry I can't believe you.


I'd be happy if you just told us the truth, that this is a way to prevent piracy.

At this point, I'm fairly certain that if a booming, disembodied voice spoke to you in your sleep and said 'NKKK - THE BIOWARE GUY IS TOTALLY TELLING THE TRUTH. I CAN SEE THE HEARTS OF MORTAL MAN. ALSO, HE'S A HECK OF A SNAPPY DRESSER', you wouldn't be content. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Stanley Woo]

NKKKK wrote...
Then show us, surely you can find a way to proove to us that this content would be cut if it wasn't for DLC. But if rules prevent you, then sorry I can't believe you.

We've told you explicitly. You've seen a lack of DLC in some of our previous games where we might have offered something extra. And we've released Shale in that fashion. As I said before, at some point you've either got to believe that we're telling the truth, or accept that we're lying and quit asking us for information.

I'd be happy if you just told us the truth, that this is a way to prevent piracy.

It doesn't prevent piracy, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Day 1 DLC provides a bonus for those who buy the game first-hand. And that's not a secret. We've said it many times over the last couple of years.

[John Epler]

Big Blue Car wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
Lots of stuff that makes sense

I understand that you are part of an industry and that everything is more complicated than it appears, and thanks for shedding some light on the process for us But consumer opinion matters and it's good that we are discussing our concerns.

Definitely! I'm being serious when I say that part of the blame is on the industry as a whole. We're never very transparent about how game development works - before I started working here, I had no idea how long a game was actually complete before it got released. Certification process, content lockdown - didn't mean anything to me. And I'm not sure how I'd feel about PRC if I hadn't been in the industry when the practice started becoming more common.

Anything I can do to shed a little more light on the situation, I'm more than happy to do so. I completely understand people who are concerned - if you're unaware of the time and resource factors involved, it can look a little strange. But it really isn't a matter of just stripping content out of the game and selling it to people after the fact. If it were, I'd probably be a lot less busy

[John Epler]

Folks, let's keep it polite and civil.



Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and they're entitled to discuss it without being attacked.

[John Epler]

Alright. Consider this a warning to cut out the personal insults now, please - on both sides of the argument. Referring to another person's post as 'pure idiocy' is not acceptable.



If you can't be respectful when you post, you won't be posting for very long. Plain and simple.

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try and keep the discussion on-topic, please. Thank you.