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[Maria Caliban]

Gaaaah! Stop talking about that movie!



Look at this. It's Lady Hawke and Isabela.



Look! It's Isabela in that strange pose they sometimes put her in. What's up with that?



Isabela looks far too pleased.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 mai 2011 - 01:11 .

[mesmerizedish]

I like that Lady Hawke/Isabela a lot!

[mesmerizedish]

Who's that opposite Fenris? Is that supposed to be Zevran? Or the artist's Warden?

[Maria Caliban]

That's Fenris and Zevran. At first you think, 'Oh, they're angry facing at each other for her!' and then you realize, 'Oh, Fenris is angry face and Zevran is undressing Fenris with his eyes.'

[mesmerizedish]

Haha... gotta love Zevran, even if you don't love Zevran.

I always had Leliana with me, so I never used Zevran. But I always regretted that fact!

[hoorayforicecream]

Mmm, bag of limbs. I do love his work. Here's another one of his I really liked:



For that third pic, the angles are a bit weird but I am totally imagining Isabela making Zev and Fenris kiss at knifepoint.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 01 mai 2011 - 01:40 .

[mesmerizedish]

That's a good one too, hoorayforicecream!

[TheBlackBaron]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Gaaaah! Stop talking about that movie!

Nice. 

[Blansten]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Mmm, bag of limbs. I do love his work. Here's another one of his I really liked:



For that third pic, the angles are a bit weird but I am totally imagining Isabela making Zev and Fenris kiss at knifepoint.

That picture is crying out for a story to be written about it ... it also wants oral sex

[Blansten]

Maria Caliban wrote...



Look at this. It's Lady Hawke and Isabela.

 

I love this one, not only is it hot but that is my Hawke's favorite outfit and what she will wear on the ship when they sail away and have oral sex.


(oral sex is better than Brillo Pads:wizard:)

[hoorayforicecream]

Blansten wrote...

That picture is crying out for a story to be written about it ... it also wants oral sex

Are you hinting or just musing? Also... bringing up brillo pads while discussing cunning linguistics? Really? Tres gauche. <_<

[Blansten]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Blansten wrote...

That picture is crying out for a story to be written about it ... it also wants oral sex

Are you hinting or just musing? Also... bringing up brillo pads while discussing cunning linguistics? Really? Tres gauche. <_<

Oh it was most definately a hint, pleading hint even. Tres gauche pretty much sums it up, sadly it is my curse

[hoorayforicecream]

As something of a departure from my usual forum fare, a bit of a more serious post.

Do you think that Isabela was written with a little too much focus on her sexuality? I understand that it's a large part of her character. Anyone here can tell I'm a huge fan of Isabela. But what bothers me is the general perception of her. Here's what I mean.

What do we know about Isabela? She's the pirate queen, scourge of two coasts, and the "sharpest blade in Llomeryn". She grew up in Rivain and spent many years in Antiva. She was the captain of a ship and is a general scoundrel, rogue and pirate. She was introduced to us in DA:O as a master of the Duelist specialization, who learned a way to fight toe to toe against soldiers with quickness and wit instead of strength. She's so good at it that it's an actual specialization that she alone teaches.

So why is it that the general attitude on the forum and recognition of Isabela isn't for her legacy as a duelist and pirate? People don't remember her for being an awesome pirate, or a scoundrel with a heart of gold. They remember her because of the sex. She's free about sex. Who she has it with, how often she has it, and the consequences of her lifestyle are all heavily emphasized, and that's perfectly fine with me. However, what bothers me is how that aspect of her character comes to dominate all aspects of perception.

The general feeling of folks (who don't particularly like her or are ambivalent) that I've seen is "she's a dirty, ****ty ho-bag". I've come across many, many folks who assume that her first reaction to dealing with people is to spread the legs to get her way. These are not behaviors I expect from the sharpest blade in Llomeryn. This is not the sort of thing I expect from somebody who captains a ship, or regularly works with the Raiders of the Waking Sea. She's a remarkably competent, confident individual. But it is an incredibly common and pervasive view of her character. So I ask... do you think they emphasized her sexuality too much? Would she still be as awesome if they showed more dueling and piracy, and less sexually-charged dialogue?

[Prince of Kemet]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

As something of a departure from my usual forum fare, a bit of a more serious post.

Do you think that Isabela was written with a little too much focus on her sexuality? I understand that it's a large part of her character. Anyone here can tell I'm a huge fan of Isabela. But what bothers me is the general perception of her. Here's what I mean.

What do we know about Isabela? She's the pirate queen, scourge of two coasts, and the "sharpest blade in Llomeryn". She grew up in Rivain and spent many years in Antiva. She was the captain of a ship and is a general scoundrel, rogue and pirate. She was introduced to us in DA:O as a master of the Duelist specialization, who learned a way to fight toe to toe against soldiers with quickness and wit instead of strength. She's so good at it that it's an actual specialization that she alone teaches.

So why is it that the general attitude on the forum and recognition of Isabela isn't for her legacy as a duelist and pirate? People don't remember her for being an awesome pirate, or a scoundrel with a heart of gold. They remember her because of the sex. She's free about sex. Who she has it with, how often she has it, and the consequences of her lifestyle are all heavily emphasized, and that's perfectly fine with me. However, what bothers me is how that aspect of her character comes to dominate all aspects of perception.

The general feeling of folks (who don't particularly like her or are ambivalent) that I've seen is "she's a dirty, ****ty ho-bag". I've come across many, many folks who assume that her first reaction to dealing with people is to spread the legs to get her way. These are not behaviors I expect from the sharpest blade in Llomeryn. This is not the sort of thing I expect from somebody who captains a ship, or regularly works with the Raiders of the Waking Sea. She's a remarkably competent, confident individual. But it is an incredibly common and pervasive view of her character. So I ask... do you think they emphasized her sexuality too much? Would she still be as awesome if they showed more dueling and piracy, and less sexually-charged dialogue?

What about Jack and her.....sex and drugs to find a better place........what about skankranda and her....searching online dating sites and meeting strange men on Omega just to have sex. I'm saying that if people consider Izzy a wh***, the same can be said for Jack and Miranda......and Samara before she became a justicar. 

[TobiTobsen]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

As something of a departure from my usual forum fare, a bit of a more serious post.

Do you think that Isabela was written with a little too much focus on her sexuality? I understand that it's a large part of her character. Anyone here can tell I'm a huge fan of Isabela. But what bothers me is the general perception of her. Here's what I mean.

What do we know about Isabela? She's the pirate queen, scourge of two coasts, and the "sharpest blade in Llomeryn". She grew up in Rivain and spent many years in Antiva. She was the captain of a ship and is a general scoundrel, rogue and pirate. She was introduced to us in DA:O as a master of the Duelist specialization, who learned a way to fight toe to toe against soldiers with quickness and wit instead of strength. She's so good at it that it's an actual specialization that she alone teaches.

So why is it that the general attitude on the forum and recognition of Isabela isn't for her legacy as a duelist and pirate? People don't remember her for being an awesome pirate, or a scoundrel with a heart of gold. They remember her because of the sex. She's free about sex. Who she has it with, how often she has it, and the consequences of her lifestyle are all heavily emphasized, and that's perfectly fine with me. However, what bothers me is how that aspect of her character comes to dominate all aspects of perception.

The general feeling of folks (who don't particularly like her or are ambivalent) that I've seen is "she's a dirty, ****ty ho-bag". I've come across many, many folks who assume that her first reaction to dealing with people is to spread the legs to get her way. These are not behaviors I expect from the sharpest blade in Llomeryn. This is not the sort of thing I expect from somebody who captains a ship, or regularly works with the Raiders of the Waking Sea. She's a remarkably competent, confident individual. But it is an incredibly common and pervasive view of her character. So I ask... do you think they emphasized her sexuality too much? Would she still be as awesome if they showed more dueling and piracy, and less sexually-charged dialogue?

I think she would still be awesome.
She somehow reminds me of my ME girl Ash. Make one remark that doesn't fit with the majority or mention something too often and people will start to hate you over that. Carver isn't that wrong when he tells Isabela that all she talks about is sex. If you don't look under that layer of sexual innuendo Isabela just stays pretty "shallow". That's the fault most of the haters make, if you ask me. They just get to hear "sex this, sex that" and run, as the icing on the cake, into the whole STD scene with Anders and just don't bother with her any longer, because they are disgusted or annoyed or whatever.

And I just asked myself: Where do we get all the informations about her career as a pirate? She isn't talking much about that if I remember correctly. She told us in DAO that she is "Queen of the Eastern Seas and the sharpest blade in Llomerryn" . But beside that? Most of the infos are from her introduction page for Dragon Age 2 or the codex, aren't they? A little bit more ingame talk about that wouldn't have been such a bad idea, in my opinion.

[Zandilar]

I think Isabela deliberately cultivates that view of herself. It's both a shield, and an illusion. It makes people underestimate her, and it allows her to hide her true feelings from the world. So the short answer, is no. I don't think they over emphasized her sexuality. I think they got it just right.

I think the problem is, we all have our own real world baggage regarding sex and sexuality. We try to apply Earth values to Thedas, values that are heavily shaded (for most of us in the West) by Judeo-Christian upbringings, whether or not we're practicing Jews/Muslims/Christians*. Sadly, this forum and thread are not the places to go into that in any depth without getting this thread locked. I've also run into this problem (the perception that sexuality is over emphasized, in a world where it's treated differently than in our own) when talking about certain major NPCs in the Forgotten Realms - most of the Seven Sisters (and even some other Chosen of Mystra), for example.

* And no matter how much the worship of the Maker and Andraste might resemble modern Christanity, it is not the same religion, and does not preach the same values. (For example, homosexuality is accepted/tollerated in Thedas, unless you need to breed for some reason, and even then it's viewed as a quirk rather than a serious character flaw/sin.)

Modifié par Zandilar, 01 mai 2011 - 07:52 .

[2taxidermy51]

Zandilar wrote...

I think Isabela deliberately cultivates that view of herself. It's both a shield, and an illusion. It makes people underestimate her, and it allows her to hide her true feelings from the world.

I agree. She doesn't show all her cards and therefore keeps the upper hand in most encounters because others will underestimate her. There is a lot more to Isabela I think than what she lets people see. In speaking to Merrill she even says she's had less lovers than people think and does have standards of some sort.

Even if she was more "piratey" I certainly would enjoy her character. Her banter may not be as funny but I'm sure she would be just as endearing. I love the VA they got for her and am willing to look past the superficial to what's underneath.

Having played the game at least 10x so far and its so hard to pick another LI other than Isabela cause I enjoy her character to much.

[Master Shiori]

Maria Caliban wrote...







Look at this. It's Lady Hawke and Isabela.

Love that one. 

Maria Caliban wrote...




Look! It's Isabela in that strange pose they sometimes put her in. What's up with that?

That's the pose she asumes at the bar after her fight with Lucky and his goons, right before the cutscene ends.

Maria Caliban wrote...




Isabela looks far too pleased.

Heh, as if she'd need to force men at knifepoint to kiss her. 

[Zandilar]

Master Shiori wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...




Isabela looks far too pleased.

Heh, as if she'd need to force men at knifepoint to kiss her. 

I don't think they're kissing her. I might be seeing things, but it kind of looks like she's trying to get them to kiss each other...

[whykikyouwhy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

As something of a departure from my usual forum fare, a bit of a more serious post.

Do you think that Isabela was written with a little too much focus on her sexuality? I understand that it's a large part of her character. Anyone here can tell I'm a huge fan of Isabela. But what bothers me is the general perception of her. Here's what I mean.

What do we know about Isabela? She's the pirate queen, scourge of two coasts, and the "sharpest blade in Llomeryn". She grew up in Rivain and spent many years in Antiva. She was the captain of a ship and is a general scoundrel, rogue and pirate. She was introduced to us in DA:O as a master of the Duelist specialization, who learned a way to fight toe to toe against soldiers with quickness and wit instead of strength. She's so good at it that it's an actual specialization that she alone teaches.

So why is it that the general attitude on the forum and recognition of Isabela isn't for her legacy as a duelist and pirate? People don't remember her for being an awesome pirate, or a scoundrel with a heart of gold. They remember her because of the sex. She's free about sex. Who she has it with, how often she has it, and the consequences of her lifestyle are all heavily emphasized, and that's perfectly fine with me. However, what bothers me is how that aspect of her character comes to dominate all aspects of perception.

The general feeling of folks (who don't particularly like her or are ambivalent) that I've seen is "she's a dirty, ****ty ho-bag". I've come across many, many folks who assume that her first reaction to dealing with people is to spread the legs to get her way. These are not behaviors I expect from the sharpest blade in Llomeryn. This is not the sort of thing I expect from somebody who captains a ship, or regularly works with the Raiders of the Waking Sea. She's a remarkably competent, confident individual. But it is an incredibly common and pervasive view of her character. So I ask... do you think they emphasized her sexuality too much? Would she still be as awesome if they showed more dueling and piracy, and less sexually-charged dialogue?

Going to throw my 2 cents into this because it's something I feel strongly about. Although several folks have already made very valid & articulate points, so I may quite late to the game.

I don't think that, as far as writing and character development, Isabela was overly sexualized. Breaking down the things that may have inadvertantly defined her as such:

- Her banter leans toward innuendo, or blatant discussion of sexual matters. This does not a w**** make. I would wager that most people have the random dirty thought or play on words run through their heads, but decorum, reserve or what have you, prevents them from uttering it. But sex is a very human act. Most people engage in it or think about it, or have thought about it at one time or another. Talking about it, and having a woman talk about it, defies some of the age old attitudes about women that society is ever shifting around. Old perceptions dictate that women should be prim, proper - the homemaker, the mother, the caregiver, etc. Seen and not heard. And not that women in Thedas have suffered from being forced to fit into that mold, but Isabela simply doesn't fall in line with that sort of thinking.

- Her physique is rather well-endowed and she fancies clothing that accentuates her positives. Again, this does not a w**** make. But this is something that is still so problematic IRL today. If a woman dresses in a provocative manner, or dresses to show off a beautiful body, she can easily be branded a woman of some ill repute, because why would she want to display herself like that unless she is ready to give it up, put out, etc.? Never mind that the attire might be comfortable, breathable, or allow the pirate to leap into the air and stab someone in the back of the head easier than wearing leather armor.

 - She has had several lovers. Nope...not a w****. Back to old perceptions. In many societies, women are to be kept chaste or to save their bodies for their husbands, whereas men are encouraged to sample as many wares as possible. Isabela owns her sexuality. She tells Aveline "they don't know me. I know me." And no truer statement sums up who she is. Also, when Merrill asks her about her copious amount of paramors, Isabela says something like "not as many as you would think" (sorry that I don't have the exact quote) .She makes no apologies for liking sex, or for not attaching emotion to it. This is, historically (again, maybe not in Thedas), an attitude connected to men. But in reality, there shouldn't be anything wrong with someone enjoying sex - I mean, shouldn't we? It would really put a damper on things to not enjoy it. And why or when a person does/does not bring emotion into the act...well, that's all very subjective. I think she embraces the legend and lore of her love life and/or contracted illnesses because A. It's easier, B. As Zandilar said, it's a defense, and C. It actually benefits her. If her enemies foolishly think that they might be able to easily vanquish her, it's a quick knifeblade to the groin, and she emerges the victor. And possibly, if she lets someone live, her legend will grow even more.

So...to sum up my rambling...I don't think her writing is what sexualizes her. I don't think it's her design either, though it is most pleasing. I think a lot of the anger toward her has to do with hang-ups, with people not being able to shake off old attitudes. Maybe they can't mentally break that mold. It's much easier to label someone from a first impression than to take the time and effort to get to know someone. From what I have read on various threads, most people who follow a friendship and/or romance path with Isabela are quite pleasantly surprised by how much they like her, how much she had evolved. The complaints and the mud-slinging probably have alot to do with that first impression and the unwillingness to take game time into following her path. 

Isabela is, from codex and other things mentioned within the game, a powerful adversary, and a scourge on the seas - she's a little bit Gayle Malvern, and she's a little bit Han Solo and Robin Hood. But...she is a woman, and therefore I think she more easily falls victim to ire because she is not what/who we are taught women should be, if only sometimes subconsciously. She is defiance, incarante. And wonderously so.

[Blansten]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

As something of a departure from my usual forum fare, a bit of a more serious post.

Do you think that Isabela was written with a little too much focus on her sexuality? I understand that it's a large part of her character. Anyone here can tell I'm a huge fan of Isabela. But what bothers me is the general perception of her. Here's what I mean.

What do we know about Isabela? She's the pirate queen, scourge of two coasts, and the "sharpest blade in Llomeryn". She grew up in Rivain and spent many years in Antiva. She was the captain of a ship and is a general scoundrel, rogue and pirate. She was introduced to us in DA:O as a master of the Duelist specialization, who learned a way to fight toe to toe against soldiers with quickness and wit instead of strength. She's so good at it that it's an actual specialization that she alone teaches.

So why is it that the general attitude on the forum and recognition of Isabela isn't for her legacy as a duelist and pirate? People don't remember her for being an awesome pirate, or a scoundrel with a heart of gold. They remember her because of the sex. She's free about sex. Who she has it with, how often she has it, and the consequences of her lifestyle are all heavily emphasized, and that's perfectly fine with me. However, what bothers me is how that aspect of her character comes to dominate all aspects of perception.

The general feeling of folks (who don't particularly like her or are ambivalent) that I've seen is "she's a dirty, ****ty ho-bag". I've come across many, many folks who assume that her first reaction to dealing with people is to spread the legs to get her way. These are not behaviors I expect from the sharpest blade in Llomeryn. This is not the sort of thing I expect from somebody who captains a ship, or regularly works with the Raiders of the Waking Sea. She's a remarkably competent, confident individual. But it is an incredibly common and pervasive view of her character. So I ask... do you think they emphasized her sexuality too much? Would she still be as awesome if they showed more dueling and piracy, and less sexually-charged dialogue?

I think the game writers did a commendable job of writing a strong independent woman who owns her sexuality vs. a sexbot with large breasts. The problem is not with the creators but with the individual players who project their own insecurities and sexual hangups on the character (Isabela is not alone in that camp). I have wondered if it is the sexuality that bothers people most or the confidence and refusal to conform to stereotypical behaviors ... most likely a combination of both. The only scene I wish the writers had left out was the Anders clinic scene, although funny too many people have taken it out of context and use it as proof of her "dirtyness".

By Act 3 Isabela makes her political views known and I really liked her balanced perpective and how she refused to be pushed to either extreme. She is the voice of reason between Anders and Fenris and as quoted her "They don't know me, I know me" line is probably the best in the game. She remains awesome throughout the game no matter what subject she is talking about.

[axl99]

The clinic scene is actually sort of kind of random. You either see the seneschal or Isabela talking to Anders. And if you've talked to Fenris earlier, you'll figure out that she bedded the seneschal to keep him from investigating Fenris' illegal acquisition of a Hightown mansion.

The fact of the matter is that people missed or purposely ignored seeing Isabela helping out a friend in need.

As for that comment Prince of Kemet made about Jack and Miranda. Jack uses sex as a defense mechanism as a conditioned response to use against those who would manipulate her, while Miranda's just really looking to get pregnant despite the fact she's physically incapable of conceiving.

[TobiTobsen]

axl99 wrote...

The clinic scene is actually sort of kind of random. You either see the seneschal or Isabela talking to Anders. And if you've talked to Fenris earlier, you'll figure out that she bedded the seneschal to keep him from investigating Fenris' illegal acquisition of a Hightown mansion.

The fact of the matter is that people missed or purposely ignored seeing Isabela helping out a friend in need.

It's probably better that way. I don't think that the haters would describe it as helping out a friend.