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[Quething]

Oh, that's not what I meant! They were two separate thoughts, sorry. I meant that Isabela's clearly the most desirable sort of person to be, but I'm not sure if you wrote it that way because you love her or I'm reading it that way because I do.

[hoorayforicecream]

Quething wrote...

Oh, that's not what I meant! They were two separate thoughts, sorry. I meant that Isabela's clearly the most desirable sort of person to be, but I'm not sure if you wrote it that way because you love her or I'm reading it that way because I do.

I don't think that's how I wrote her. I actually thought that Varric or Bethany were the most desirable persons to be, but even then it's not about who you want to be, but who you are. And there's a lot of truth in the various personalities as they come across on the forum. A lot of people may (wish to) see themselves as Isabela, but others would call many of them Anders, Fenris, or Sebastian. But who wouldn't want to be a sexy, adventurous pirate? 

[Wentletrap]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

For those interested, I've posted a short story to my Isabela-themed tumblr here, based on my interpretation of the story behind her blades Heartbreaker and Backstabber. If you're interested in the blog at all, you can read the fairly-regular updates at Isabela explains it all.

An idle thought:  if dressing as a character is "cosplay", what should we call blogging as a character?  "Blogplay"?

Loved the story and the blog, keep it coming

[VampOrchid]

if you go to this linke www.youtube.com/watch and look at 1:49

When does this actually take place? I just started my Isabella romance and don't know where that happens...

Any ideas?

[Dutchess]

^I think it's something that doesn't actually occur in-game. I haven't seen it with my friend romance with Isabela anyway.

[VampOrchid]

awww...lame!

[whykikyouwhy]

VampOrchid wrote...

if you go to this linke www.youtube.com/watch and look at 1:49

When does this actually take place? I just started my Isabella romance and don't know where that happens...

Any ideas?

I think that animation was just intended for the trailers. There are a few different scenes in various trailers that don't correspond exactly with in-game events/scenes.

[Quething]

Wentletrap wrote...

An idle thought:  if dressing as a character is "cosplay", what should we call blogging as a character?  "Blogplay"?

"fanfic."

Also I would shank a dude for that kiss. DA2 is really hurting for lack of the "talk to anywhere" option, if only for the ability to kiss a LI on a whim.

Modifié par Quething, 14 décembre 2011 - 03:03 .

[hoorayforicecream]

My goodness, that first draft went a lot longer than I thought it would. 13,500 words. Hopefully I can get it pushed out soon.

[Master Shiori]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

My goodness, that first draft went a lot longer than I thought it would. 13,500 words. Hopefully I can get it pushed out soon.

More snacking goodness incoming? Can't wait!! 

[Maria Caliban]

13,500 is less a snack and more a supper.

Quething wrote...

...Isabela's clearly the most desirable sort of person to be...

Out of context, I find that a head-scratcher. I wonder what it will be in context.

Anyways, in another thread, we had a small Isabela discussion. I thought I'd c+p it to see if anyone had an opinion.

Forgive any format errors. I just changed my version of Word and am not sure how it acts online.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
In Dragon age 2 i really hated how they potraied isabella..

I mean a woman with a huge breast that wear a corset a perizoma and long boots... Ho well but now i bet that DA2 defenders comes out and say: It's just the character.. or It have a more personal look.. Or again. It's just oversexualized...

And this isn't a problem that you also have with Witcher 2... how? I mean, I like that game, but some of the character designs are kind of hilarious. Saskia's cleavage-plate comes to mind.

I agree a little with your point on Saskia's cleavage plate, but Isabella has no armor whatsoever and her cleavage gets bigger every time i see them. Isabella's outfit has no practicality in any combat situation involving dragons, and heavily armored goons armed to the teeth.

Oh yeah, I completely agree. My opinion is not (as you can read earlier) that "TW2 is sexist and DA2 is not sexist." It's more "they're both sexist in their own special ways." On balance, I find DA2 sexism worse, but that's just my opinion.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seriously? Dragon Age II is more sexist than the Witcher 2 because of Isabela?

Aveline, Meredith, Merrill, Cassandra, Sister Petricia, and the Keeper, all women with different personalities, roles, and looks but because there's one overtly sexualized woman in your companions, Dragon Age II is sexist?

Oh lord. Next we're going to hear how Sheryl Chee must hate women again because she created Leliana.

"There are some strong female characters in the game" =/= "nothing in the game can possibly be sexist."

Haha oh Leliana. Is there any female stereotype you don't embody?

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't think you understand what a 'strong female character' is if you felt the need to cross of Merrill. It's not 'strong' as in being able to kick your ass or being tough. It's being a strong CHARACTER; as in, well-rounded, and having goals and personal agency.

That said, you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that sexism is women having big ****** and showing skin. That's not the problem. That's never been the problem. In a world completely free of sexism, there would still be female characters designed to appeal to the stereotypical straight male gaze.

What's sexist is when 1) sexy female characters are never developed beyond that sexiness, and 2) the default for female is sexy.

Neither of those are true when it comes to Isabela and Dragon Age II. In fact, Isabela, especially given her relationship with Merrill and Aveline, is pretty damn feminist.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[Bayz]

I wouldn't actually even look at Isabella in RL...well maybe look at her I will, but not other than that and if she got any close to me I would be too busy thinking about genital herpes to even start to put two words together with her...

That said I haven't played the witcher in a long time to remember the personalities but I don't actually believe that there are strong females in DA2 either.

Isabella is ok I guess but still, she has a lot of over the top moments that just kills my credibility of her, let alone that she is very shallow...still ended up as my first Hawke's love interest, in the other playthrough I had a gay Hawke which, curiously enough, had a more satisfying relationship than the first, with Anders...don't think it make Anders more fleshed out or not (after all he had like two games to reveal his personality so)

[Maria Caliban]

Oh ****, I'm Anders.

Bayz wrote...

I wouldn't actually even look at Isabella in RL...well maybe look at her I will, but not other than that and if she got any close to me I would be too busy thinking about genital herpes to even start to put two words together with her...

Rarely acknowledged fact: The women with the highest number of sexual partners are the most likely to consistently use protection. No such correlation is found in men.

When men suggest that a woman who has lots of sex with lots of different people will have an STI, they're just projecting their own behaviors onto women.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:21 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Maria Caliban - I have to agree with the points you've made.

There seems to be this conditioned response that we (both women and men) have toward women who show a little skin, or are beautiful in some outward capacity. The "sexy" label is immediately attached, followed by a positive or negative reaction based on gender and/or expectation.

With Isabela especially, this sort of attitude runs rampant. "She's sexy, therefore she is fanservice, therefore she is cheap, and because I think she's cheap based on how she looks or seems to act, I'm not going to take the extra time to listen to what she has to say, or perhaps discern the meaning behind her actions." And thus, she remains just a puppet of sorts to those folks - a facade that they can attach a myriad of negative adjectives.

"Sexist" is very much about how characters are treated (or not) - whether or not the time and effort is taken to make them an immersive piece of the game, and to allow them to grow and develop through the hours of gameplay. Aside from Isabela being the proverbial book judged by the cover, she is very much a bit of walking empowerment. Take her relationship with Aveline (no disrespect to Merrill) - in a standard setting where the female characters must compete with one another, Isabela and Aveline would be at each other's throats over a man, or their own concepts of beauty. Instead, while they pick at each other, they are supportive and oddly tender toward one another. There's real love and loyalty there (despite the barbed veneer) and that defies the convention of those standard characters. They can coexist as women strong in their own unique ways, and strong for knowing each other.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[PseudoEthnic]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Thought you lovely folks might find this amusing. I put it together today when thinking of the forums.



Cheers.

You just ruined Dragon Age 2 for me because now every time I play the game I'll be thinking about BSN. Anders and Fenris can never be in my paryy again.

[Quething]

I think Isabela fans can be a bit quick to write off the outfit; it is a ridiculously un-combat-ready impractical bit of fanservice, full stop, and it looks that way for a reason, and she was used in the advertising for DA2 over any of the other women for a reason, and she exists in a context that includes everything from the DA:O light armors to Bayonetta which I don't think you can justly ignore or brush off with "oh take a deeper look at the character."

That said, I can't think of a video game character whose writing is more overtly and satisfyingly feminist than hers, with the sole exception of maybe the Rival romance. Complex, sex-positive, forms deep, meaningful and varied relationships with other women, drives the plot through her own agency and decisions, even occasionally comments insightfully on the topic ("The world isn't kind to women"), she is a bloody dream come true.

And calling DA2 more sexist than the Witcher, really? Really? In other news, winter is hotter than summer and sugar is more sour than limes.

Modifié par Quething, 17 décembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Bayz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rarely acknowledged fact: The women with the highest number of sexual partners are the most likely to consistently use protection. No such correlation is found in men.

When men suggest that a woman who has lots of sex with lots of different people will have an STI, they're just projecting their own behaviors onto women.

That is actually true, women as a whole tend to be more concerned with personal hygiene than men, independently of sexual behaviour or not.

Doesn't mean they are not most likely to have STD's than women who are more picky with their partners.

And mind you I said Isabella because I am straight, were I to be a woman, or gay I wouldn't touch an "Isabello" either. Is not about gender, is about the fact that they go with many people without being too picky and I am not into that.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

There seems to be this conditioned
response that we (both women and men) have toward women who show a
little skin, or are beautiful in some outward capacity. The "sexy" label
is immediately attached, followed by a positive or negative reaction
based on gender and/or expectation.

It is a videogame so the outfit is not what puts me out. It is mostly some of the scenes that seem quite over the top, happened the same with Zevran, mind you it doesn't mean I don't like the character (actually I am quite neutral with all the characters on DA2 or I hate them equally) but I can't but see her as a caricature of a human being...but hey that happens to me and all the rest of the cast...

Modifié par Bayz, 17 décembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Bayz wrote...
And mind you I said Isabella because I am straight, were I to be a woman, or gay I wouldn't touch an "Isabello" either. Is not about gender, is about the fact that they go with many people without being too picky and I am not into that.

Well, you'e certainly entitled to your preferences for gaming LIs or RL ones for that matter, and all the criteria for either.

However, there isn't anything in-game that I can recall that indicates that Isabela isn't picky about her partners. She jokes a lot about her liaisons and dalliances, and laughs over the jokes others tell about her, but she does comment to Merrill that she has not had as many lovers as one would think. So...a lot of bluster, perhaps. Exaggeration, rumor, etc, that she chooses to not overly defend herself over and correct people on.

So even if she has had a handful or two of lovers, that doesn't mean that she isn't quite selective when it comes to choosing them. And once Hawke enters into a relationship with her, the game seems to indicate that she remains devoted because as the Acts progress, she starts falling for Hawke.

I guess the bottom line here is why dismiss someone for his/her past - where they have been and who they have been with shapes the person, perhaps making him/her better able to give their heart to the 'right' someone.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[Maria Caliban]

The idea that being 'selective' with your partners will prevent STIs is the reason the US has such a high rate of STIs.

Brothel workers in Nevada are required to get check up on a regular basis and manage to avoid contacting diseases despite sleeping with over 100 men in a year. It has nothing to do with being selective. It has everything to do with insisting on a condom.

Likewise, there are many men and women who've only had a handful of partners in their lifetimes yet have chlamydia. Why? Because they suffered from the delusion that germs care that your partner...
1) Looks clean
2) Is such a nice guy/gal
3) Is a friend
4) Someone you've known for a long time
5) It's 'that' type of person
6) Has a good job
7) Is a Christian

Meanwhile, the idea that men can happily plunge into any port they find while women have to be picky about their partners or are s**** is the same old BS.

Quething wrote...

I think Isabela fans can be a bit quick to write off the outfit; it is a ridiculously un-combat-ready impractical bit of fanservice, full stop, and it looks that way for a reason, and she was used in the advertising for DA2 over any of the other women for a reason, and she exists in a context that includes everything from the DA:O light armors to Bayonetta which I don't think you can justly ignore or brush off with "oh take a deeper look at the character."

Except I didn't write off the costume. It's impractical and certainly made with straight dudes in mind.

But that's not sexism. Sexism is when the male gaze is the default for the work.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 décembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
With Isabela especially, this sort of attitude runs rampant. "She's sexy, therefore she is fanservice, therefore she is cheap, and because I think she's cheap based on how she looks or seems to act, I'm not going to take the extra time to listen to what she has to say, or perhaps discern the meaning behind her actions." And thus, she remains just a puppet of sorts to those folks - a facade that they can attach a myriad of negative adjectives.

To me, that seems just as bad as those that only like the character for her hotness.

[whykikyouwhy]

jlb524 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
With Isabela especially, this sort of attitude runs rampant. "She's sexy, therefore she is fanservice, therefore she is cheap, and because I think she's cheap based on how she looks or seems to act, I'm not going to take the extra time to listen to what she has to say, or perhaps discern the meaning behind her actions." And thus, she remains just a puppet of sorts to those folks - a facade that they can attach a myriad of negative adjectives.

To me, that seems just as bad as those that only like the character for her hotness.

You mean the "She's hot - I don't know who she is, or what she does, but who cares...she's hot" perspective?

When it comes down to it, I can't fault people for disliking any character - there are characters that I don't particularly care for or who I used very little in my playthroughs. What I tend to scowl over though is when people make a blanket assumption about a well-written character based on a 5-minute encounter and then that becomes all of who or what that character represents for a person. Isabela is dressed provocatively, therefore she is a s**t. She flirted with my Hawke, therefore she is a s**t. Or what have you. The same thing happens with Fenris, Merrill, Anders, etc.

And it's not that I think everyone should invest copious amounts of time into getting to know each character. Perhaps they have never liked pirates, or they don't care for elves or mages, or any number of reasons they have for not spending a lot of party time with these characters. But the first impression judgement seems wrong to me - it happens too often IRL that it's just sad to see it happen with a game, with fiction. (Though I guess I would prefer it applied to fiction only rather than RL, if only that were possible.)

Ultimately, if people don't like Isabela, that's fine. That's their choice - they're free to it. But I wish it was due to a reason other than the old easy standbys of wh*redom or disease.

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
You mean the "She's hot - I don't know who she is, or what she does, but who cares...she's hot" perspective?

Right, which is, apparently to some people, the only type of person Isabela was designed to appeal to...thus her character is 'sexist', DA2 is 'sexist', Sheryl Chee is 'sexist', Canada is 'sexist', etc.

whykikyouwhy wrote... 
When it comes down to it, I can't fault people for disliking any character - there are characters that I don't particularly care for or who I used very little in my playthroughs. What I tend to scowl over though is when people make a blanket assumption about a well-written character based on a 5-minute encounter and then that becomes all of who or what that character represents for a person. Isabela is dressed provocatively, therefore she is a s**t. She flirted with my Hawke, therefore she is a s**t. Or what have you. The same thing happens with Fenris, Merrill, Anders, etc.

I can't agree with you more.

whykikyouwhy wrote...  
Ultimately, if people don't like Isabela, that's fine. That's their choice - they're free to it. But I wish it was due to a reason other than the old easy standbys of wh*redom or disease.

Absolutely...if the reason required you to put actual thought into the character.  Perhaps you don't care for Isabela because of her selfish tendencies?  I think this opinon holds weight as you can justify it from things Isabela does or says in the game.  Repeating the 's**t' buzzword that many others have said over and over again gets annoying.

[Bayz]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Bayz wrote...
And mind you I said Isabella because I am straight, were I to be a woman, or gay I wouldn't touch an "Isabello" either. Is not about gender, is about the fact that they go with many people without being too picky and I am not into that.

Well, you'e certainly entitled to your preferences for gaming LIs or RL ones for that matter, and all the criteria for either.

However, there isn't anything in-game that I can recall that indicates that Isabela isn't picky about her partners. She jokes a lot about her liaisons and dalliances, and laughs over the jokes others tell about her, but she does comment to Merrill that she has not had as many lovers as one would think. So...a lot of bluster, perhaps. Exaggeration, rumor, etc, that she chooses to not overly defend herself over and correct people on.

So even if she has had a handful or two of lovers, that doesn't mean that she isn't quite selective when it comes to choosing them. And once Hawke enters into a relationship with her, the game seems to indicate that she remains devoted because as the Acts progress, she starts falling for Hawke.

I guess the bottom line here is why dismiss someone for his/her past - where they have been and who they have been with shapes the person, perhaps making him/her better able to give their heart to the 'right' someone.

I guess it was kinda when without actually talking about it, she decided to go for it with my Warden what gave me the idea of that.

Maria Caliban wrote...

The idea that being 'selective' with your partners will prevent STIs is the reason the US has such a high rate of STIs.

Brothel
workers in Nevada are required to get check up on a regular basis and
manage to avoid contacting diseases despite sleeping with over 100 men
in a year. It has nothing to do with being selective. It has everything
to do with insisting on a condom.

Likewise, there are many men
and women who've only had a handful of partners in their lifetimes yet
have chlamydia. Why? Because they suffered from the delusion that germs
care that your partner...
1) Looks clean
2) Is such a nice guy/gal
3) Is a friend
4) Someone you've known for a long time
5) It's 'that' type of person
6) Has a good job
7) Is a Christian
 

Isabella is promiscuous but not a professional. Obviously prostitutes, specially Brothel ones must have it checked more often as well...it is their bread that is at play. The image of the brothel and stuff can get bad if the girls start to give STD's to customers...

I don't kknow how it works in the US, but here at least it helps to reduce it a lot, I can assure you that. Remember though that not all STD's (Chlamydia for instance) are actually ST as in transmission, I remember an study saying that most of the reasons of spreading people getting Chlamydia in women in the UK was due to girls changing their pantys with each other or washing their intimate clothes together...so yeah, STD's are a whole world in themselves.

[Quething]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Except I didn't write off the costume. It's impractical and certainly made with straight dudes in mind.

But that's not sexism. Sexism is when the male gaze is the default for the work.

I disagree. Sexism is when the male gaze appears where it shouldn't. (Among many, many other things of course.)

If Izzy changed her clothes to something that made sense in combat when she went into combat, and wore her "on the pull" outfit when on the pull, that would be different. As-is, she's designed to be sexy above all, regardless of any other considerations within the game. That can't be justified or excused by any amount of awesomeness anywhere else in the setting, and certainly not when taken in the wider context of there being so few games anywhere where that trope can be gotten away from.

As for the STI discussion, I feel like I just said this two minutes ago but we know Izzy had an STI because we saw her getting it cured. Pretty sure if, say, Carver got one he'd be too embarrassed to go to the clinic. Of the two I know who I'd prefer to trust my health to a roll in the hay with.

[Bayz]

Well for Izzy's specialization what would you make her wear? If it were a RL situation she should have stuff that allowed her to blend in, at the same time be comfortable, and that helped her in hit and run tactics.

Oh and because of what she is, that helped her to fight on boats...