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[Sifr]

Well, in Male!Hawke's case, is it to hard to imagine Isabela using her wiles to make him try on sexy female underwear?

Isabela: I can't believe I got you to wear them...
Male!Hawke: I can't believe.. *under his breathe* Isortaenjoyedit...
Varric: Something to add to my tale, Hawke?
Male!Hawke: NO!
Isabela: The next chapter of Friend-fiction however...
Varric: It had better, Rivaini...

[Quething]

I don't know, I think Anders is more of a skinny, weasel-shaped creeper than a huge one, Aveline's really the only huge party member.

But yeah, I don't think he takes Isabela very seriously as competition. Actually I don't think he takes her very seriously in general. I get the sense from that one bugged banter about the Tome that their relationship was meant to be a bit more dynamic, and whether they got along would depend on whether you Rivaled or Friended her, but as-is it seems like a simple case of him sometimes liking her, but never really respecting her.

(Looking back, I'm pretty sure the thing that sealed Anders' fate with me was the first time I heard their pre-Qun Crisis banter about the Tome; they're having a perfectly friendly conversation and then bam, "no, your hand isn't what I hear you've been showing," completely unrelated blatantly hypocritical s!ut-shaming out of absolutely nowhere. Can't blame that one on Justice.)

Speaking of Rivallng, a question for you Rivalmancers! I largely prefer the Friendmance, for multiple reasons, one of which is that it simply seems more coherent. I can tell what's going on in a Friendmance: in a nutshell, they have fun together. Isabela likes Hawke because Hawke takes her fun places with fun fights and fun treasure, and is a good person to get drunk with. Also, Hawke is a good person who helps people and looks out for her friends, which, per Merrill, Izzy seems to like, provided nobody's asking her to be a good person, which Hawke doesn't really.

I can't figure out what the dynamic is in a Rivalmance. Her midstage QB and ambient dialog indicate she thinks Hawke is a boring, goody-two-shoes stick in the mud. But if Hawke is a boring, goody-two-shoes, Izzy's usually going to end up Friended, because she likes when you're nice to her, and forgiving and compassionate about her screw-ups rather than judgemental. And "boring" and "sexy" don't really go together. Meanwhile, the fastest path to Rivalry gains is to be a red Hawke and just be a total jerk to her. So which is it? Is Hawke boring, or a passionate jerk?

The closest I can figure is to picture it as something like her relationship with Aveline. But in that case why does she stick around? It's not for the sex, she follows Hawke around for three years before that happens. It doesn't seem like it'd be for the adventure, because the adventure would always be for the benefit of The Man - I don't see Izzy sitting around going "I don't want to leave Kirkwall just yet, I might get to rescue a guard from an ambush for no coin or return tonight!" It's not for love, that takes her years and her response to love is to run, anyway. Is she just cultivating Hawke's friendship because Hawke's badassery might be useful against Castillon?

And what should Rivalry sex have looked like? Because the scene we got is obviously Friendmance.

[hoorayforicecream]

Quething wrote...

I can't figure out what the dynamic is in a Rivalmance. Her midstage QB and ambient dialog indicate she thinks Hawke is a boring, goody-two-shoes stick in the mud. But if Hawke is a boring, goody-two-shoes, Izzy's usually going to end up Friended, because she likes when you're nice to her, and forgiving and compassionate about her screw-ups rather than judgemental. And "boring" and "sexy" don't really go together. Meanwhile, the fastest path to Rivalry gains is to be a red Hawke and just be a total jerk to her. So which is it? Is Hawke boring, or a passionate jerk?

Not quite... Someone who lives by a higher standard (generous, law-abiding, etc.) doesn't necessarily always forgive. Being a goody-two-shoes stick-in-the-mud doesn't have to mean compassion and understanding for everything; it could just as easily mean that Hawke clearly expects more from Isabela because she has that potential there. I could see people interpreting it as a tough-love approach. And there's always something attractive and charismatic about someone who is passionately dedicated to his or her ideals and lives as an example of it.

The closest I can figure is to picture it as something like her relationship with Aveline. But in that case why does she stick around? It's not for the sex, she follows Hawke around for three years before that happens. It doesn't seem like it'd be for the adventure, because the adventure would always be for the benefit of The Man - I don't see Izzy sitting around going "I don't want to leave Kirkwall just yet, I might get to rescue a guard from an ambush for no coin or return tonight!" It's not for love, that takes her years and her response to love is to run, anyway. Is she just cultivating Hawke's friendship because Hawke's badassery might be useful against Castillon?

My thought is that she sticks around because of Castillon, who Isabela is deathly afraid of. Hawke is totally capable, and helps her get things done, and the goody-two-shoes Hawke wouldn't let anything happen to Isabela on her watch. Rival Hawke is a safe haven for Isabela to stay in, not to mention that Hawke is (supposed to be) knockout gorgeous. Thus, Isabela would stay with Hawke for the sake of survival and having someone incredibly powerful and capable to help her look for the relic and keep her safe from Castillon. As the years pass, Isabela would slowly gravitate toward the better part of herself.

And what should Rivalry sex have looked like? Because the scene we got is obviously Friendmance.

I'd imagine it would go something like Argument > Heated argument > physical altercation > angry sex. Post-coital talk would probably be about how Isabela is so much better than how she behaves, and how Hawke can see it in her even if she can't see it in herself.

There's a lot of issues with the rivalry romance in general. Some of the rivalry points don't seem properly distributed. Most of them are just 'do what she dislikes', but they shouldn't always be that way. I think the main issue is that they didn't spend enough time differentiating the paths; specifically, some decisions should provide rivalry if you're a rival or friendship if you're a friend (similar to the way the gifts work), rather than a predetermined path. The biggest issue why I prefer the friendship over the rivalry is that with the rivalry I'm not terribly sure whether Isabela's changing for the better for Hawke, or for herself. Whereas, with the friendship, I feel like I know exactly where she stands. I do think there needs to be more flirtation available via the rivalry side though... there really needs to be some indicators that show Isabela finding herself attracted to Hawke and vice versa. As it stands, it feels pretty disjointed.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:53 .

[Nyxia]

this picture is so cute, anyone knows the sauce?

[Master Shiori]

Nyxia wrote...

this picture is so cute, anyone knows the sauce?

*snip*

It's a fanart of Isabela and Hawke from Deviantart.

I don't remember who the artist is, but you can check the group "Pirate of Thedas" on DeviantART. It's dedicated to Isabela and contains a lot of fanart of her and Hawke.

[hoorayforicecream]

Nyxia wrote...

this picture is so cute, anyone knows the sauce?

It's called "DAII - Embrace", by DeviantDeath.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:52 .

[Nyxia]

Oww thanks. You have been helpful.
I don't know anything about deviantart at all.

[Sealy]

I thought that Isabela wouldn't stay if you tell her to give the book back, she came back for my Hawke is that a glitch?

[Batlass8]

Fleshdress wrote...

I thought that Isabela wouldn't stay if you tell her to give the book back, she came back for my Hawke is that a glitch?

Nope!  If Isabela thinks highly of your Hawke, or if they're in a romance, she returns to save the day!  (And to get saved in turn, but I'm sure she leaves that part out of her retellings).

[Master Shiori]

As long as you do her Questioning Beliefs quest in Act 2, she'll come back no matter how you handled To Catch a Thief, provided you've accepted her quest.

[TobiTobsen]

Aw, man. Just tried to do a runthrough with a Merrillmance and ended up romancing Isabela once again.

Hawke just can't leave her well alone. Seems like she was right. Hawke likes rogues. Rivaini rogues especially

[Master Shiori]

Isabela is irresistible. My Hawke fell head over heels for her the moment he first saw her in the Hanged Man. After she got to know her well, there was no going back.

[King Minos]

I like Isabela because she changes for Hawke. That is dedication, loyalty and possibly love, changing your ways for someone you care for. Everyone has a nice side, some need a little push. Isabella's comments on if she has a chance with Hawke is touching.

[hoorayforicecream]

I can't imagine playing through DA2 without Hawke being with Isabela. I just really like how they interact and behave around each other.

That said, for those interested, I'm getting close to finishing the first draft of a new Snacking story. It's been a while since I wrote a new story, and I got seriously distracted by Mark of the Assassin. Hope you folks enjoy it.

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I can't imagine playing through DA2 without Hawke being with Isabela. I just really like how they interact and behave around each other.

Same here. Nowadays I just click on that flirt icon in Act 2 out of reflex, and afterwards can't bring myself to break it off. Sarcastic Hawke and Isabela fit each other like hand and a glove. 

hoorayforicecream wrote...


That said, for those interested, I'm getting close to finishing the first draft of a new Snacking story. It's been a while since I wrote a new story, and I got seriously distracted by Mark of the Assassin. Hope you folks enjoy it.

Great news. Looking forward to it. 

[TobiTobsen]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

That said, for those interested, I'm getting close to finishing the first draft of a new Snacking story. It's been a while since I wrote a new story, and I got seriously distracted by Mark of the Assassin. Hope you folks enjoy it.

I'm already excited!

[Quething]

Haha, I can pull off a Fenris romance if I play a male Hawke. But my Merrillmancing f!Hawke took an enormous amount of self-control.

[syllogi]

Even when my Hawke is not in a romance with her, it's my favorite endgame conversation.  Gets me every time.

[ladyofpayne]

If onnly could be possible for me Change Isabela on Tallis. Isabela even in MOA jokes only about sex, I can't listen it.

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 23 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .

[Quething]

I agree, TZ, really powerful.

I love the variation, too. She's got a different convo for romance, maxed, and unmaxed, all with different degrees of personal loyalty/personal growth behind her motivations. I actually think I like the unmaxed Rival best, though it's been a while since I've heard it - I hit it completely by accident on a mod-testing Act III speed-run and was really moved, but I haven't heard it since, because how do you not finish Izzy's QB, I mean really. Particularly if you're romancing her, which as mentioned, I find it quite hard not to do.

[syllogi]

Quething wrote...

I agree, TZ, really powerful.

I love the variation, too. She's got a different convo for romance, maxed, and unmaxed, all with different degrees of personal loyalty/personal growth behind her motivations. I actually think I like the unmaxed Rival best, though it's been a while since I've heard it - I hit it completely by accident on a mod-testing Act III speed-run and was really moved, but I haven't heard it since, because how do you not finish Izzy's QB, I mean really. Particularly if you're romancing her, which as mentioned, I find it quite hard not to do.

My problem is that I have a really hard time rivaling Isabela...I did it in one playthrough, and I didn't like it at all.  I haven't finished Act Three on that game, much less the endgame, so I haven't had a chance to hear her dialogue.  I guess that's motivation.  

I do wish the rivalry path was less rude and nasty with her.  Hearing her banter with Aveline is hilarious, but we do also get the impression that there is genuine affection underneath the sniping.  With Hawke, in a rivalry friendship, at least, I got the impression that she and Isabela just don't like each other.  It made me sad, since I can see why a Hawke would have reason to disagree with her outlook, without yelling at her all the time.

[hoorayforicecream]

TeenZombie wrote...

My problem is that I have a really hard time rivaling Isabela...I did it in one playthrough, and I didn't like it at all.  I haven't finished Act Three on that game, much less the endgame, so I haven't had a chance to hear her dialogue.  I guess that's motivation.  

I do wish the rivalry path was less rude and nasty with her.  Hearing her banter with Aveline is hilarious, but we do also get the impression that there is genuine affection underneath the sniping.  With Hawke, in a rivalry friendship, at least, I got the impression that she and Isabela just don't like each other.  It made me sad, since I can see why a Hawke would have reason to disagree with her outlook, without yelling at her all the time.

The rivalry path felt very uneven to me... mostly because it shares scenes with the friendship (especially romance scenes), but also because there really doesn't seem to be any scenes where we actually see the two of them bonding despite the rivalry.

On a different note, I've had a question I've been meaning to ask folks here. What would it take to get you to dislike Isabela as a character? This came up somewhat recently for me with the DC comics universal reboot that they had last month. One of my favorite characters was rebooted into a shell of her former self, with practically all of her history and personality removed and instead leaving her just a comic book sex object. It made me very sad. Combine that bad taste in my mouth with the announcement of a Dragon Age comic, and I immediately feared whether a similar fate would befall Isabela.

If they took Isabela and stripped her of what makes her fantastic (the layered depths of her character), and left her as shallow as ladyofpayne keeps saying she is, would you still like her as a character? So what do you think? What would it take for you to dislike Isabela?

[Quething]

I wish Rivalry was a lot of things. :/ I said upthread that one of the reasons I don't care for it is that it feels so underdeveloped; another is that, as you say, it feels sort of mean-spirited, a lot of Hawke berating Izzy and Izzy not seeming to much like Hawke, in any way; another is that it feels too much like "a wicked woman turned pious by the love of a good man" (this is somewhat alleviated by the fact that I only romance her with f!Hawke, but I still find it troublesome).

Part of how I get around that with the one Rivalmance Hawke I have is by switching midstream. The theory behind that Hawke is that she lives very much by the Spider-Man principle; she has great power (head of the family, mage, noble), and because of that, she has a responsibility to do good with it, and expects the same of others. Hence, she rivals Seb, Merrill, and Anders, because they've got all this power and they squander it on exile, blood magic, consorting with demons, abandoning their birthright and the city that needs them, etc etc.

Through the first two acts, though, she's fine with Izzy's carefree nature and claims of shallowness, because as far as she knows, Izzy has no real power, and on the odd occasion when she actually does, she does the right thing with it (Castillon's slave shipment). So she doesn't hassle her and enjoys the outlet that their relationship provides her, and that gets them to the friendship QB. Then, of course, the Tome secret comes out, and she changes her tune.

This tends to require a bit of console work, because I can't find 150 reliable Rivalry points between her first QB and the endgame. But it makes the Rivalmance work for me, because it provides that sense of connection that I don't so much feel otherwise and skips over a lot of the rudeness. (Which actually I don't think is all that different from Aveline and Isabela - Aveline really doesn't like Isabela until Act II or so - but it makes less sense for me with Hawke and Isabela because Aveline and Izzy have Hawke to force their association through that initial rough patch, while Hawke and Isabela have at most the threat of Castillon.)

[Quething]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The rivalry path felt very uneven to me... mostly because it shares scenes with the friendship (especially romance scenes), but also because there really doesn't seem to be any scenes where we actually see the two of them bonding despite the rivalry.

On a different note, I've had a question I've been meaning to ask folks here. What would it take to get you to dislike Isabela as a character? This came up somewhat recently for me with the DC comics universal reboot that they had last month. One of my favorite characters was rebooted into a shell of her former self, with practically all of her history and personality removed and instead leaving her just a comic book sex object. It made me very sad. Combine that bad taste in my mouth with the announcement of a Dragon Age comic, and I immediately feared whether a similar fate would befall Isabela.

Oh, let me guess! Selina? Babs? Waller? It's... actually kind of astounding how many women you might mean. <_<

If they took Isabela and stripped her of what makes her fantastic (the layered depths of her character), and left her as shallow as ladyofpayne keeps saying she is, would you still like her as a character? So what do you think? What would it take for you to dislike Isabela?

If I understand ladyofpayne's perception correctly, she thinks Izzy's just a woman who has a lot of sex and isn't ashamed of it. In which case I think I'd actually still like her. I wouldn't love her, but "women who enjoy sex can be good guys" is still a message we don't get enough in our culture, and I'd appreciate having her in the cast.

I think where she'd lose me as a fan is if that got subverted somehow. If they pulled a She-Hulk/Huntress on her, while we're talking comics, and made her promiscuity all about some secret self-loathing quest for validation instead of just a thing she does cuz she likes it, or made it a reaction to some (probably sexual) trauma in her past that she had to heal through.

Actually angst in general would do it. I like Isabela's free spirit, and the fact that when bad things happen to her, she moves on. Some of it stays with her, obviously; it takes her a long time to get over her rejection of love and accept her feelings for Hawke, and I like that too. But it's not like Anders where she's all NO I'LL HURT YOU AUGH, it's just... there and she's cool with that, until she has reason to get past it, and then she quietly does. I think the angst suits the boys, I'm not knocking the Andersmance, but if Izzy came down with a case of it she'd lose a lot of her appeal for me.

[whykikyouwhy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If they took Isabela and stripped her of what makes her fantastic (the layered depths of her character), and left her as shallow as ladyofpayne keeps saying she is, would you still like her as a character? So what do you think? What would it take for you to dislike Isabela?

If you apply "shallow" to any character, I probably wouldn't be as invested or interested in him/her. Particularly so with Isabela. It's the depth that drew me in (well...).

So, somewhat to echo Quething, if Isabela were to have the typical "I have sex because I believe myself to be bad/unworthy/less, etc" attitude, I wouldn't care so much about her. If she contradicted the principles that she does stand upon, she would not be held in such regard. Really, if you stripped away the pieces that are within and that are the meat behind the hawt veneer, then I would probably dislike her, because she would be just the busty female character injected into the game for the sheer sake of that bust size.

It's her loyalty, her free spirit, confidence, unabashedness (is that a word?), and vulnerability that make her the wonderful character that she is. Take all of that away, and she wouldn't tug at my geek heart the way that she currently does.