472 réponses à ce sujet

[Evindale]

Sable speaks the truth, I've not long covered this in a giant flow diagram at uni. A fun, productive hour if ever there was one.

[Wicked 702]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Uh...............no. Not even close. You've got your positions mixed up.

See, we're the hand that feeds THEM, not the other way around. Learn to think like a consumer, not a puppet.

*sigh*  It goes both ways.  Shocking, I know.  They make stuff--you buy it, which gives them more money to make more stuff.  They provide us with fun video games, we provide them with money.

But just because you vote for what you like with your money does NOT mean BioWare--or any other creative developer for that matter--is beholden to your every whim.  They do what they like, and if you don't like it, don't pay for it.  No one is anyone else's b**** here.  And if you actively WANT a studio to be your b****, go found your own studio and see how well that works out.

Yes, that is correct. But you invoked the all powerful "be grateful for what you have" statement of epic fail. Why you did that and then turned around and made a completely coherent and valid point is beyond me, but here we are.

[Big Blue Car]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Seriously, what standard of "complete" game do people subscribe to here? Are we not allowed to release any DLC or expansions because that makes the original game less "complete?"

What people object to is the way that additional content is being used. A decent addition, like Rockstar's Undead Nightmare or Lair of the Shdowbroker, is great. It's a chance for the fans to get more of a game they enjoy and for developers to add more depth to the game and get revenue as they do it.

But the additions Bioware largely are making aren't like that, quality arguments aside they are using additional content as a peripheral to the main game, developed alongside it to encourage consumers to make potentially  bad choices about the product they buy ie order before you are informed or you miss out. The ethics of that behaviour aside, it means that when we go to a shop and buy your game, because now we know it's good, we are aware that parts of it have been arbitrarily cut off for us because they were part of a marketing strategy. For me at least that that makes me feel manipulated and it's the reason I won't be buying Dragon Age 2 at launch.

Sorry if I haven't communicated my argument properly here, it's a difficult issue to describe but it does matter.

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .

[John Epler]

As I've posted before - I think part of the fault lies in the fact that most people aren't really aware of the timeline required for game development. There's a good chunk of time at the end where the content that goes on-disc cannot be touched because the game is in certification - that is, getting various companies (usually the console manufacturers and our own publisher) to approve our game for release.



That's generally when early-release DLC is made. Sure, some work is done on it beforehand - but we're talking a bare minimum to make sure that it will, eventually, work with the main game, and to give those whose work has to be done much earlier than everyone else's something to do (usually, the pipeline goes - writers write the dialogue, they finish up with it and hand it to Cine Design, who does the cinematic design work, which then goes to Audio who adds Foley and the like). Not to mention there's a separate budget and timeline specific to DLC - if that content isn't made as DLC, it's not getting in the game. Period.



Of course, I've explained this before and been told I'm a liar and a shill. I prefer plant - it makes me feel more like I'm in a magic show!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Yes, that is correct. But you invoked the all powerful "be grateful for what you have" statement of epic fail. Why you did that and then turned around and made a completely coherent and valid point is beyond me, but here we are.

...oh, I see.  I guess you took what I intended to be a (mostly) poking fun statement at the Star Wars community as serious.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I was referring to the phenomenon of Star Wars fans despising and their own fandom and the folks who produce content for it pretty much no matter what happens, not any sort of consumer arrangement.  God, the TOR boards.  Crazy mofos 

[Tiax Rules All]

This thread is viscious. I am agaist the way some dlc is handled but some people need to take the Bioware hate down a notch. For real.

[mopotter]

bobobo878 wrote...

mopotter wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
I can't speak for Big Blue Car, but I feel entitled because I'm paying full price.  When I buy a car, I don't expect to have to pay extra for the passenger seat.

But you do pay if you want leather sits and air conditioning, right? I don't think comparing a bonus (and probably optional even if you have the dlc) to a car seat is fair.

you also pay if you want cruise control, and you pay different amounts if you want stick or automatic.  I agree, not the same thing.   edit spelling. 

The metaphor may not fit perfectly now, but Bioware is steadily pushing the envelope of what they consider acceptable to scalp.  Some day, they might require us to pay extra or preorder to get features comparable to brakes.

I'm sorry, you made me laugh.   I suddenly had visions of Fred Flinstone and his feet breaks.

[NKKKK]

JohnEpler wrote...

A bunch of stuff

Then show us, surely you can find a way to proove to us that this content would be cut if it wasn't for DLC. But if rules prevent you, then sorry I can't believe you.


I'd be happy if you just told us the truth, that this is a way to prevent piracy.

Modifié par NKKKK, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:22 .

[Wicked 702]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Yes, that is correct. But you invoked the all powerful "be grateful for what you have" statement of epic fail. Why you did that and then turned around and made a completely coherent and valid point is beyond me, but here we are.

...oh, I see.  I guess you took what I intended to be a (mostly) poking fun statement at the Star Wars community as serious.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I was referring to the phenomenon of Star Wars fans despising and their own fandom and the folks who produce content for it pretty much no matter what happens, not any sort of consumer arrangement.  God, the TOR boards.  Crazy mofos 

My mistake then. I apologize.

[John Epler]

NKKKK wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

A bunch of stuff

Then show us, surely you can find a way to proove to us that this content would be cut if it wasn't for DLC. But if rules prevent you, then sorry I can't believe you.


I'd be happy if you just told us the truth, that this is a way to prevent piracy.

At this point, I'm fairly certain that if a booming, disembodied voice spoke to you in your sleep and said 'NKKK - THE BIOWARE GUY IS TOTALLY TELLING THE TRUTH. I CAN SEE THE HEARTS OF MORTAL MAN. ALSO, HE'S A HECK OF A SNAPPY DRESSER', you wouldn't be content. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tiax Rules All]

NKKKK, most of your posts here and in other threads are just trash. Your troll avatar is pretty fitting. I've been given temp bans for saying things that were way less harsh and made more sense.

I'd wish it apon you but I have a feeling that you would take that as some "the mans trying to silence me" BS.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Zhijn]

I have no idea what all the fuss is about, it just a free preorder exclusive at the moment. Like a thousand of other games befor it.

Not like you cant get the character on release. That i have no doubt about.

Yup i dont get it!. Is it because you "all" on a teen budget or something?. =(

Modifié par Zhijn, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Big Blue Car]

JohnEpler wrote...
Lots of stuff that makes sense

I understand that you are part of an industry and that everything is more complicated than it appears, and thanks for shedding some light on the process for us. But consumer opinion matters and it's good that we are discussing our concerns.

Edit Zhijin, you try saving for med school! You'll start to appreciate saving the pennies! Also implying that someones opinions are invalid because they earn less money than you is deplorable fyi

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:29 .

[Stanley Woo]

NKKKK wrote...
Then show us, surely you can find a way to proove to us that this content would be cut if it wasn't for DLC. But if rules prevent you, then sorry I can't believe you.

We've told you explicitly. You've seen a lack of DLC in some of our previous games where we might have offered something extra. And we've released Shale in that fashion. As I said before, at some point you've either got to believe that we're telling the truth, or accept that we're lying and quit asking us for information.

I'd be happy if you just told us the truth, that this is a way to prevent piracy.

It doesn't prevent piracy, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Day 1 DLC provides a bonus for those who buy the game first-hand. And that's not a secret. We've said it many times over the last couple of years.

[Evindale]

Yaarrrr It never be preventin us me heartie. *gets grog and insult sword fights.*



It's just a free little gimmick that people are getting over zealous about. I've never personally cared about DLC. I pay for little bits and bobs now and then. If I want to go to the pizza shop, I might pay for an additional topping. Sure it could originally be on the pizza, but it isn't. But I dunno, it's getting late and I'm tired. My uni work won't do itself sadly.

[John Epler]

Big Blue Car wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
Lots of stuff that makes sense

I understand that you are part of an industry and that everything is more complicated than it appears, and thanks for shedding some light on the process for us But consumer opinion matters and it's good that we are discussing our concerns.

Definitely! I'm being serious when I say that part of the blame is on the industry as a whole. We're never very transparent about how game development works - before I started working here, I had no idea how long a game was actually complete before it got released. Certification process, content lockdown - didn't mean anything to me. And I'm not sure how I'd feel about PRC if I hadn't been in the industry when the practice started becoming more common.

Anything I can do to shed a little more light on the situation, I'm more than happy to do so. I completely understand people who are concerned - if you're unaware of the time and resource factors involved, it can look a little strange. But it really isn't a matter of just stripping content out of the game and selling it to people after the fact. If it were, I'd probably be a lot less busy

[Evindale]

John, I might have to pester you while do my Game Production project at uni. ^_-

Modifié par Evindale, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:33 .

[NKKKK]

'NKKK - THE BIOWARE GUY IS TOTALLY TELLING THE TRUTH. I CAN SEE THE HEARTS OF MORTAL MAN. ALSO, HE'S A HECK OF A SNAPPY DRESSER

Hey graider what are you doing on my roof with a microhpone...wait a minute? John, your a nice a guy, but I just can't believe. It shouldn't matter anyways, I'm still probably going to pre-order, being the long time fan I am. And this really isn't an unreasonable thing, the pre order edition, I just don't like the manipulation. And I'd totally beleive your a snappy dresser.

NKKKK, most of your posts here and in other threads are just trash. Your troll avatar is pretty fitting. I've been given temp bans for saying things that were way less harsh and made more sense.

I'd wish it apon you but I have a feeling that you would take that as some "the mans trying to silence me" BS.

It's an ork, not a troll. Get your facts straight. Thank you

Modifié par NKKKK, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:38 .

[falconlord5]

JohnEpler wrote...

As I've posted before - I think part of the fault lies in the fact that most people aren't really aware of the timeline required for game development. There's a good chunk of time at the end where the content that goes on-disc cannot be touched because the game is in certification - that is, getting various companies (usually the console manufacturers and our own publisher) to approve our game for release.

That's generally when early-release DLC is made. Sure, some work is done on it beforehand - but we're talking a bare minimum to make sure that it will, eventually, work with the main game, and to give those whose work has to be done much earlier than everyone else's something to do (usually, the pipeline goes - writers write the dialogue, they finish up with it and hand it to Cine Design, who does the cinematic design work, which then goes to Audio who adds Foley and the like). Not to mention there's a separate budget and timeline specific to DLC - if that content isn't made as DLC, it's not getting in the game. Period.

Of course, I've explained this before and been told I'm a liar and a shill. I prefer plant - it makes me feel more like I'm in a magic show!

Anybody who's got Blackadder in their sig is telling the truth.

[AtreiyaN7]

Big Blue Car wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Oh, yay, this again. I suppose you missed the ten million other threads where people argued over pre-ordering and the SE upgrade. You make it sound like people will be chained to this pre-order and forced to buy it, but hello, THERE'S PLENTY OF TIME TO CANCEL OUT as information is released closer to launch if there are actual warning signs of potential suckiness (rather than some inane theory like yours).

As for those of us who either like what we've seen thus far and/or who are confident that the game will turn out well, it's a non-issue. However, good luck with your one-man boycott. Enjoy not playing the game thanks to your belief that BW is doing this because they think their product sucks. Yeah, real convincing argument you had there...

Preorders affect how many copies stores order you muppet, so they do affect direct sales, and the preorder codes are inside the box so even if a person does cancel their preorder, they will still be penalised for doing so by missing out on a character. If you still can't grasp the legitimate issues with this plan and the concerns it raises for consumers and independent retailers then reread the OP.

And I never said the word boycott, Bioware are my favourite developers and I wish them every success. But ****ty practise is ****ty practise regardless of who does it.

Big Blue Car wrote...

But a character for preordering is different. Bioware are requiring people to make the jump and order the game before it is reviewed and before consumers can make an informed decision. It reeks of poor confidence in their product and shows they are perfectly comfortable manipulating people to get sales beyond the product deserves. And even if the character becomes DLC later it still shows that they view DLC as a way to nickel and dime players rather than a legitimate method to add expansions to the games over time.

That's what you wrote. As I said, this is a completely inane theory on your part with zero basis in fact. If you want to spout that sort of thing, be my guest. As for you saying that you're not boycotting them, according to your OP (and I hardly need to reread it), you said that you'd wait for a pre-owned version, and that effectively IS boycotting the company. BW isn't making money of that used copy you're waiting for - Gamestop or whoever you get it from on eBay is, but go right ahead and show your great support and love for the devs that way. I'm sure it will help them to stay in business.

The problem is that you believe it's all some sort of conspiracy/scheme to grab people's money, whereas I'm fairly certain that most sensible people probably don't view it as some form of extreme manipulation (regardless of their actual opinion on the direction of the game). Feel free to keep hurling childish insults like "muppet" around though - I'm sure it really helps in trying to make your case in a civil and/or logical manner...oh wait, it doesn't! *sarcasm*

Furthermore, the devs have previously described how they handle the DLC. If you choose not to believe what they say (when they've talked about it countless times at this point), well, then I can only assume that you believe that they're equivocating about it and that nothing they do or say is ever going to change your mind (or that of anyone else who's into the whole conspiracy theory thing).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:44 .

[PoisonTheCity]

Dark_Raven_NL wrote...

DA2 stil can't be pre ordered here in the nethrlands so far i know.
so i think at least you have this option.
we here in the netherlands are stil waiting for options like this.
because i would pre order this game right away HUGE DRAGON AGE FAN HERE.
i am still pissed off because i missed the special staff weapon code.

so please bioware think of your fans in the small country called the NETHERLANDS (holland).

Heh, try being from South Africa

On topic, I agree with what Sandtigress said a few posts back. Getting extra content with a pre-order is like a 'thank you' for trusting the devs, and BioWare certainly isn't the only company to offer things like this. I could understand people getting this worked up if not getting the extra content hindered the game experience somehow, but it won't. You can still have an excellent gaming experience without it; I must have had five playthroughs of DAO before I got any of the DLC, even Shale, and I still enjoyed the game immensely.

I guess to me it seems a little redundant to bash a company for offering premium content for a game that adds to the vanilla game, when that vanilla game still plays perfectly without it. Besides, I'm preeetty sure that there are more thoughts that go into the process of  deciding which content will be available as DLC than "Okay, this quest/companion isn't needed for the game, so rip it out and sell it for extra". There's a whole lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that we aren't privy to. And while not being privy to that process may invite some assumptions, it seems strange that the automatic assumption these days seems to go along the lines of, well, this thread.

Modifié par PoisonTheCity, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:52 .

[Norskatt]

JohnEpler wrote...

At this point, I'm fairly certain that if a booming, disembodied voice spoke to you in your sleep and said 'NKKK - THE BIOWARE GUY IS TOTALLY TELLING THE TRUTH. I CAN SEE THE HEARTS OF MORTAL MAN. ALSO, HE'S A HECK OF A SNAPPY DRESSER', you wouldn't be content. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Norskatt Approves +100  

[NKKKK]

Hey at least you're not going down the line of Fallout Broken Steel...yet.

Modifié par NKKKK, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:44 .

[AlanC9]

Big Blue Car wrote...
But the additions Bioware largely are making aren't like that, quality arguments aside they are using additional content as a peripheral to the main game, developed alongside it to encourage consumers to make potentially  bad choices about the product they buy ie order before you are informed or you miss out. The ethics of that behaviour aside, it means that when we go to a shop and buy your game, because now we know it's good, we are aware that parts of it have been arbitrarily cut off for us because they were part of a marketing strategy. For me at least that that makes me feel manipulated and it's the reason I won't be buying Dragon Age 2 at launch.

Sorry if I haven't communicated my argument properly here, it's a difficult issue to describe but it does matter.

You're still simply assuming that parts of the game are being arbitrarily cut out. You have no reason to assume this, since you're obviously aware that Bio has always been planning to have DLC.

It's not that you're failing to communicate -- it's that your argument is weak.

[mopotter]

Shiakazee wrote...

 What do mean? Im pretty sure its my hand that feeds them, so they better shape up

This is so funny.    This is one of my favorite arguments for everything.  I've heard students say it when they don't like the grade they got in a class they only attend part of the time.  I'm paying your salary - I deserve an A.  I deserve to be personally called and informed that advising week starts next Monday.  I pay your salary.....  And at the bank I worked at - I pay your salary what do you mean your closing because there is 10' of snow out.  I want to come in and deposit my social security check.    The only thing that phase gets you is a polite I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

And as I've said before, I certainly like the idea of a character instead of a coin, but it really doesn't affect whether or not I'm going to pre-order a game.  I pre-ordered Fable 3 I didn't pre-order Fallout Las Vegas, I'm going to be playing both of these games.