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[whykikyouwhy]

So perhaps for as much as they clash, Isabela is who Aveline wishes she could be (hence, they clash)?

[Wulfram]

Mary Kirby wrote...

No, that's what Luke intended. Aveline is hypocritical when it comes to Isabela. As much as she will fight with her for being irresponsible and selfish, Aveline always wants Isabela to be happy. In Izzy quests, if it will give rivalry to Isabela, it will probably give rivalry to Aveline, too.

That makes sense if we're seeing rivalry as disapproval, but I thought we weren't supposed to?

[hoorayforicecream]

Mary Kirby wrote...

No, that's what Luke intended. Aveline is hypocritical when it comes to Isabela. As much as she will fight with her for being irresponsible and selfish, Aveline always wants Isabela to be happy. In Izzy quests, if it will give rivalry to Isabela, it will probably give rivalry to Aveline, too.

That's actually... kind of awesome. I never noticed that.

[Zjarcal]

Wulfram wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

No, that's what Luke intended. Aveline is hypocritical when it comes to Isabela. As much as she will fight with her for being irresponsible and selfish, Aveline always wants Isabela to be happy. In Izzy quests, if it will give rivalry to Isabela, it will probably give rivalry to Aveline, too.

That makes sense if we're seeing rivalry as disapproval, but I thought we weren't supposed to?

In some cases rivalry can be seen as disapproval. It's just not a "I don't want to talk to you ever again" type of disapproval.

And thanks for posting Mary Kirby! That's certainly an interesting tidbit about Aveline.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 15 septembre 2011 - 08:20 .

[Master Shiori]

Wulfram wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

No, that's what Luke intended. Aveline is hypocritical when it comes to Isabela. As much as she will fight with her for being irresponsible and selfish, Aveline always wants Isabela to be happy. In Izzy quests, if it will give rivalry to Isabela, it will probably give rivalry to Aveline, too.

That makes sense if we're seeing rivalry as disapproval, but I thought we weren't supposed to?

It is disapproval, but the "We'll need to agree to disagree" kind and not "I hate your guts and am gettng out of here".

And thank you Mary fro clearing that one up!

Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 septembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So perhaps for as much as they clash, Isabela is who Aveline wishes she could be (hence, they clash)?

It never struck me that way.

I can imagine Aveline saying, "I'm Aveline Valen, guardsman, and this is my friend, a lying, thieving pirate wh****. If anyone has a problem with her, then they have a problem with me."

Aveline can be a judgmental hard*** but she's also intensely loyal and cares about her friends.

[jlb524]

They seem to clash less later on after becoming closer friends.

[Mr.House]

Aveline: Isabela. That...demonstration you put on two nights ago in the Viscount's Keep.
Isabela: Ooh. Are you going to arrest me, Captain.
Aveline: No. You did that on purpose and I will not be baited.
Isabela: Oh, come on!
Aveline: I will also no longer you for your...choices. I will make a concerted attempt to be understanding.
Isabela: What? Does this mean you'll no longer call me a ****?
Aveline: As you so rightly pointed out, ****s accept gold for services rendered. You do not.
Isabela: But...
Aveline: Poxy tart. (Laughs) Had you there.

[Wulfram]

Zjarcal wrote...

In some cases rivalry can be seen as disapproval. It's just not a "I don't want to talk to you ever again" type of disapproval.

It's sometimes used as disapproval, and that's usually when it screws things up.

Really, Izzy is pretty much an example of the sort of person who attracts rivalry from Aveline.  And in this case if Hawke acts like Izzy would, they get Friendship.  Which is wierd, even if they're doing something that Aveline likes.

If it's an approval/disapproval situation, it should act like the gifts or romances - doing something she likes should move you further down the side you're already going down.

(Of course, I've almost always maxed out Aveline's friendship by this time so it doesn't matter.  But this would have been very annoying the occasion I've rivaled her.  Randomly getting "approval" friendship when you're rivalling someone is the most aggravating thing about this game.)

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

In some cases rivalry can be seen as disapproval. It's just not a "I don't want to talk to you ever again" type of disapproval.

It's sometimes used as disapproval, and that's usually when it screws things up.

Really, Izzy is pretty much an example of the sort of person who attracts rivalry from Aveline.  And in this case if Hawke acts like Izzy would, they get Friendship.  Which is wierd, even if they're doing something that Aveline likes.

If it's an approval/disapproval situation, it should act like the gifts or romances - doing something she likes should move you further down the side you're already going down.

(Of course, I've almost always maxed out Aveline's friendship by this time so it doesn't matter.  But this would have been very annoying the occasion I've rivaled her.  Randomly getting "approval" friendship when you're rivalling someone is the most aggravating thing about this game.)

I can see that, but in this example (once Mary explained the underlying reasoning) it makes perfect sense. Aveline here values Isabela's friendship more than she values law and order... which is perfectly keeping in character. It's the same reason that she and Fenris share a good chuckle during their act 3 banter, where they talk about the slavers Fenris notifed Aveline about. 

[Wulfram]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I can see that, but in this example (once Mary explained the underlying reasoning) it makes perfect sense. Aveline here values Isabela's friendship more than she values law and order... which is perfectly keeping in character. It's the same reason that she and Fenris share a good chuckle during their act 3 banter, where they talk about the slavers Fenris notifed Aveline about. 

So why does she like Rival Hawke less for giving Isabela the ship?

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 septembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[syllogi]

As much as I hate slavers, I'm with Aveline on this one, I irrationally want to give Isabela the ship every time, even if it means letting Castillon go to do bad things another day. I do love her talk afterwards, though, when you do kill Castillon, that was when I really realized that Isabela is the character with the most growth in DA2 (in my humble and biased opinion).

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I can see that, but in this example (once Mary explained the underlying reasoning) it makes perfect sense. Aveline here values Isabela's friendship more than she values law and order... which is perfectly keeping in character. It's the same reason that she and Fenris share a good chuckle during their act 3 banter, where they talk about the slavers Fenris notifed Aveline about. 

So why does she like Rival Hawke less for giving Isabela the ship?

It isn't necessarily liking her less, she just disagrees less. I.e. "Maybe she's not completely backward in her way of thinking after all"

[Zjarcal]

TeenZombie wrote...

I do love her talk afterwards, though, when you do kill Castillon, that was when I really realized that Isabela is the
character with the most growth in DA2 (in my humble and biased opinion).

YES!

That conversation was my favorite Isabela moment, hell one of my favorite moments in the game, period. And I kind of agree with the character growth thing.

[JamesMCornett]

And maybe it's just me, but doesn't Isabela seem to backfire just about everything? I mean, almost every thing I tired to get her on my side seemed to somehow cause her rivalry, while things I figured she'd be upset about seemed to actually gain approval. She's one of the more confusing characters to figure out up until the end.

[berelinde]

In general:

Doing nice things for Isabela = friendship
Profit = friendship
Anything Aveline's superego would approve of = rivalry
Freedom and personal choice = friendship
Oppression = rivalry
Joking around (purple) = friendship
Serious/aggressive (red) = rivalry
Doing bad things to anyone who hurts kids = friendship
Fun = friendship
Responsibility = rivalry

In Acts 2 and 3, existing status matters. Being consistent when friendship exists = friendship points. Being consistent when rivalry exists = rivalry points.

[Wulfram]

(Random Isabela screenshot in attempt to be on topic)

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It isn't necessarily liking her less, she just disagrees less. I.e. "Maybe she's not completely backward in her way of thinking after all"

High rivalry means that people stay with you and low rivalry means they betray you.  So getting Friendship means they like you less.  Which is sort of tolerable when it's because you're flip-flopping on their key issue, but is hugely annoying when it's just because they happen to like what you did.

[hoorayforicecream]

JamesMCornett wrote...

And maybe it's just me, but doesn't Isabela seem to backfire just about everything? I mean, almost every thing I tired to get her on my side seemed to somehow cause her rivalry, while things I figured she'd be upset about seemed to actually gain approval. She's one of the more confusing characters to figure out up until the end.

I didn't think so. She likes coin and giggles. She doesn't really think long term. She likes freedom to do what she wants. So asking for money, asking for reward, and helping people be free tend to give friendship points with her. Doing things selflessly, skipping rewards, encouraging people to follow the law or help slavers grants rivalry points. If you take a look at my FAQ, most of the choices follow these guidelines.

[berelinde]

TeenZombie wrote...

As much as I hate slavers, I'm with Aveline on this one, I irrationally want to give Isabela the ship every time, even if it means letting Castillon go to do bad things another day. I do love her talk afterwards, though, when you do kill Castillon, that was when I really realized that Isabela is the character with the most growth in DA2 (in my humble and biased opinion).

Yeah, I agree with you on that one.

And I give Isabela the ship every single time. Because, dirt-bag that Castillon is, this is Isabela's call. Just like when Fenris is about to kill Varania, I let him do it. Most of my Hawkes wouldn't presume to tell somebody else what's best for them.

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

High rivalry means that people stay with you and low rivalry means they betray you.

I think you're actually misrepresenting it. "High approval means that they stay with you. Low approval means they betray you" would be more accurate. And even then, that's not quite true. Low approval doesn't necessarily mean betrayal except for a few cases (Act 2 Isabela, endgame Merrill and Fenris who are mutually exclusive, very rarely Aveline).

So getting Friendship means they like you less.  Which is sort of tolerable when it's because you're flip-flopping on their key issue, but is hugely annoying when it's just because they happen to like what you did.

I don't fault you for feeling this way. But then again, it just means that they are either inconsistent with their viewpoints, or you just don't understand them. If it's genuinely inconsistent, I would dislike it. But if they are consistent, then I'd say it's a consequence of Hawke not necessarily knowing her companions as well as she thinks (or not valuing their approval as much).

[Jellyfloater]

I can't wait to bring Isabela along on the new DLC. Especially since, given her ties to the Orlesians and the Qunari, she should have quite a bit to say . Hopefully this DLC has a bit more acknowledgement of the romance, AFAIK she only had her line right at the beginning in Legacy (according to the wiki she says something else about it in a conversation with Varric, but I couldn't get it to trigger).

[Master Shiori]

Mike Laidlaw hinted that any companion with ties to Orlais or the Qunari would be a good pick for this DLC, so that means Izzy may have plenty of lines thins time around. Aveline and Fenris may also be worth bringing along.

[TobiTobsen]

Well... she could make some comments about the Swiss Guard uniforms of the Chevaliers. Hawke should get one too... for roleplaying-purposes.

"The Chevalier catches the naughty pirate". Ah... yeah... good times.

[hoorayforicecream]

Not really sure why an illiterate Tevinter slave would be knowledgeable about Orlesian custom, but I'll happily take Isabela on a fancy date. I would love to see Isabela act jealous, but I get the feeling she'd be more welcoming of a hot elf in the bed as a third party than most Hawkes would.

[Master Shiori]

True hooray. And Felicia Day did say how Tallis is flirty towards Hawke. Sounds like her and Isabela might get along quite well.

Oh, and Fenris wouldn't have much to do with Orlesians, but he knows more about the Qunari than any ther companion.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 16 septembre 2011 - 04:06 .