6837 réponses à ce sujet

[Blansten]

jlb524 wrote...

The only thing I can think of is that Aveline knew the law failed with Kelder and that it would protect him (via the Magistrate)...so in that case she supports undermining it.

With Castillon, the law wouldn't support him at all and if he was brought to justice he would feel it....there would be no corruption to protect him.  The law would 'work' properly as it should.

That makes sense.

[mesmerizedish]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

But even in modern society, there are prejudices against mental illness.

I don't recall evidence of the existence of mental illness in Kirkwall, or the acknowledgement of it. I figured the citizens regarded such things much in the way they did in our own history, and even in biblical-type accounts - an illness or condition was likened to demons, demonic possession, spirits, etc. Therefore something evil and vile. Therefore something that must be cured, if possible, or outright destroyed.

So, if that is the case, and there are no such hospitals to treat what would should be considered an illness, isn't it feasible for Aveline, or anyone, to make that correlation to demonic possession?

No. It's feasible for people to think that initially, but then the mages say "He's not possessed, he's just mad."

Demons and mental illness are clearly separately considered topics, even in Thedas. And they don't have hospitals, and the solution seems to be putting them down instead of treating them, but they fully understand that it's not magic.

Blansten wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The only thing I can think of is that Aveline knew the law failed with Kelder and that it would protect him (via the Magistrate)...so in that case she supports undermining it.

With Castillon, the law wouldn't support him at all and if he was brought to justice he would feel it....there would be no corruption to protect him.  The law would 'work' properly as it should.

That makes sense.

Except that Aveline's getting promoted to Guard-Captain. She's buddies with the Seneschal and the Viscount now. She has a lot more clout than a judge.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 01 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[jlb524]

So, lets discuss Isabela's different reactions to Kelder vs. Castillon.

Isabela wants Hawke to take the law into her hands and off Kelder but is initially against the idea with Castillon...why is that?

I think that with Castillon, she has an obvious selfish gain from letting him go and acquiring her ship. However, what's telling is that it's pretty easy to convince her that killing Castillon was for the best...even on the friendship path. I say it's just Isabela being impulsive and self-centered, though she's capable of seeing the 'right' side when shown and isn't a complete 'me first' character....which is what I love about her.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Except that Aveline's getting promoted to Guard-Captain. She's buddies with the Seneschal and the Viscount now. She has a lot more clout than a judge.

But doesn't that support the point even more?  She has more clout in year 7 and in more faith in the laws of Kirkwall.

Modifié par jlb524, 01 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[mesmerizedish]

jlb524 wrote...

So, lets discuss Isabela's different reactions to Kelder vs. Castillon.

Isabela wants Hawke to take the law into her hands and off Kelder but is initially against the idea with Castillon...why is that?

I think that with Castillon, she has an obvious selfish gain from letting him go and acquiring her ship. However, what's telling is that it's pretty easy to convince her that killing Castillon was for the best...even on the friendship path. I say it's just Isabela being impulsive and self-centered, though she's capable of seeing the 'right' side when shown and isn't a complete 'me first' character....which is what I love about her.

I think it's because she doesn't have a personal interest in Keller's fate. She sees "awful murderer/possible child rapist," and wants it dead. And she's just met a victim and talked to said victim's father right outside. Whereas Castillon's crimes are much further removed from her, and she gets a ship out of it.

[whykikyouwhy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

No. It's feasible for people to think that initially, but then the mages say "He's not possessed, he's just mad."

Demons and mental illness are clearly separately considered topics, even in Thedas. And they don't have hospitals, and the solution seems to be putting them down instead of treating them, but they fully understand that it's not magic.

I really don't have an explanation, and I don't feel strongly enough about how Aveline may feel on the matter to defend it. We don't see/hear much of her opinion on specifics, at least that I can recall (and that's probably not much - I'm old, remember ). We know that she respects honesty, authority, and the law. But...by that token, a person can believe that their vision of the law is true law/justice, and therefore taint the actual values. People in law enforcement do it all the time - the badge and gun (or in Aveline's case, the sword and sheild) become symbolic of infallibility. And those carrying them act according to their own sense of order, fully confident that because they are in their position, they can carry it out and it will be just and right and correct.

Except that Aveline's getting promoted to Guard-Captain. She's buddies with the Seneschal and the Viscount now. She has a lot more clout than a judge.

Doesn't she say in a few conversations that she doesn't have a lot of sway? That in certain areas, the guard isn't respected? She is uncertain of her standing when that quest comes up, if I recall. And she is still technically a 'foreigner' in Kirkwall.

[jlb524]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I think it's because she doesn't have a personal interest in Keller's fate. She sees "awful murderer/possible child rapist," and wants it dead. And she's just met a victim and talked to said victim's father right outside. Whereas Castillon's crimes are much further removed from her, and she gets a ship out of it.

I don't know...she's the one that released a boat load of Castillon's slaves and thumbed her nose up at him.

She could have benefitted from that deal as well.

But I agree that it's easier for Isabela to be concerned with matters that are closer to her heart, and she won't go all idealistic and undermine something like slavery unless she's witnessing it first hand.

[Blansten]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Blansten wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The only thing I can think of is that Aveline knew the law failed with Kelder and that it would protect him (via the Magistrate)...so in that case she supports undermining it.

With Castillon, the law wouldn't support him at all and if he was brought to justice he would feel it....there would be no corruption to protect him.  The law would 'work' properly as it should.

That makes sense.

Except that Aveline's getting promoted to Guard-Captain. She's buddies with the Seneschal and the Viscount now. She has a lot more clout than a judge.

Hawke is the one who has the relationship with the Seneschal and Viscount. There is nothing in game to indicate that Aveline has more clout than the magistrate, unless I missed it which is very possible.

[Mr.House]

Castilon is more personal, plus as she said, how would anyone know how she bested him if he's dead. She wanted him humiliated. It's less of justice there and wanting to humiliate this person she has worked with a lot in the past.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...

Castilon is more personal, plus as she said, how would anyone know how she bested him if he's dead. She wanted him humiliated. It's less of justice there and wanting to humiliate this person she has worked with a lot in the past.

Still, it's relatively easy to convince her to give that up...which speaks to some 'under the surface' values that Isabela doesn't show often.

[mesmerizedish]

Blansten wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Blansten wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The only thing I can think of is that Aveline knew the law failed with Kelder and that it would protect him (via the Magistrate)...so in that case she supports undermining it.

With Castillon, the law wouldn't support him at all and if he was brought to justice he would feel it....there would be no corruption to protect him.  The law would 'work' properly as it should.

That makes sense.

Except that Aveline's getting promoted to Guard-Captain. She's buddies with the Seneschal and the Viscount now. She has a lot more clout than a judge.

Hawke is the one who has the relationship with the Seneschal and Viscount. There is nothing in game to indicate that Aveline has more clout than the magistrate, unless I missed it which is very possible.

Chief of police vs. district court judge? If I'm the mayor of New York, I know which one I'm going to trust more.

[whykikyouwhy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Chief of police vs. district court judge? If I'm the mayor of New York, I know which one I'm going to trust more.

Ishmael...of course you'd trust yourself. You just watched gay marriage get approved.
Full of trust and win.

[Blansten]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Chief of police vs. district court judge? If I'm the mayor of New York, I know which one I'm going to trust more.

I concede.

[whykikyouwhy]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sometimes it makes me wish she had run off at the end of Act 2. THAT Isabela at least had more backbone, like a real swashbuckler. Well, I'll just settle for giving her the ship instead.

But she does the triumphant Han Solo return. Still with backbone, still bad*ss. But with the twinkling of the heart of gold peeking out.

Besides, having her come back and swagger in with the Tome under her arm has got to be one of the sexiest cutscenes ever.

[jlb524]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

To me that part is OOC for Isabela. I fully expected her to rage at Hawke for denying her that ship- it's something she's been wanting for years! It's what will make her a real Captain again! IMO Hawke denying Isabela the ship is as bad as holding the Arulin'Holm from Merrill. Merrill has the expected response, but Isabela is like "well alright if you say so".

I don't agree.  I think the repercussions of letting Castillon go are pretty obvious (slaver allowed to live and go on to do more enslaving of innocents) and Isabela can be conviced...we know she does care for slaves (she let the whole boat load of them go knowing that it could bite her in the ass later).

The reprecussions of withholding the arulin'holm form Merrill are not clear at all.  I don't think that either Hawke or Merrill have enough evidence, at that point, that continuing work on the mirror could lead to something bad regarding the elves.   As Merrill maintains, the clan should be gone or leaving soon anyway.

[jlb524]

I wouldn't call Hardened Leliana 'cutthroat'. Haahaa, I'd say Merrill is more cutthroat.

[hoorayforicecream]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

To me that part is OOC for Isabela. I fully expected her to rage at Hawke for denying her that ship- it's something she's been wanting for years! It's what will make her a real Captain again!

And she does. If you kill Castillon, she immediately goes into an angry rant afterwards. But then later at the Hanged Man, she relents and apologizes because she's had time to think it over, and because she's grown past that. She doesn't apologize if Hawke doesn't reach the 100% mark with her. Once Hawke reaches 100%, it represents Isabela's growth and change has hit a milestone and she's come around.

[jlb524]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Letting Castillon go does not equal supporting slavery. If Isabela is out to hunt slavers, she'd do it much better with a ship than without. Hell she can take that ship, catch up with Castillon, and kill him later if she wish, with Hawke (and possibly Hawke's LI, a deadly killer whichever LI that is) on board to help.

But they don't...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
The whole "give up the ship for the greater good" thing is just Hawke trampling on Isabela's independent personality, nothing more. Hawke can at least excuse withholding the Arulin'Holm by deferring to the (at least supposedly) higher wisdom of Marethari (let's not go into how she's a cruel manipulative witch- that's fanon at most). Hawke denying Isabela the ship is just Hawke being an uptight jerk@ss.

Hawke can at least excuse withholding the ship by deferring to the (at least supposedly) higher wisdom of common morality.

[jlb524]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
I never knew such a thing existed in the DA universe? Moralities in the plural, sure, but common morality?

Most seem to agree that 'slavery is bad and stuff'.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
And just look at Hawke's companions. Everyone except Aveline and Varric. Why would someone not plagued by schizophrenia gather a group of followers like that, and then let morality dictate how she/he treats them?

That would depend on Hawke.