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[hoorayforicecream]

Master Shiori wrote...

I think it's mostly because the love scene is the same for both rivalry and friendship. Her questioning beliefs quest for rivalry in act 2 is fine, as is most of the dialogue. It's when it comes to romance itself that it's the same playfull stuff you get from friendship, instead of a more heated "hatesex" one would expect from people who are having an argument about something and want to blow off steam.

Which is surprising since other LI's do get a modified scene. The one for Fenris in particular works really well on rivalry.

Maybe Sheryl wrote Isabela pirmarily as a friendlymance and they didn't have time to expand on her rivalry romance stuff properly? Though the non romance rivalry dialogue was good.

It isn't just that though. There's opportunities to flirt in the friendly conversations, and there weren't any in the rivalry ones. The recycled love scene is the most egregious, but the lack of flirtation really made me feel like it was completely disjointed. It feels like You're boring. > You're boring. > You're boring. > I LOVE YOU NOW. It just didn't feel like a natural progression to me, while the friendship romance did.

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It isn't just that though. There's opportunities to flirt in the friendly conversations, and there weren't any in the rivalry ones. The recycled love scene is the most egregious, but the lack of flirtation really made me feel like it was completely disjointed. It feels like You're boring. > You're boring. > You're boring. > I LOVE YOU NOW. It just didn't feel like a natural progression to me, while the friendship romance did.

True enough, though I don't think it's really "I LOVE YOU NOW" until her last questioning beliefs in act 3. Until then I think Isabela is still conflicted about her feelings towards Hawke, especially after the end of Act 2.

But yeah, the romance does play out more naturally as friendlymance, whioch suits me just fine since I prefer that kind of relationship with Isabela anyway.

Her final rivalmance questioning beliefs in Act 3 is pretty good though. Probably the only reason I'd bother doing a rivalmance in the first place.

[Quething]

I've been trying to wrap my head around the Rival romance enough to fic it out properly. I think part of my problem is just that it is so difficult to get Rival points with her compared to how easy it is to get Friend points. With Fenris, you can do a fair amount of anti-slaver stuff in his presence and still Rival him by being hardcore pro-mage, or do a lot of pro-mage stuff in his presence and still Friend him by being anti-slaver, or whatever. With Merrill you can pump her up to 90% Friend and count that toward your Rivalry when you deny her the arulin'holm. So it's easy to play out a complex relationship, and see how the LI might both respect/like and be deeply vexed by Hawke at the same time.

It's easy to do the same with Isabela on the Friend side. From the moment of recruitment she never leaves main!Hawke's side. Main!Hawke saves the werewolf guy on the Wounded Coast, lets that aprostitute go to the templars, etc etc, she gets little +5 Rivals all over the place. I still max her Friendship by the middle of Act II. It feels really organic and I can see how Hawke is both interesting to her and also influencing her to be a better person.

On the Rival side, though, I have to game her a bit, avoid taking her on missions where I do stuff she likes, go really out of my way to dodge all those easy +15s and +20s because there's just not enough red to balance them out and still maintain some semblance of consistent roleplay. So I'm not seeing a complex relationship, not getting that sense of occasional connection outside the main dialogs that I get when Rivalling other LIs.

[hoorayforicecream]

Master Shiori wrote...

True enough, though I don't think it's really "I LOVE YOU NOW" until her last questioning beliefs in act 3. Until then I think Isabela is still conflicted about her feelings towards Hawke, especially after the end of Act 2.

But yeah, the romance does play out more naturally as friendlymance, whioch suits me just fine since I prefer that kind of relationship with Isabela anyway.

Her final rivalmance questioning beliefs in Act 3 is pretty good though. Probably the only reason I'd bother doing a rivalmance in the first place.

Yes, I do love her 100% rivalry questioning beliefs in Act 3 as well. The problem for me is that act 2 generally sours it for me. With the friendship path, you can see a relationship building. There's flirtation, and there's joking, and there's sharing.

With the rivalry path, several of the other things... the banter about sleeping with Hawke every night, the visiting after Leandra's death, the love scene, etc. all don't feel right to me. They're pretty much opposed to Isabela's attitude during her 50% questioning beliefs, or when you give her a gift. She finds Hawke boring, and there isn't the option to flirt with her, but she's sleeping with Hawke regularly, and she comes by to comfort when Leandra dies? It just doesn't feel like it's believable.

Edit: To Quething, there's one way that can make it make sense, but requires both some metagaming, *and* possibly some developer console - start with her as a friend all through act 2, then switch to rivalry in act 3. Hawke feels so strongly about her betrayal over the tome, and the subsequent abandonment for 3 years that when she returns, she goes all rival. I'm not sure that there's enough rivalry points available in act 3 to do so, but it would make some sense to me.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Zjarcal]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Edit: To Quething, there's one way that can make it make sense, but requires both some metagaming, *and* possibly some developer console - start with her as a friend all through act 2, then switch to rivalry in act 3. Hawke feels so strongly about her betrayal over the tome, and the subsequent abandonment for 3 years that when she returns, she goes all rival. I'm not sure that there's enough rivalry points available in act 3 to do so, but it would make some sense to me.

That's exactly what I intend to do for my canon run (though not on a romance). It feels a lot more natural and is actually a very similar development to how I felt about Isabela through the game (love... hate... then love again). And yes, the console would be required, though I wouldn't really call it metagaming per se (well maybe a bit since you'd have to avoid maxing out her friendship, otherwise you'd be locked and even the console couldn't do the switch).

It's a shame the game doesn't give you a chance to do something a la Merrill's mirror tool, where you can instantly flip the relationship from friendship to rivalry. It's why I would like for the player to also be able to asign their own disposition towards companions (and not just have the companions react to the PC).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:56 .

[Quething]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Edit: To Quething, there's one way that can make it make sense, but requires both some metagaming, *and* possibly some developer console - start with her as a friend all through act 2, then switch to rivalry in act 3. Hawke feels so strongly about her betrayal over the tome, and the subsequent abandonment for 3 years that when she returns, she goes all rival. I'm not sure that there's enough rivalry points available in act 3 to do so, but it would make some sense to me.

There aren't. I've tried it. But yes, that's exactly what I do with mageHawke. Friend until the Tome secret comes out, then console to Rival. It does work pretty well and is easy to justify with that Hawke's personality.

But I'd still like to see a relationship that just flowed naturally from the beginning and not one that required a major change of direction/dynamic halfway through, you know?

(And I agree, the "tiger" banter is particularly out of place, but I think the post-ATR scene still works. Whether or not she enjoys Hawke's company most of the time, this is still a comrade-in-arms who cares about her and whose mother just died. Izzy's a kind person, I think she'd still want to offer some sort of comfort if she could.)

Zjarcal wrote...

It's a shame the game doesn't give you a chance to do something a la Merrill's mirror tool, where you can instantly flip the relationship from friendship to rivalry. It's why I would like for the player to also be able to asign their own disposition towards companions (and not just have the companions react to the PC).

That's a really good idea. I've kicked around before the idea that we should get different dominant tones for different groups (one for Chantry, one for authority figures, one for little kids, one for each primary companion, etc), but something that's more focused on the relationship than Hawke's personality would be much stronger.

Modifié par Quething, 17 novembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[Zjarcal]

Quething wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

It's a shame the game doesn't give you a chance to do something a la Merrill's mirror tool, where you can instantly flip the relationship from friendship to rivalry. It's why I would like for the player to also be able to asign their own disposition towards companions (and not just have the companions react to the PC).

That's a really good idea. I've kicked around before the idea that we should get different dominant tones for different groups (one for Chantry, one for authority figures, one for little kids, one for each primary companion, etc), but something that's more focused on the relationship than Hawke's personality would be much stronger.

A bit off topic since it's not Isabela related, but yes, the game recognizing and recording the disposition towards the different factions and ideals presented, would be much better than simply having a dominant tone. It would be great for banters where the PC intervenes, since for instance if you've been pro-Mage freedom, the game could recognize that and trigger an appropriate line. I'm not a big fan of the game playing dialogue for my charater with no input from me, but if it's going to be done, then at least base it on the decisions I've made for consistency. Simply basing it on tone actually lead to a few horrible moments for me, like saying "recognize your mage?" while delivering the remains of that mage... ugh.

I'm not sure how the "PC disposition towards companions" could be applied to be honest. Would it be a slider you can freely move at any time? Or maybe at key moments during conversations a special icon could show up (maybe with the rivalry or friendship icons) where you can do your own rival/friend flips, affecting only the PC's disposition, not the companions (although it could also affect them). It's something I really wish the devs would consider for the future.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 novembre 2011 - 03:01 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Hmm... a question. What do you folks think Isabela's feelings toward Anders are, and vice versa? They seem to have fairly conflicting viewpoints. Any thoughts?

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Hmm... a question. What do you folks think Isabela's feelings toward Anders are, and vice versa? They seem to have fairly conflicting viewpoints. Any thoughts?

I think she realizes how dangerous his convictions can be, and is trying to make him aware of possible consequences (their conversation about justice in the real world makes me think this is the case). I believe Isabela and Anders can agree that everyone deserves to be free, mages included. It's just that, in order to acomplish that, Anders is ready to go to lengths that Isabela, and other companions, aren't comfortable with.

For his part, Anders probably sees Isabela as he himself was before he met Justice and is trying to force to her to take active hand in the events that are transpiring. So there is certain tension between them, but it's nowhere near the intensity of Anders/Fenris or Anders/Sebastian conflicts.

So, the short version of Isabela/Anders relationship would probably be:

"I can see where this cause of yours is likely to lead, and it's not a pretty place. I'll give you a fair warning and wash my hands of the whole thing afterwards. It's your funeral.."

[whykikyouwhy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Hmm... a question. What do you folks think Isabela's feelings toward Anders are, and vice versa? They seem to have fairly conflicting viewpoints. Any thoughts?

I have to agree with Master Shiori on the blend of understanding and conflict between the two.

But add to that the element of disapproval from Anders. I think as we delve into Acts 2 and 3, Anders loses more of himself to his anger and Justice's influence, thus he loses his mirth, his ability to enjoy life (and to see the pleasure of things like magic tricks at the Pearl). For all of his tendency to drag Hawke into dangerous situations ("please go get this crystallized urine for me"), I don't think that, at heart, he wants to put Hawke in jeopardy, unless it's an ends justifies the means sort of thing. So he more than likely will see the peril anyone else places the Champion in as inappropriate, wrong. Since Isabela does her fair share of this, I'm sure there is some scorn and disdain placed toward the pirate.

So too, if Hawke is a mage, I could easily see Anders slipping into a "no one else would understand Hawke unless they too know firsthand of the mage's plight" - no one else would be good enough. I can't think of any actual evidence in-game to support this, but I feel that his intensity, his single-mindedness toward the cause would narrow his vision in other things, and thus make that sentiment possible.

I think as he embraces Vengeance more, Isabela will feel some pity for him, but without a strong emotional attachment there, she might be inclined to shrug and move along on her own way...taking Hawke with her.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Isn't Isabella the only one that Anders doesn't complain about if you bring your love interest into the sewers near the end of the game?

[Quething]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Isn't Isabella the only one that Anders doesn't complain about if you bring your love interest into the sewers near the end of the game?

Yeah. I agree with Hooray on that, I don't think he takes her seriously as a LI. He's not threatened because it's Isabela, she'll flit along to someone new soon enough and he'll sweep in to show Hawke what real love and devotion looks like. And she's not a blood mage or magister-obsessed so she's not poisoning Hawke with any undue influence in the meantime, so no reason for him to freak on that account either.

I think probably their relationship depends a bit on Isabela's Friend/Rival status. There's those two conversations about the Tome in Act III that I swear to Andraste have got to be bugged. In one, he's friendly, approving; he's proud of her for bringing the Tome back and teases her about being less selfish than she pretends to be. In the other he's vicious and condemnatory, lambasting her for her frivolous irresponsibility. Obviously Anders is more than a little erratic in his opinions, but I can't believe those two conversations are supposed to coexist in the same playthrough. I suspect the intention was that Friended Isabela, who sort of subtly becomes more moral over time, has a somewhat equitable relationship with Anders; they're not close or anything, but she believes in freedom and does the right thing when it counts, and he gives her free healing and has a reasonable sense of humor, so they're generally pluses in each other's books. Meanwhile Rival Izzy, who's kind of reactionary and snappish about her morality as a result of being lectured all the time, irritates Anders with her feckless, dangerous-to-bystanders lifestyle and gets all pompous at her, so of course she resents him in kind.

I do wonder if his opinion on her isn't a bit more complex even than that, though. She's who he used to be, and he's said he misses that, that sometimes he wishes he could go back. That usually makes for an interesting mix of envy and disdain even on top of Anders' other issues in relating to people.

As for her, I'm not sure she cares so much if he self-destructs; actually warning him off his path (or at least trying to) is more of a Varric thing. I think she just wants him to shut up about the Cause for five minutes because everyone in the group is a lot more fun when they're not talking about mages and templars.

[hoorayforicecream]

I considered the same issues Quething did, but I actually am perfectly fine with the seeming-dichotomy of the conversations. The way I see it, in Act 3, Anders is becoming progressively more unhinged. He runs very hot and cold, and that sort of pendulum swinging attitude is reflected in his talks with other characters too - Aveline and Varric more notably. I saw his conversations with Isabela as more of a 'today he's jolly-old-Anders again' and 'today he's all Vengeful' type deal.

I'm interested in the kind of interplay there would be in a situation involving Isabela (romanced), and Anders (not romanced). We know that Anders is dismissive of Isabela's relationship (side dish comment), but what would Isabela think about Anders' views on their relationship? Would she just ignore him? Would she care what he thought? Like many, I think that Anders ends up in love with Hawke whether Hawke decides to romance him or not. How does Isabela feel (Act 3) about this man who is somewhat off his rocker, but clearly holding a torch for someone she cares about deeply?

Thoughts?

[Master Shiori]

She would likely just ignore him, especially since Hawke clearly told him she's not interested. I don't see Isabela displaying jealousy unless both Hawke and the potential lover display mutual interest in one another, like Tallis did in MotA.

[whykikyouwhy]

I think she would be wary of Anders. Perhaps she would sense how much his downward spiral can and will affect those around him, and of everyone in the group, she would want most to protect Hawke - in line with the whole "having one's back" theme especially. She would be outwardly dismissive, sure, but she'd keep a weathered eye on him, so to speak.

[Quething]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The way I see it, in Act 3, Anders is becoming progressively more unhinged. He runs very hot and cold, and that sort of pendulum swinging attitude is reflected in his talks with other characters too - Aveline and Varric more notably.

It's the same conversation twice, though. You'd think she'd point it out, even if he doesn't notice ("we went over this last week, remember? You were impressed?") It's not just that one conversation, either, it's also the one with Merrill where he's talking about killing/almost killing Elle, which is much more blatant, which makes me think that his whole banter tree is slightly buggy (it's not like bugging out the banter is an uncommon problem. Poor Fenmancers...).

Either way, though, I imagine it's true he does offer her a pretty inconsistent attitude by Act III. He's even inconsistent to Hawke by then (and to Varric, who... gets his pillow, so maybe he loved him most after all?). But Izzy's a sailor, she knows temperamental weather. Planning isn't exactly in her nature, but yeah, I agree with WKYW, she was expecting something and was making a point of being ready to back Hawke when it happened (certainly she seems the least surprised and thrown when the Chantry goes up).

[Maria Caliban]

Are people debating rivalmance vs friendship romance? I want in on the action!

Quething wrote...

On the Rival side, though, I have to game her a bit, avoid taking her on missions where I do stuff she likes, go really out of my way to dodge all those easy +15s and +20s because there's just not enough red to balance them out and still maintain some semblance of consistent roleplay. So I'm not seeing a complex relationship, not getting that sense of occasional connection outside the main dialogs that I get when Rivalling other LIs.

I can say that other than that big +25 Friendship you get at the beginning of Act II just for initiating the romance, Isabela almost always gave my Hawke Rival points.

It just depends on how you conceptualize your Hawke. Mine was a complete goody-two shoes. Selfless, polite, law abiding, and she never even asked for coin.

Once I stopped panicking whenever a rivalry point popped up, I found it very organic.

[Batlass8]

As much as I like the friend/rival dichotomy (and infinitely prefer it to the endless courting and dance of diplomacy the Warden had to engage in with EVERYONE in DA), I wish it [somehow] could be like the Paragon/Renegade paths in Mass Effect where you can come across as a bit of each. (Although even Mass Effect shoves you into a little box at the end anyway). I've finally picked up the controller on my canon!Hawke playthrough again, and I'm discovering that she let go of her snarky, selfish, and carefree attitude after Carver died, converting into a completely serious and boring paragon though she's slowly regaining her sense of humor. We'll see how that holds up in the face of Leandra's death though. My point is that if it weren't for the +25 Friendship points flirting with Isabela nets you, her relationship with Hawke would probably be dead-center... and that would be too bad, because an unromanced, dead-center Isabela leaves you after Act 2.

Re: Isabela/Anders relationship: I'm not sure what I think. She probably runs hot and cold towards Anders depending on whether or not he's running hot or cold. If she knew him before he got together with Justice though, Isabela has the best measure of anyone as to how changed he is. Her three year vacation from Kirkwall also probably added some perspective. I can see Anders slipping slowly into batty, violent dedication with occasional flare-ups that his friends label 'a bad day' and ignore. But over three years, that decent into all-consuming rage is going to build to a noticeable point, and I can see Isabela coming back to Kirkwall and wondering why no one else sees how much Anders has changed. Maybe she doesn't say anything, but she's definitely watching/waiting for things to... explode.

[hoorayforicecream]

Batlass8 wrote...

Re: Isabela/Anders relationship: I'm not sure what I think. She probably runs hot and cold towards Anders depending on whether or not he's running hot or cold. If she knew him before he got together with Justice though, Isabela has the best measure of anyone as to how changed he is. Her three year vacation from Kirkwall also probably added some perspective. I can see Anders slipping slowly into batty, violent dedication with occasional flare-ups that his friends label 'a bad day' and ignore. But over three years, that decent into all-consuming rage is going to build to a noticeable point, and I can see Isabela coming back to Kirkwall and wondering why no one else sees how much Anders has changed. Maybe she doesn't say anything, but she's definitely watching/waiting for things to... explode.

I don't know about that too much. I mean... they may have known each other, but I think it'd be more of an in-passing acquaintance thing than anything else. Do you think that Isabela slept with Anders in the past? I actually think she didn't. She remembers stories about her past lovers very clearly, but the banter in act 1 was much more vague ( "I keep thinking I know you from somewhere" and "Oh, were you the runaway mage...?"). I think that something as memorable as a 'lightning thing' wouldn't slip her mind unless it wasn't being done to her directly. They were both at a brothel, which leads me to believe it may just have been word of mouth.

The reason I bring it up is because of a scene I wrote recently that I wasn't as sure about. I feel like I have a good handle on Isabela's character, and Aveline's character, but what emerged was a conversation between Aveline and Anders about Isabela's relationship with Hawke. I didn't think I had Anders pegged as well as Aveline or Isabela, so I was hoping to mine the collective knowledge for some insight.

[Maria Caliban]

Isabela's ability to recall any partners might be dulled by drinking large quantities of alcohol.

Besides, everyone knows that between DA:O and DA 2, every person's facial features were changed such that no one could recognize them.

[Quething]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I can say that other than that big +25 Friendship you get at the beginning of Act II just for initiating the romance, Isabela almost always gave my Hawke Rival points.

It just depends on how you conceptualize your Hawke. Mine was a complete goody-two shoes. Selfless, polite, law abiding, and she never even asked for coin.

See, and I had one of those and Izzy loved her. 

I think she did sleep with Anders. She says of the electricity thing, "that was nice," which sounds like firsthand experience to me. Despite her instant, down-to-the-dialog recollection of Anders and Leliana, I don't know if she finds all her partners that memorable (the Warden's presence counts as extenuating circumstances), so it works for me. But you could also figure they were both involved in the same small orgy, or some similar event where she wouldn't be expected to know everyone involved.

[Abispa]

My problem with Isabela is that I have to metagame a rivalry romance with her (I prefer the rivalries in this game). Either I play a promiscuous lying Hawke (instant snuggle-bunnies in Act 2), or I never earn enough points either way to stop her from running away. I guess I need to stop Fenris from ripping the serial killer's heart out or something.

Modifié par Abispa, 23 novembre 2011 - 01:15 .

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

I think she did sleep with Anders.

I don't think she does much sleeping. At least not in the same room.

[Maria Caliban]

Quething wrote...
See, and I had one of those and Izzy loved her. 

Did you yell at her for selling you out for a boat?

[Abispa]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Quething wrote...
See, and I had one of those and Izzy loved her. 

Did you yell at her for selling you out for a boat?

You don't have to yell. Any of the three "you sold me out" options lead to rivalry points. I can still get a friendship romance started after yelling at her, so I always do.