6837 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I don't think I would add it to Snacking, since that's a story about Isabela and Hawke together. If I was going to write it, it would likely be its own story since I really don't think I can do the entirety justice with a short story here or there. We're talking about a woman's very exciting life, full of drama and intrigue; even my longest stories so far have been only small slices out of their lives.

I did come up with a title for it though - "How I Met My Lover". I thought it was both appropriate and a little funny, especially since it would likely be Isabela telling it to Hawke late at night before bed.

Or you could have Isabela remembering her late husband, her many lovers and comparing it to Hawke and how things are different now that she's together with her. Not from the sex angle but more from the whole relationship thing.

[hoorayforicecream]

Ok, since we haven't had a lot of activity lately, here's an art dump for everyone.

Pirate Princess Power, Make up!


A lovely piece by Draggeta:


And finally... somebody interrupting just before the good part:



On a somewhat related note, writing has begun on the next Snacking story, though it may shape up to be another big one. And, if anyone is interested, I've also started an Isabela-themed Tumblr, where you may ask Isabela any questions on your mind, and she will answer in a regular fashion. If there's any interest, please head on by. Cheers.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 11 novembre 2011 - 06:39 .

[TobiTobsen]

The first one actually looks like some kind of Sailormoon transformation... or so I heard

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 11 novembre 2011 - 07:31 .

[hoorayforicecream]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The first one actually looks like some kind of Sailormoon transformation... or so I heard

Sailor Venus, actually. There's actually a whole set of transformations.

[TobiTobsen]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

The first one actually looks like some kind of Sailormoon transformation... or so I heard

Sailor Venus, actually. There's actually a whole set of transformations.

Aha! It's been an age since I watched that show as a little kid with my best friend and his sister.

[Master Shiori]

They're great. I especially like the last one with Hawke.

Nice find hooray!

[Wentletrap]

Wow, thanks for the links!

[Quething]

You know, Izzy as Minako works surprisingly well. More so for the manga, maybe, but wow. Right down to showing up in the canon before the main character does. And the leadership thing...

Though we never really see much of that in DA2, which is a shame. Or even in fanfic, which is unsurprising, but equally a shame. Outside of Hawke, de facto leader by PC fiat, the two most capable and experienced leaders in the group are Isabela and Aveline. They have actual earned ranks they can put before their names, they've got years under their belts of keeping people alive by telling them what to do. And Aveline at least you see in action in the actual game. But there's never really a moment where we get to see Isabela shine as the raider captain and pirate queen she is; not even a brief statement of absolute loyalty like we got from her quartermaster in DA:O. And fanfic always puts, like, Fenris or Varric or Anders in charge if Hawke is out of commission.

[hoorayforicecream]

Quething wrote...

You know, Izzy as Minako works surprisingly well. More so for the manga, maybe, but wow. Right down to showing up in the canon before the main character does. And the leadership thing...

Though we never really see much of that in DA2, which is a shame. Or even in fanfic, which is unsurprising, but equally a shame. Outside of Hawke, de facto leader by PC fiat, the two most capable and experienced leaders in the group are Isabela and Aveline. They have actual earned ranks they can put before their names, they've got years under their belts of keeping people alive by telling them what to do. And Aveline at least you see in action in the actual game. But there's never really a moment where we get to see Isabela shine as the raider captain and pirate queen she is; not even a brief statement of absolute loyalty like we got from her quartermaster in DA:O. And fanfic always puts, like, Fenris or Varric or Anders in charge if Hawke is out of commission.

I'm changing that in the next Snacking story. Just so's you know.

[Quething]

Well, I shall look forward to that then.

So I know we've talked about Friend/Rival a lot, but I have a new point of curiosity. It seems like most hardcore Anders or Merrill fans, like the folks who hang out in their threads and romance them every time, really loathe their respective Rivalries, often to the point of considering fans to be horrible people for ever taking those paths. Whereas I get the sense that a lot of the Fenris thread prefers the Rivalmance, and they all seem to enjoy playing around with both to a lesser or greater degree.

I've often thought there were sort of two categories of DA2 romances, mage and not-mage, with a lot of similarities in the writing and theme within each pair. And it seems like that's one of them; people here seem pretty okay with both paths, as far as I can tell. We talk sometimes about how the Rivalmance seems incomplete or underwritten, and I get the sense there's a general preference for the Friend path (I'm noticing in fanfic that she always gets Castillon's boat), but I've never seen anybody go "rarr SMASH RIVAL PATH" or anything. I mean, I admit it squicks me a bit, particularly with a dudeHawke, but even then I have a Hawke or two who take it, and it's more the execution than the basic idea that bothers me.

[hoorayforicecream]

There's a couple of reasons off the top of my head for why there's so little rivalry for Isabela.

#0. Friendship is the default 'good' state for everyone. Lots of people see rivalry points as a negative, especially on the first playthrough, which greatly influences how we view the game world.

#1. By default, most people go friendship. Rivalry Isabela is pretty difficult, 30,000+ views of my Isabela FAQ are a testament to that. Rivalry romance is even more difficult. Isabela's pretty normally disposed towards friendship anyway.

#2. Rivalry is underwritten, and the decisions that generate rivalry points aren't always consistent. This can cause some pretty weird choices.

#3. Isabela's very much pro-freedom and individuality, and a lot of people identify with that. Rivaling her means acting like a preachy do-gooder, and most folks don't identify with that.

Plus I just can't say no to this face.

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...



Plus I just can't say no to this face.

I think that's the crux of the matter. 


But you have a point about it being difficult to rival Isabela do to choices you have to make. I don't think most people would be ok with letting a child murderer be taken into custody if they know he'll like just walk away again.

Also, Isabela does display many good qualities on the friendship path, like being protective of Merrill, so it's not like it's mandatory to change her for the better. 

[ladyshamen]

Hello Isabela experts! A friend of mine asked me to make a MHawke for him to romance Isabela with. ( He has MAJOR cc issues ) I have not made a PC to romance her yet. Can I please get your opinions before handing this guy over. Thank you in advance!

[ladyshamen]

 oops! Double posted.

Modifié par ladyshamen, 16 novembre 2011 - 12:09 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@ladyshamen - Not knowing your friend and his preferences in a hero, I'll just give my personal opinion. I think he's quite good-looking - I especially like the eyes and the ink. And he has just the right amount of beard to tickle. Nicely done!

[Zjarcal]

Master Shiori wrote...

But you have a point about it being difficult to rival Isabela do to choices you have to make. I don't think most people would be ok with letting a child murderer be taken into custody if they know he'll like just walk away again.

You don't have to let him live to rival Isabela. It's really easy to max her rivalry without doing stuff like that (I know this since I did it).

I think a lot of you have this notion that rivalring Isabela requires to do all those "horrible" choices or that you have to act all "preachy", when that's hardly the case (though acting preachy does make the process of maxing the rivalry much easier). It does require being occassionally rude to her, but eh, I certainly don't mind that since many of her actions rub me the wrong way..

I disagree about rivalry being underwritten, at least the normal rivalry. The rivalmance perhaps is underwritten but I haven't played that (though if the romance scene is identical then yeah, that's a point for it being underwritten).

The real hard part about Isabela's rivalry is that damn +20 friendship bonus you get for simply flirting...  ... I wish that the flirting could be done in a slightly different way to get rivalry instead (where's the hate sex damnit!). 

Generally speaking though, I think most people do indeed prefer the friendship paths as they have the misconception that "rivalry = bad". Hell even the wiki gives warnings in quest guides "Be careful! That decision will lead to rivalry with X companion".  Tis annoying how that misconception floats around so much.

Quething wrote...

So I know we've talked about Friend/Rival a lot, but I have a new point of curiosity. It seems like most hardcore Anders or Merrill fans, like the folks who hang out in their threads and romance them every time, really loathe their respective Rivalries, often to the point of considering fans to be horrible people for ever taking those paths. Whereas I get the sense that a lot of the Fenris thread prefers the Rivalmance, and they all seem to enjoy playing around with both to a lesser or greater degree.

I actually thought the rivalry path was liked by most Anders' fans. Guess I haven't been in that thread a lot.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 16 novembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[TEWR]

So I know we've talked about Friend/Rival a lot, but I have a new point of curiosity. It seems like most hardcore Anders or Merrill fans, like the folks who hang out in their threads and romance them every time, really loathe their respective Rivalries, often to the point of considering fans to be horrible people for ever taking those paths. Whereas I get the sense that a lot of the Fenris thread prefers the Rivalmance, and they all seem to enjoy playing around with both to a lesser or greater degree.

Yea, I really do abhor the rivalry path for Merrill. It strikes me as just being awful to Merrill's character. Even the brief snippet in the ability tree says that she can only really trust herself if she's Rivaled, and that's just wrong on so many levels for me. Not only that, but it's like I'm agreeing with Marethari, whom I can't stand one bit and whom the games point out as being wrong.

As for Fenris, I don't really go about doing Rivalry, but not out of some notion that Rivalry is inherently bad. Friendship helps him begin to move past the past, while Rivalry keeps him embittered towards it.

That's my take on it, and it seems like Friendship is the one that makes him begin to treat mages better and not Rivalry, even if both sides will get him to side with the mages if you get them high enough.

Since I can't play a pro-Templar person in DAII because of how bad I see the story as, I go Friendship. Though let the record state that I have done two Rivalries before.

I liked the Rivalry path, but Friendship was just one that I liked more.

Oh, and as for Anders, I think the reason why people go friendship is because that even if you're pro-mage yet anti-Anders, he treats you like you're anti-mage.

That's at least why I can never Rival Anders anymore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Having completed most of a rivalry with Isabella and most of a rivalrymance with Merrill I can say I think they both work well and that both of them are better for it. Being rivals with Merrill is pretty easy for me, in fact it comes more naturally so it's what has happene in 2 out 3 playhroughs. All I needed to do was disporve of demons and blood magic.

Isabela's was a little trickier but pretty straightforward once you get the hang of it. She dislikes helping people. So creating a Hawke that gets angry at her for her carless irresponsibility was not too hard for me. He and her didn't get along but by the end I think she's a much better person. She seems much happier about doing the right thing. I've never let her keep the boat from Castillion but while she doesn't mind in either case, she's actually happier about putting a stop to his evil in one. Not only that she actually seems eager to stop the Right of Annulment and save all the innocent mages in the end game rather than standing by Hawke mostly for his or her sake.

I actually felt a little dissapointed in my friendshipmance playthrough prior in comparison, although she does grow on the friendship path too so it's not too big of a difference. And you get to get along with better her as a friend too.

Anders is the one I've had more trouble being rivals with, which is ironic because he's the one I find needs it the most in my playthroughs. I cannot tolerate keeping friended Anders around in the Final Battle, but most everything prior to that requires ignoring a lot of legitiate issues he has to his face.

I think the problem is the rivalry seems to suffer from a a bit of a conflcted identity. Initally I figured (as with many others) that it means being a jerk to someone because you hate them, but that nots necessarily the case. You could still be called friends with them even if you disagree with their agenda. The problem is both options seem to give you rivalry points and it's sometimes almost impossible to tell if the option you chose is something that will earn you rivalry points but a pleasant conversation or friendship points thereby undermining your progress.

When I first playe the game I didn't want to be mean so I tried to be friends with everyone. This didn't work out as Isabela abaonded me and Merrill ran into this weird bug where she ended up being my rival anyway despite me giving her the Arulin'holm she wanted. this created a discontinuity around her so I felt incredibly awkward talking to her afterward. I wasn't sure whether I was supposed to feel like she was a rival or a friend.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[ladyshamen]

Thank you whykik, he said he wanted a 'Han Solo' type. Smart a-- with a good heart. I was trying to make him look ready to jump a ship with Isabela and sail off into the sunset:) I have GOT to make a Hawke to romance her myself, I'm thinking about a FemHawke tho.

[whykikyouwhy]

@ladyshamen - Not that I'm biased or anything (not that I would ever admit that here), but a F!Hawke is the way to go. Just take a gander at that 3rd pic hoorayforicecream posted about 5 days ago (up toward the top of this page)...that's a sharp looking and super sexy couple. You can't go wrong with that combination.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:38 .

[Quething]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh, and as for Anders, I think the reason why people go friendship is because that even if you're pro-mage yet anti-Anders, he treats you like you're anti-mage.

That's at least why I can never Rival Anders anymore.

I had that issue a lot at first, but now I just figure... he's crazy. This is a guy who, by the end of Act III, genuinely believes that it's mages vs mundanes, and one must fall; that it's good, or even possible, for mages to win a fight where the battle lines are drawn between "those with magic" and "those without." It seems perfectly reasonable to me that he would interpret a completely pro-mage Hawke as totally anti-mage and belligerent and the enemy just because said Hawke disagrees with his methods or is suspicious of Justice. He is the cause of mages, remember? If you don't agree 100% with him you don't agree with the cause of mages. Regardless of how many you've protected or set free. And you don't actually have to be anti-mage in his midstage or endstage QB; there are plenty of dialog options to make your disagreement with him about Justice/Vengeance and Anders' obsession instead.

ladyshamen wrote...

Thank you whykik, he said he wanted a 'Han Solo' type. Smart a-- with a good heart. I was trying to make him look ready to jump a ship with Isabela and sail off into the sunset I have GOT to make a Hawke to romance her myself, I'm thinking about a FemHawke tho.

MainHawke would do that in a hot second. I had to Circle Beth, despite it being slightly out of character, because there was no other way she'd stay in Kirkwall more than ten minutes past Leandra's funeral otherwise. It'd be like "so about that ship you keep wanting, Isabela. Let's steal one. Now."

(By the way I'm going to strongly second the recommendation to go with a female Hawke. )

Anyway I like him, he does have that roguish-but-sweet look to him, very up Izzy's alley.

As for the rest, I'm not sure about the Rivalry in terms of making her a better person; as someone here said far upthread, I'd feel better if I could feel sure she wanted to change because it was right and not because it would make Hawke happier. One reason I'm generally more comfortable with the Rival path as a friendship, as it lacks that "I want to be someone you'd want to be with" sentiment. The Friend path is a bit weird in that way too, though, I guess. She sort of decides to let Hawke be her moral compass and trust that what she says is right, is right, which might bother me too if Hawke was a less passive laissez-faire sort of person.

[Master Shiori]

Zjarcal wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

But you have a point about it being difficult to rival Isabela do to choices you have to make. I don't think most people would be ok with letting a child murderer be taken into custody if they know he'll like just walk away again.

You don't have to let him live to rival Isabela. It's really easy to max her rivalry without doing stuff like that (I know this since I did it).

I think a lot of you have this notion that rivalring Isabela requires to do all those "horrible" choices or that you have to act all "preachy", when that's hardly the case (though acting preachy does make the process of maxing the rivalry much easier). It does require being occassionally rude to her, but eh, I certainly don't mind that since many of her actions rub me the wrong way..

I disagree about rivalry being underwritten, at least the normal rivalry. The rivalmance perhaps is underwritten but I haven't played that (though if the romance scene is identical then yeah, that's a point for it being underwritten).

The real hard part about Isabela's rivalry is that damn +20 friendship bonus you get for simply flirting...  ... I wish that the flirting could be done in a slightly different way to get rivalry instead (where's the hate sex damnit!). 

Generally speaking though, I think most people do indeed prefer the friendship paths as they have the misconception that "rivalry = bad". Hell even the wiki gives warnings in quest guides "Be careful! That decision will lead to rivalry with X companion".  Tis annoying how that misconception floats around so much.

I know.

I was just giving an example of a choice most people probably wouldn't be ok with. As for getting +friendhip points on rivalry, I still get them from both flirting and sometimes even from gifts. It's probably high time for Bioware to fix that. 

I don't think rivalry is bad. It's just that my Hawke is the type of character who is more ok with actions that give friendship from Isabela than rivalry, so friendlymance is practicaly a natural state for them.

But yeah, the best thing about DA2 is that there are no "good" or "bad" choices or actions when it comes to companions. You never lose anything by going rivalry or friendship. It simply comes down to what you prefer.

[ladyshamen]

whykik and Quething, Thank you for your input! Will put the guy on disc and give him away. Yes, that is a good looking couple up there. Now I MUST go make a sexy lady Hawke for Isabela. I always thought she liked women better than men. From what I know about her so far, I would say she would have a harder time getting close to, and admitting her feelings to a man. That's just IMO. Will be checking back in --

[hoorayforicecream]

I never said that rivalry is bad, but it is treated as such by many people. I like rivalry Isabela, but I don't like not romancing her. The romance just feels off if I do - it doesn't feel like they're really that attracted to each other. I love the scene at the end of act 3, but act 2 just doesn't feel right to me. The relationship feels disjointed because of it..

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I never said that rivalry is bad, but it is treated as such by many people. I like rivalry Isabela, but I don't like not romancing her. The romance just feels off if I do - it doesn't feel like they're really that attracted to each other. I love the scene at the end of act 3, but act 2 just doesn't feel right to me. The relationship feels disjointed because of it..

I think it's mostly because the love scene is the same for both rivalry and friendship. Her questioning beliefs quest for rivalry in act 2 is fine, as is most of the dialogue. It's when it comes to romance itself that it's the same playfull stuff you get from friendship, instead of a more heated "hatesex" one would expect from people who are having an argument about something and want to blow off steam.

Which is surprising since other LI's do get a modified scene. The one for Fenris in particular works really well on rivalry.

Maybe Sheryl wrote Isabela pirmarily as a friendlymance and they didn't have time to expand on her rivalry romance stuff properly? Though the non romance rivalry dialogue was good.