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[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

On a different note, I've had a question I've been meaning to ask folks here. What would it take to get you to dislike Isabela as a character? This came up somewhat recently for me with the DC comics universal reboot that they had last month. One of my favorite characters was rebooted into a shell of her former self, with practically all of her history and personality removed and instead leaving her just a comic book sex object. It made me very sad. Combine that bad taste in my mouth with the announcement of a Dragon Age comic, and I immediately feared whether a similar fate would befall Isabela.

If they took Isabela and stripped her of what makes her fantastic (the layered depths of her character), and left her as shallow as ladyofpayne keeps saying she is, would you still like her as a character? So what do you think? What would it take for you to dislike Isabela?

I wouldn't, or at least, I wouldn't like her as much as I currently do. 

A large part of Isabela's appeal, for me, likes in the fact that she's a much deeper character than she lets on. It's her commitment to her friends and her willingness to risk her own life for them that makes her such a deep character. 

If she were truly a carefree individual who cares only about her own pleasure (like she likes to pretend), then I certainly wouldn't like her as much.

But I don't fear what Bioware might do to Isabela and Varric in the comic. Why? Because adding them in is an attempt to capitalize on their popularity and give the readers more of what we had in DA2. People who played the game and loved these characters will get more of what they liked, and those who never played DA2 will get to know them and, possibly, pick up the game as the result.

Turning them into shallow versions of themselves serves no purpose. It will alienate the current fans on one hand, while anyone who did get to know them throw the comic will be taken aback by how different they are in the game itself.


Can't comment on DC and it's reboot, but according to what you've said, it seems like they're setting themselves up for a quite a backlash.

[syllogi]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The rivalry path felt very uneven to me... mostly because it shares scenes with the friendship (especially romance scenes), but also because there really doesn't seem to be any scenes where we actually see the two of them bonding despite the rivalry.

On a different note, I've had a question I've been meaning to ask folks here. What would it take to get you to dislike Isabela as a character? This came up somewhat recently for me with the DC comics universal reboot that they had last month. One of my favorite characters was rebooted into a shell of her former self, with practically all of her history and personality removed and instead leaving her just a comic book sex object. It made me very sad. Combine that bad taste in my mouth with the announcement of a Dragon Age comic, and I immediately feared whether a similar fate would befall Isabela.

If they took Isabela and stripped her of what makes her fantastic (the layered depths of her character), and left her as shallow as ladyofpayne keeps saying she is, would you still like her as a character? So what do you think? What would it take for you to dislike Isabela?

Yes, even one scene that affirmed that their rivalry was creating a bond on its own would have made it more palatable to me.

As for what it would take to make me dislike Isabela; I guess she would have to become a parody of herself, sort of what you are talking about with the DC comic characters (and I can guess whom you're referring to...this whole reboot has been a hot mess).  

I don't know if everyone remembers it (or had it available when it was on tv), but I'm reminded of my intense dislike of the character Blanche Devereaux from the television show The Golden Girls.  She is what I really wouldn't want to see in a character like Isabela; she was a one note joke, constantly talking about sex and her many conquests.  The only thing that made her tolerable was her relationship to Dorothy (I guess she would be her "Aveline," lol).

I also like that even when Isabela is portrayed as selfish and greedy, she's very human, and deep down, a good person.  She knows that taking the ship and letting Castillon go is wrong, but taking the path of least resistance is very tempting...just as it would be for most people in real life.  Not seeing her regret in the aftermath of this decision would have been a loss, and not acknowledging that she was fully aware of her actions in that moment, would have lessened it's impact.  Basically, the fact that she was weak, gave into her weakness, and felt remorse, was pretty awesome.  I like "human" characters, and that felt like one of the most "human" scenes in the game.

[Mr.House]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
On a different note, I've had a question I've been meaning to ask folks here. What would it take to get you to dislike Isabela as a character? This came up somewhat recently for me with the DC comics universal reboot that they had last month. One of my favorite characters was rebooted into a shell of her former self, with practically all of her history and personality removed and instead leaving her just a comic book sex object. It made me very sad. Combine that bad taste in my mouth with the announcement of a Dragon Age comic, and I immediately feared whether a similar fate would befall Isabela.

-Made her a goody two shoe
-She left a romance Hawke
-She is no longer snarky
-She is not sexual

[Batlass8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
On a different note, I've had a question I've been meaning to ask folks here. What would it take to get you to dislike Isabela as a character? This came up somewhat recently for me with the DC comics universal reboot that they had last month. One of my favorite characters was rebooted into a shell of her former self, with practically all of her history and personality removed and instead leaving her just a comic book sex object. It made me very sad. Combine that bad taste in my mouth with the announcement of a Dragon Age comic, and I immediately feared whether a similar fate would befall Isabela.

Oooh, who's your ruined character?  Starfire?  Barbara?  Actually, it could be anyone but Batwoman, couldn't it?  *sobs quietly*

Ahem.  Isabela, yes.

What I love the most about Isabela is that she doesn't care what anyone thinks of her.  The conversation where she says she knows who she is, so haters don't bother her is the reason I gave her a chance as a character in the first place.  If she suddenly started to censor herself or to worry about how people would react to her decisions (not the consequences of her decisions, but people's reactions to her decisions), I wouldn't respect her as much.  Isabela owns who she is, and that more than anything, IMHO is what makes her so badass.

[Quething]

Batlass8 wrote...

Oooh, who's your ruined character?  Starfire?  Barbara?  Actually, it could be anyone but Batwoman, couldn't it?  *sobs quietly*

Actually, Diana made it out pretty well! I've been digging Wonder Woman more than I have since... actually, way back when Rucka was writing it. Which is weird not just because of the reboot, but because Azarello is like, discount Morrison, and I really don't lke Morrison.

And Dinah's doing pretty well for herself, if you don't mind Birds without Oracle. Which admittedly is like saying "DA:O without Alistair and Morrigan" but. Y'know. It's the DCnU. We gotta take what we can get, right? <_<

What I love the most about Isabela is that she doesn't care what anyone thinks of her.  The conversation where she says she knows who she is, so haters don't bother her is the reason I gave her a chance as a character in the first place.

You know, I've been thinking about that quote, and it makes me a bit sad. Because the corollary to that is that her admirers don't please her, either. If it doesn't mean anything that a guy calls her a pirate hag because he doesn't know her, than equally, it doesn't mean anything if he calls her beautiful. If the only people who's opinions she can take seriously are people who have a long-standing connection to her and really do know her, like Hawke, than she has not had a lot of real, meaningful affirmation in her life.

I mean, we knew that anyway. But I hadn't really thought about the extent of it before, and it makes me admire her all the more, that her self-image is so... self-sufficient, I guess. I mean she does clearly have a relatively low opinion of herself sometimes - it pokes through in a few banters with Merrill, and her conversation quest that opens Act III - but those are astonishingly mild and rare moments considering.

[hoorayforicecream]

Quething wrote...

You know, I've been thinking about that quote, and it makes me a bit sad. Because the corollary to that is that her admirers don't please her, either. If it doesn't mean anything that a guy calls her a pirate hag because he doesn't know her, than equally, it doesn't mean anything if he calls her beautiful. If the only people who's opinions she can take seriously are people who have a long-standing connection to her and really do know her, like Hawke, than she has not had a lot of real, meaningful affirmation in her life.

I mean, we knew that anyway. But I hadn't really thought about the extent of it before, and it makes me admire her all the more, that her self-image is so... self-sufficient, I guess. I mean she does clearly have a relatively low opinion of herself sometimes - it pokes through in a few banters with Merrill, and her conversation quest that opens Act III - but those are astonishingly mild and rare moments considering.

I agree, and I think it's quite sad that Isabela has such an opinion of herself. It makes some sense though; even if she doesn't think she's lived such a great life, she's still an adult and a pragmatist about it. She knows that she can't change the past, and she does say "Our mistakes make us who we are." She's not particularly proud of her past, but she lives with it and accepts it.

One of the things I've been thinking about lately was about how lonely her life must have been. I think the closest friends she had must have been her crew, and even then I'm not sure whether they'd really have her back like she says Hawke does (her opinion of pirate crews doesn't seem terribly high, given the quest in MotA). I'm fairly certain it wasn't her previous lovers. The thought makes me want to give her a big hug.

[Zjarcal]

TeenZombie wrote...

My problem is that I have a really hard time rivaling Isabela...I did it in one playthrough, and I didn't like it at all.  I haven't finished Act Three on that game, much less the endgame, so I haven't had a chance to hear her dialogue.  I guess that's motivation.  

Here you go, probably one of my top 5 favorite moments in the game:

I do wish the rivalry path was less rude and nasty with her.  Hearing her banter with Aveline is hilarious, but we do also get the impression that there is genuine affection underneath the sniping.  With Hawke, in a rivalry friendship, at least, I got the impression that she and Isabela just don't like each other.  It made me sad, since I can see why a Hawke would have reason to disagree with her outlook, without yelling at her all the time.

I personally love the rivalry path BECAUSE of how rough it is. My Hawke's relationship with Isabela starts nice but quickly detoriarates in act 2, so I really like all the tension that goes on between them from there on. It makes for some powerful stuff that I really enjoy.

Isabela is my second favorite companion in the game, but that was only cemented after I played the rivalry path which was infinitely more satisfying to me than the friendship path.

[Mr.House]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Quething wrote...

You know, I've been thinking about that quote, and it makes me a bit sad. Because the corollary to that is that her admirers don't please her, either. If it doesn't mean anything that a guy calls her a pirate hag because he doesn't know her, than equally, it doesn't mean anything if he calls her beautiful. If the only people who's opinions she can take seriously are people who have a long-standing connection to her and really do know her, like Hawke, than she has not had a lot of real, meaningful affirmation in her life.

I mean, we knew that anyway. But I hadn't really thought about the extent of it before, and it makes me admire her all the more, that her self-image is so... self-sufficient, I guess. I mean she does clearly have a relatively low opinion of herself sometimes - it pokes through in a few banters with Merrill, and her conversation quest that opens Act III - but those are astonishingly mild and rare moments considering.

I agree, and I think it's quite sad that Isabela has such an opinion of herself. It makes some sense though; even if she doesn't think she's lived such a great life, she's still an adult and a pragmatist about it. She knows that she can't change the past, and she does say "Our mistakes make us who we are." She's not particularly proud of her past, but she lives with it and accepts it.

One of the things I've been thinking about lately was about how lonely her life must have been. I think the closest friends she had must have been her crew, and even then I'm not sure whether they'd really have her back like she says Hawke does (her opinion of pirate crews doesn't seem terribly high, given the quest in MotA). I'm fairly certain it wasn't her previous lovers. The thought makes me want to give her a big hug.

Plus this little piece of banter.

• Fenris: You've been to Orlais, Isabela?
• Isabela: Once or twice. Spent some time in a prison in Val Chevin.
• Fenris: But you broke out?
• Isabela: Broke into, actually. Getting out was the easy part.
• Fenris: All to steal something magnificient, I imagine?
• Isabela: No! They threw my first mate in there. I'd always liked Casavir, so I wasn't going to just abandon him.
• Fenris: Ah. And he is dead now, along with the rest of your crew?
• Isabela: Him? No, I left him on the docks. The idiot.

[Dave of Canada]

Stupid question: Why doesn't Isabela take the ship if you refuse to let Castillion go? She says it's amateurish to kill someone and take their ship, it's just odd that she just doesn't take it anyway when she doesn't have a choice about how the situation went down.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2011 - 05:44 .

[Esbatty]

I definitely would like to see some nod to her possibly recent crew acquisition in DA3. MotA is good times. I kinda feel bad about telling her not to keep her new shiny.

[TEWR]

Esbatty wrote...

I definitely would like to see some nod to her possibly recent crew acquisition in DA3. MotA is good times. I kinda feel bad about telling her not to keep her new shiny.

I wish Hawke could get it as a gift from Isabela. Curse gets broken and the dagger is still acquired. Then if Hawke gets a ship he can give it to Isabela as a gift!

4 rune slots and electricity damage and my damn morality gets in the way of my damn greed this one time 

@DoC: I assume it's because Hawke sort of ruined the idea of Isabela outsmarting Castillon, so she doesn't want the ship anymore.

But I'm not an Isabela expert. I'm a Merrill expert. I'm sure some of the Isabela experts can give you the real answer.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:37 .

[Tyrium]

I mader her give it back too Stupid morality

[Esbatty]

4 RUNE SLOTS?!?! SONUVANUGHUMPER!

[hoorayforicecream]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stupid question: Why doesn't Isabela take the ship if you refuse to let Castillion go? She says it's amateurish to kill someone and take their ship, it's just odd that she just doesn't take it anyway when she doesn't have a choice about how the situation went down.

Probably because Castillon's men would have heard of his death, pulled up anchor, and left Kirkwall. There's no proof that the raiders Hawke kills along with Castillon are all of his men - in fact, it's much more likely (what with Castillon being a wealth well-connected slaver and all) that Castillon has many more subordinates handling the other parts of his local business. Hawke might be able to race to the docks and kill the men on the ship to commandeer it, but that seems unlikely.

[Esbatty]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stupid question: Why doesn't Isabela take the ship if you refuse to let Castillion go? She says it's amateurish to kill someone and take their ship, it's just odd that she just doesn't take it anyway when she doesn't have a choice about how the situation went down.

Probably because Castillon's men would have heard of his death, pulled up anchor, and left Kirkwall. There's no proof that the raiders Hawke kills along with Castillon are all of his men - in fact, it's much more likely (what with Castillon being a wealth well-connected slaver and all) that Castillon has many more subordinates handling the other parts of his local business. Hawke might be able to race to the docks and kill the men on the ship to commandeer it, but that seems unlikely.

Isabela: *visibly upset*
Hawke: He was a slaver! He had it coming!
Isabela: *still upset*
Hawke: *sigh* Fine, I'll go kill all his crew off his ship so you can have it.
Aveline: *visibly upset*
Hawke: UGH... Intimidate all his crew off his ship so Isabela can have it.
Merrill: *giggles*
Hawke: I don't even know what you want me to do on that ship, Merrill.
Merrill: Your nose flares when you're frustrated. *holds up a hand* If I cover your eyes, your nostrils kind of resemble Ogre eyes.
Hawke: *sighs* Lead the way, Isabela.

[syllogi]

Zjarcal wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

My problem is that I have a really hard time rivaling Isabela...I did it in one playthrough, and I didn't like it at all.  I haven't finished Act Three on that game, much less the endgame, so I haven't had a chance to hear her dialogue.  I guess that's motivation.  

Here you go, probably one of my top 5 favorite moments in the game:

I do wish the rivalry path was less rude and nasty with her.  Hearing her banter with Aveline is hilarious, but we do also get the impression that there is genuine affection underneath the sniping.  With Hawke, in a rivalry friendship, at least, I got the impression that she and Isabela just don't like each other.  It made me sad, since I can see why a Hawke would have reason to disagree with her outlook, without yelling at her all the time.

I personally love the rivalry path BECAUSE of how rough it is. My Hawke's relationship with Isabela starts nice but quickly detoriarates in act 2, so I really like all the tension that goes on between them from there on. It makes for some powerful stuff that I really enjoy.

Isabela is my second favorite companion in the game, but that was only cemented after I played the rivalry path which was infinitely more satisfying to me than the friendship path.

I've done Castillon's quest both ways, so I've heard that dialogue too, and I agree, both paths are wonderful.  I meant I haven't heard her rivalry endgame speech inside the Gallows.

My problem with the rivalry path is simply not showing *why* Hawke and Isabela would still hang around each other if they dislike each other so much.  I prefer Fenris's rivalry path, for instance, because there seems to be a mutual respect that has been built despite their differences, and the dialogue is clear about that.  Isabela has no rivalry scenes that give me something to work with, just the sniping.  You can make her give the ship back on the friendship path, and get that scene afterwards, so it's not specific to rivalry.  I guess it's just my preference of how I would like rivalry to work...some characters make me feel like I'm being down right abusive when I go that route, while others feel like I'm still treating them like equals and colleagues while disagreeing.  Isabela is in the middle, in my opinion, but I wish her path was more of the latter.

And I just figured that Castillon's crew would leave or fight if he was dead, and they're part of the ship too.  hoorayforicecream's theory makes the most sense, though.  

Modifié par TeenZombie, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Zjarcal]

TeenZombie wrote...

You can make her give the ship back on the friendship path, and get that scene afterwards, so it's not specific to rivalry.

That particular scene is rivalry specific. The ship part applies to both paths, but the part where she says she wants to change and become a better person only happens in the rivalry path.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

4 rune slots and electricity damage and my damn morality gets in the way of my damn greed this one time 

Then again the DLC daggers have other stats that make up for the missing rune slots.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:22 .

[ladyofpayne]

Isabela is sex concerned and about her will be comics. Shameless Fanservice. WHY ISABELA BUT NOT FENRIS?!

[Mr.House]

Pfft, you guys and your morality

[ladyofpayne]

My moral has normal level. That why I call "wh*res" wh*res, but don't expire on the type of saliva boobs. And I don't call people with different opinion "trolls"

[hoorayforicecream]

Mr.House wrote...

Pfft, you guys and your morality

I really liked how she doesn't always choose to free them. She can choose to keep the dagger, if you leave it to her.

That said, I gave it to her. I just can't say no, especially when she says she wants to keep it.

Edit: Side note, new Snacking story should be posted very soon (tonight or tomorrow I think?). Cheers.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:43 .

[Master Shiori]

Great news hooray. Looking forward to it!

[ad1dash0lm3s]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Side note, new Snacking story should be posted very soon (tonight or tomorrow I think?). Cheers.

Awesome, I can't wait! 

[Mr.House]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Pfft, you guys and your morality

I really liked how she doesn't always choose to free them. She can choose to keep the dagger, if you leave it to her.

That said, I gave it to her. I just can't say no, especially when she says she wants to keep it.

Edit: Side note, new Snacking story should be posted very soon (tonight or tomorrow I think?). Cheers.

[Apathy1989]

lol I love Isabela.

Just finished MotA with triple dualist party - femhawk, isabela and tallis. Flirted with Tallis at every chance, Isabela was sometimes hostile to it, eventually warmed up to sharing, but always funny. Also alot of dialogue between them as they are polar opposites (at least in act 2 when I played it) where Isabela cares for no one.

I liked the line "Hopefully the Qunari will remember this down the line".