472 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

metal_dawn wrote...

Ffs. I wish "Critical thinking" courses had never entered into university curriculum. The excessive pointing out of "fallacies" is reaching pop culture status. I bet you all feel so darrrrn smart.  Cudos on the regurgitated book smarts.

Actually, my post was rather tongue-in-cheek.  The fact the "Fallacy fallacy" even exists makes pointing out a fallacy as a "Ha! Gotcha!" kinda pointless.  Well, that and the contents of Maria Caliban's post does a good job at explaining the limitations of logic.

In any case though, rhetoric is a lost art.  People expect their opinions to carry weight just because they're entitled to them, and it doesn't work that way.  Less often posters will be legitimately surprised that their inflammatory language upset people despite their innocent intentions.  So, sometimes an argument that is decisively labeled as logically sound, but isn't, is asking to be called out for it.  Sometimes it's better just to try and see where the person is coming from.  I can't say with any confidence that one approach is consistently better than the other.

Edit: Anyway, based on Woo's warning below.  I'll take my leave.  I can't possibly say anything more on this topic than I have here or in other similar threads.  A lot of people - including myself - have gotten to repeating themselves more egregiously than in those "What is an RPG?" threads and don't see the point in continuing.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:55 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try and keep the discussion on-topic, please. Thank you.

[Maria Caliban]

[spam removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:23 .

[Gemini1179]

Micro-transactions. This is the point we are at in the evolution of this industry. Piracy and a flooded marketplace have nudged things in this direction. What does this mean for you and I, the consumer? Well, I can speak from my own experience that my gaming has gone from playing many games 10 years ago, to just two or 3 a year today. However, I feel that the product quality has increased dramatically in order for companies to nab their market share. I don't have a huge problem with this.



Let me give an example: Dragon Age and Bioware in general have a good track record in general. In fact, I purchased DAO for the Xbox 360 solely on the trailer that I saw on tv. I had no previous knowledge of the game and I was not a member of the forums prior to purchasing it. Honestly, my initial reaction was a bit of a disappointment as I had come off playing ME1 again and to have a Bioware RPG that wasn't fully voiced? Seemed like a step back to me- but I plugged through and found DAO to be one of the most enjoyable games I had played in years. (A guy can only play Oblivion for so long and I'm so over simple shooters)



Now in comparison, I had been well aware of Star Wars The Force Unleashed far in advance of it's debut. I had kept up on the story and development process and was very excited for the game to come out. Once it came out however, I found the game incredibly lacking in story and gameplay elements I enjoy even though it looked great. Fast forward to earlier this month when I was considering pre-ordering the Force Unleashed 2 Collector's Edition- I looked and looked, yet no matter how much I may enjoy the Star Wars franchise, I decided to wait for reviews- and sure enough, my brother rented it, beat it in a day and said that there was no advancement in the story elements and the gameplay was monotonous.



In conclusion, I don't mind being the fish chasing the bait for a new game I faith in, and I have faith in DAO2 despite some of my early concerns. I won't mind purchasing the DLC for DAO2 either because I'm not worried about budgetting for Call of Duty, the Halo franchise, Borderlands, Assassin's Creed, etc.



My games now are the ME franchise, DAO, and Fable.

[AlanC9]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

It makes a lot of sense actually as promoting it to everyone who preorders will make more people pre-order the game - great if you'd expect some people not to buy it because of radical changes. Additional stuff will not make anyone buy the game if he did not plan to buy it anyway, it is supposed to convince those who might not buy it. And since EA/Bioware currently have a close-to-0 info policy...this might be a good idea. Not everyone gew up with the awesome Baldur's Gate series

You may have misunderstood my objection; I agree that Day 1 DLC can promote the game, sure.But they'd have to be stupid to pull DLC content from the main game as opposed to developing that content separately. There simply is no upside to managing the projects that way.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Ah, well, iirc the at-start-DLC is indeed developed independent from the rest of the game.

[Maria Caliban]

Stanley Woo wrote...

[spam removed]

Spam? It's fine that you don't like it, but don't reduce my work to spam.

[Revan312]

If only more game companies were like Valve, free DLC is always a better way to say "thank you" to the fans than exclusive/preorder/paid for DLC, and if you argue against that than what's the point of this conversation, your a dyed-in-the-wool apologist.. end of story.



No matter what your take on the DLC issues at hand, we all must admit that the gaming industry's tactics as of late are becoming more and more greedy, not just Bioware, but the entirety of VGs. This is disheartening to know that Bioware is now pretty much set on marketing strategies like this, but it's really no surprise, everyone is doing it in an attempt to break "pirating/second hand" which is, while on the topic, a fallacy as it simply promotes pirating, exclusives especially. DRM, DLC, constant internet connections needed to access saves with embedded DLC, price to quality ratio of DLC being out of whack etc are all leading to more and more piracy which is funny really that they're driving the underground community with attempts aimed at the opposite, reminds me of the drug war.



Really the only thing that's upsetting is that everyone just acts as though DLC tactics and exclusive bonuses are here to stay and to "get used to it" which wouldn't be the case if people actually put their money where their mouth is and didn't buy DLC, in a few short years it would die out and we could get back to expansions and true experience enhancing content, instead we're left with a bunch of people saying the gaming industry is just this way now and that there's no way to change it.. Until people actually stop giving in to their lust for content that never really satiates, it will continue.. The gaming world is simply fubar..

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Revan312 wrote...

If only more game companies were like Valve, free DLC is always a better way to say "thank you" to the fans than exclusive/preorder/paid for DLC, and if you argue against that than what's the point of this conversation, your a dyed-in-the-wool apologist.. end of story.

How was the DLC for L4D?   Discontinued and turned into a full price game?  Whoops, there goes your point!

No matter what your take on the DLC issues at hand, we all must admit
that the gaming industry's tactics as of late are becoming more and more
greedy, not just Bioware, but the entirety of VGs.  This is
disheartening to know that Bioware is now pretty much set on marketing
strategies like this

The quality of the games has gone =way= up since the garbage graphics and sound of the past. Games impress me more, games are worth more.  Fair exchange. 

As for piracy, it is a great argument to get rid of net neutrality. 

Really the only thing
that's upsetting is that everyone just acts as though DLC tactics and
exclusive bonuses are here to stay and to "get used to it" which
wouldn't be the case if people actually put their money where their
mouth is and didn't buy DLC, in a few short years it would die out and
we could get back to expansions and true experience enhancing content,
instead we're left with a bunch of people saying the gaming industry is
just this way now and that there's no way to change it.. Until people
actually stop giving in to their lust for content that never really
satiates, it will continue.. The gaming world is simply fubar..

Bzzzt, wrong!  The gaming world has matured into a real industy.  The "old skool" can wail and moan and stroke their neckbeards all they want, but it ain't every going back to the crappy days.  DLC is great and it is here to stay.  Snack sized content delivered regularly is perfect for an evening (or a week with multiple characters) and it costs  practically nothing.

The gaming industry isn't "just this way," it's finally this way.  And like most people who love games, I'm going to help keep it this way. 

:lol:

[slimgrin]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

The gaming world has matured into a real industy.  

That it has. And most dlc is still a rip off, not for the price as much as the shoddy content.

[Ryzaki]

Totally off topic but what does fubar mean?

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Totally off topic but what does fubar mean?

F__ed up beyond any repair/all recognition.

Personally I prefer SNAFU.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:21 .

[Revan312]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

How was the DLC for L4D? Discontinued and turned into a full price game? Whoops, there goes your point!

Umm, I downloaded the passing and sacrifice DLC's for what was it? nothing, oh that's right...

The quality of the games has gone =way= up since the garbage graphics and sound of the past. Games impress me more, games are worth more. Fair exchange.

As for piracy, it is a great argument to get rid of net neutrality. {smilie}

If graphics and sound are your idea of quality then ya, but if storyline and gameplay are, then games have become shovelware copy cats that regurgitate the same crap over and over and over... My favorite games are all from 5+ years ago, in fact not a single game has come out in the last three years that I found immensely enjoyable including Bioware's as they keep using the same stale stories and character cliches.. zzzz, MMO's, FPS, strategy, action, adventure and even puzzle games are all, imo, becoming completely interchangeable anymore so your "quality has gone way up" is completely subjective and completely off topic to the issue at hand.

And on Net Neutrality, I hope your being sarcastic, because if you really believe that than your a schill.. Yah, lets get rid of privacy and hand over all control of content online to a bunch of government officials and corporate bottom liners.

Bzzzt, wrong! The gaming world has matured into a real industy. The "old skool" can wail and moan and stroke their neckbeards all they want, but it ain't every going back to the crappy days. DLC is great and it is here to stay. Snack sized content delivered regularly is perfect for an evening (or a week with multiple characters) and it costs practically nothing.

The gaming industry isn't "just this way," it's finally this way. And like most people who love games, I'm going to help keep it this way.

Matured into a real industry? You mean found the wonders of corporate profit prioritization. And how does DLC cost nearly nothing? 5 bucks here, 7 there, 10 down the road, it adds up and if you consider 10 bucks for 1/10th of the content of a full game as being cheap then you fail at math.

Since people have been using the dreaded car analogies, I'll use one myself, think about buying a car for 20k and then having the cup holders dangled in front of you for only another 400 dollars, sure it's cheap compared to the car and you don't necessarily need them, but for what you get it's a ripoff, especially when the cup holders don't work properly or require a constant internet connection to hold your drinks.

You can keep supporting the gaming industry, I have no doubt you will after that ridiculous argument you just made, I just wish as I said before, that people would wake up and start seeing the nickel and dime BS that is flooding this industry, or as you would say, the maturation of the industry *rolls eyes*

Modifié par Revan312, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:48 .

[craigdolphin]

Ever since the Mass Effect release I've been a gamer that's on a hair-trigger when it comes to DRM and the issue of piracy (as I'm sure Chris Priestly can attest). But the idea that pre-lease bonus concept, and DLC in general, are somehow a piracy-related strategy seems very unlikely to me. Personally, I've been convinced that the DRM fiasco was primarily a response to the second hand sales issue, and the piracy issue was not much more than a PR-smokescreen to justify it. So, I think the newer strategy of the cerberus network and day1 DLC etc to get the developers some money from gamers who buy games second hand is a much better strategy for consumers and bioware both: it doesn't penalize gamers who buy games new like excessive DRM does, and the developers get a new revenue stream which second hand game buyers can optionally decide to participate in or not.

And I'm happy that DLC exists: paid or free. I have no doubt that most of this post-release additional content is created separately from the game (and honestly, the fact that most DLC content does not mesh with the larger story of the game itself makes the point itself I think). Yes, obviously, some Day1 DLC like Shale was made before the release date. As I said, I think that's more to do with generating revenue from second hand sales for those gamers who want 'more'.  There's nothing wrong with that. No one is forcing gamers who purchase the game second hand to get the DLC. They can complete the game without it. And as one of the devs has explained, there are periods prior to release when developers cannot work on the main game so why not have them make some extra goodies for those who want them? Now, I do think that much of the paid DLC is being priced too high for the amount of playable time but that's another subject altogether.

One of the things I like about DLC is that I only have to pay for the ones that appeal. I had no interest in the 'playing as a darkspawn' DLC so I didn't buy it. The morrigan DLC sounded like a major let-down story and duration-wise so I didn't buy that either.  Leiliana's DLC was more aligned with my interests and I bought it, despite the duration. That's the way it should be. We get to vote with our money. Hopefully there are enough people with similar tastes to mine that will encourage Bioware to make DLC's much more story-oriented. If not, C'est la vie.

But I do agree with one thing that the OP mentioned: The pre-order bonuses for DA2 are pretty darned sweet IMO. And that puts me in a slightly awkward spot. I adored DA:O. I'm positive about many (most) of the changes for DA2. But I'm flat-out negative about some of the aspects of the new art-direction (the skeletor-like darkspawn and the empty/bland/austere environments). So, while there is a 0% chance of me not buying DA2 (unless excessive DRM/Securom makes an unwelcome return), I'm still trying to decide whether to buy the PC-version only new, or both the PC and XBox versions new. I'm waiting to see more screenshots of other environments and gameplay before deciding for sure. In my case it's likely I'll find out more about my two areas of concern prior to release. And thankfully, Bioware have provided a fairly long time interval for the pre-order goodies. (So, thanks for that!)

For folks that are more on-the-fence than I, the inability to read reviews prior to making a purchase decision means they are being asked to buy 'on-faith', or else miss out on some really kewl stuff. Now, Bioware /deserves/ a lot of faith in my book. Their track record is awesome. But, there has a been a stream of news focused on some fairly polarizing changes to the DA:O formula, which so many of us loved. So, putting on the acid for us to pre-order before independent reviews are available seems...naff... really. It's a reasonable thing to complain about, in my opinion. Personally, I think the offer should be extended to include at least the first couple of weeks post-release too.

Don't misunderstand me: it's great that Bioware wants to reward those who will pre-order 'on faith'. But it's a teensy bit mean spirited (IMO) to not provide the opportunity to get the same kewl stuff for those who have been a bit put off by the early-marketing stream that has focused almost exclusively on the many large changes to the much-loved DA:O template and want to wait for some independent reviews before buying. 

Sorry for the long post. And thanks for the insightful dev posts regarding the game development process itself.

Modifié par craigdolphin, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Icinix]

I've never had a problem cancelling a pre-order. Even on day dot.

I had Medal of Honor pre-ordered, but canned that when I saw the reviews. Reviews were a day or two before the game came out anyway.

Just changed my initial deposit over to The Old Republic. (Which I will also cancel if I get enough bad vibes).



I really like what they're doing....what I don't like though....is that there is no Physical collectors edition...so shameless no, but lazy - DEFINITELY! * shakes fist angrily in roughly BioWares general direction * Nah I kid, I understand why there isn't one.

[soteria]

The quality of the games has gone =way= up since the garbage graphics and sound of the past. Games impress me more, games are worth more. Fair exchange.

You could add that they basically cost about the same, especially if you adjust for inflation.

[Icinix]

soteria wrote...

The quality of the games has gone =way= up since the garbage graphics and sound of the past. Games impress me more, games are worth more. Fair exchange.

You could add that they basically cost about the same, especially if you adjust for inflation.

Even without inflation. Paid $80 for Tie Fighter, $80 for Command and Conquer, and $80 for Dragon Age 2.

[Dave of Canada]

Revan312 wrote...

If only more game companies were like Valve, free DLC is always a better way to say "thank you" to the fans than exclusive/preorder/paid for DLC, and if you argue against that than what's the point of this conversation, your a dyed-in-the-wool apologist.. end of story.

They also added a microtransaction shop.

[JrayM16]

Car analogies fall under the weak analogy logical fallacy...

[Revan312]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

If only more game companies were like Valve, free DLC is always a better way to say "thank you" to the fans than exclusive/preorder/paid for DLC, and if you argue against that than what's the point of this conversation, your a dyed-in-the-wool apologist.. end of story.

They also added a microtransaction shop.

From a news article about that TF2 shop...

"Valve's "Mann-conomy" update for Team Fortress 2 adds something that's been missing from the game all these years: microtransactions.

The new Mann Co. Store in Team Fortress 2 allows players to purchase
weapons and items that previously required time and effort to obtain.
Valve notes that all items affecting gameplay will still be available
through other, non-microtransaction means, as will most of the purely
cosmetic loot. Prices range from 49 cents to $4.99.

Among the first pieces of equipment arriving on the store is the
community-designed Polycount Pack -- a suite of brand new items for five
of the game's classes. Portions of the sales from the Polycount Pack
will go to the fans who helped create it, and the developer has plans to
eventually allow the TF2 community at large to release content on the
Mann Co. Store.

The company says it has no plans to abandon its three-year
tradition of free updates for Team Fortress 2. "Segregating players into
groups that can't play together, based on who bought what, is something
we'd like to avoid," reads the developer's official Mann Co. Store FAQ."

You can still get everything in the game by playing the game, portions of the profits go to the fan modders that made the new items and an ability later to allow fans to put their own items up on the store.. Boy that does sound bad.. <_<

Valve is a lot more generous than any other game company out right now.  They seemingly care about their community and still release free content all the time, have free dedicated servers, dev kits and more. I'd take their form of community generosity over EA's or Activision's any day, period.

Now I have no problem with some DLC, LotSB is a good example everyone throws around.  I didn't expect that to be free as it had a lot of dev time and VO fees associated with it, plus it was actually GOOD, but exclusive item packs, pre-order bonuses, 20 minute hack and slash fests for 7 bucks etc are simply cash grabs and the reason I even give a crap as yes they are optional and no I don't buy them, is because it takes the dev time away from actual well done content, such as expansions that add many hours of content and that mostly tie in well with the main game.

Most of the DLC material out for DAO is at a lower quality level than many of the mods I downloaded for Oblivion back when, the reason I know such is because my former roommate buys literally everything he can for the games he plays, he spends gobs of money on DLC which is no skin off my teeth, but after watching the actual content he's payed for, it's laughable how shallow most of it is.  I wish DLC would disappear for a multitude of reasons both economic and enjoyment centered, but primarely I dislike it because most of it leaves no room for actual well done content that expands the experience beyond the utterly trivial and mundane. It's content made for the ADD generation where going a month without something to tag onto your game means you move on.

And with my completely grumpy old man rant done *grumble*, I shall take my leave and read a book or *gasp* go outside on my day off, (it's been too long nature, hopefully you haven't spurned me because of negligence)

Modifié par Revan312, 29 octobre 2010 - 10:04 .

[The Masked Rog]

Most of the DLC material out for DAO is at a lower quality level than many of the mods I downloaded for Oblivion back when, the reason I know such is because my former roommate buys literally everything he can for the games he plays, he spends gobs of money on DLC which is no skin off my teeth, but after watching the actual content he's payed for, it's laughable how shallow most of it is. I wish DLC would disappear for a multitude of reasons both economic and enjoyment centered, but primarely I dislike it because most of it leaves no room for actual well done content that expands the experience beyond the utterly trivial and mundane. It's content made for the ADD generation where going a month without something to tag onto your game means you move on.

God, I love it when people take an entire generation, place a tag on it and then proceed to ramble about how great thinks where back in their time and how they should have stayed that way and that any inovation is surely the work of the devil. Yeah, DA DLC was less than stellar (I saw someone playing Leliana's Song though, and must say it seemed very cool) but there have been crappy expansion packs back in the "good ol'days". People should act as informed customers, get some research done and then decide whether they buy or not, based on reviews and other info, not a DLC tag or expansion tag.

EDIT: ABout the TF2 micro transaction, I've seen online games be ruined by offering an "edge" to players who pay, while keeping players who invest no money playing against them. "Look, that guy joined a week ago and he already has all the weapons I've dreamed to get for 6 months"

Modifié par The Masked Rog, 29 octobre 2010 - 10:16 .

[Dave of Canada]

Revan312 wrote...


You can still get everything in the game by playing the game, portions of the profits go to the fan modders that made the new items and an ability later to allow fans to put their own items up on the store.. Boy that does sound bad..

I don't understand this logic. Fans make content, they charge for it and it's perfectly fine because a portion of the money goes to the people who made it. Bioware makes content, charges for it and the money goes to the people who made it (themselves) suddenly making DLC a horrible practice.

Edit: To expand further on this.
The content made isn't made by the TF2 team, they don't raise a finger and they make a portion of the money. That's rather shady, imo. It's almost like if Bioware starting charging for fan mods.

Valve is a lot more generous than any other game company out right now.  They seemingly care about their community and still release free content all the time, have free dedicated servers, dev kits and more. I'd take their form of community generosity over EA's or Activision's any day, period.

Bioware / EA also gave the community it's DA:O toolset, I don't see how that's not geneorsity by itself.

Valve also charges for content on the consoles.

I didn't expect that to be free as it had a lot of dev time and VO fees associated with it, plus it was actually GOOD

Quality is another complaint entirely, even bad DLC has dev time and VO fees attached to it.

but exclusive item packs, pre-order bonuses, 20 minute hack and slash fests for 7 bucks etc are simply cash grabs and the reason I even give a crap as yes they are optional and no I don't buy them, is because it takes the dev time away from actual well done content, such as expansions that add many hours of content and that mostly tie in well with the main game.

We can agree here, I'm not a fan of nickle and diming.

I wish DLC would disappear for a multitude of reasons both economic and enjoyment centered, but primarely I dislike it because most of it leaves no room for actual well done content that expands the experience beyond the utterly trivial and mundane.

Good DLC, like Shale or GTA4's Balade of Gay Tony, does increase the experience of the player. While I could fully enjoy the game without her, she's still an interesting character and adds more depth to a game. While I do understand your point of view, and I'll take Witch Hunt for example, the quality of said DLC is another complaint entirely.

There's some amazing DLC out there.

It's content made for the ADD generation where going a month without something to tag onto your game means you move on.

*sigh* At least you didn't bash consoles.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 octobre 2010 - 10:27 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

It all depends on the context. If the game seems incomplete story-wise without the DLC/preorder bonus, then you're taking content from the game and selling it seperately. If, however, the game is complete without the DLC, then it is a true bonus.

[addiction21]

I am a long term fan of Valves but kep it in perspective. They have an advantage over the other developers and that advantage is called STEAM.
They have an added source of revenue and its not like Valve is doing this for all their... what 3 games? Just one and just for multiplayer. Where are the Free HF2 expansions, mods, Or even some multiplayer action? How about Portal, SIN, CounterStrike?

Lets be real here. Free is an exception to the rule even for the great and mighty Valve.

Modifié par addiction21, 29 octobre 2010 - 10:33 .

[AtreiyaN7]

addiction21 wrote...

I am a long term fan of Valves but kep it in perspective. They have an advantage over the other developers and that advantage is called STEAM.
They have an added source of revenue and its not like Valve is doing this for all their... what 3 games? Just one and just for multiplayer. Where are the Free HF2 expansions, mods, Or even some multiplayer action? How about Portal, SIN, CounterStrike?

Lets be real here. Free is an exception to the rule even for the great and mighty Valve.

I think the chicken makes a good point here. Also, as was mentioned in an earlier post by someone, while PC users like myself got the L4D/L4D2 DLC for free, everyone else had to cough up money for the same content. Let's not forget that Valve created Steam and that they manage to earn a nice chunk of change for themselves through their creation. It's not as if Valve is some sort of totally altruistic, benevolent developer that gives free candy to everyone.

I like them, and they put out solid products, so really, I don't have any problems with what they're doing business-wise with Steam. I just don't think it's fair to hold Valve up as an example of how generous all other devs should be. Just in case someone from Valve reads this:  I AM GETTING A WEE BIT TIRED WAITING FOR HL2 EPISODE THREE!!!!! Ahem.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:06 .