6837 réponses à ce sujet

[Batlass8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

With Isabela especially, this sort of attitude runs rampant. "She's sexy, therefore she is fanservice, therefore she is cheap, and because I think she's cheap based on how she looks or seems to act, I'm not going to take the extra time to listen to what she has to say, or perhaps discern the meaning behind her actions." And thus, she remains just a puppet of sorts to those folks - a facade that they can attach a myriad of negative adjectives.

As someone who started out playing DA2 with this attitude, I have to say that it really is worth taking the time to talk with Isabela.  Even outside the romance- my first playthrough she and Hawke sort of accidentally ended up being friends, (as in, I didn't realize that maybe I didn't hate her until she walked into the Keep with the Tome of Koslun).  With Isabela, it's her story that makes her such a worthwhile character.  I'm very glad that I realized that, and given my experience, I can't help feeling sorry for players who don't at least try looking past her surface presentation.

[Quething]

Bayz wrote...

Well for Izzy's specialization what would you make her wear? If it were a RL situation she should have stuff that allowed her to blend in, at the same time be comfortable, and that helped her in hit and run tactics.

Oh and because of what she is, that helped her to fight on boats...

Well, I've always found her rather dashing in the stuff that the game itself considers pirate gear:



A more unique spin on that would suit nicely for combat, I would think.

Modifié par Quething, 19 décembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Maria Caliban]

Quething wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Except I didn't write off the costume. It's impractical and certainly made with straight dudes in mind.

But that's not sexism. Sexism is when the male gaze is the default for the work.

I disagree. Sexism is when the male gaze appears where it shouldn't. (Among many, many other things of course.)

How is that a disagreement?

The male-gaze comes up in works when it shouldn't because it's the default.

If Izzy changed her clothes to something that made sense in combat when she went into combat...

It makes sense for the aesthetic of the work, where many armors for men and women are not practical. That's the only 'sense' it needs to make. You might dislike that aesthetic, but clothing you dislike is not the same as sexism.

Again, having a sexy outfit on one woman is not a problem. It's when all women need to be sexy and wear sexy outfits that there's a problem.

[Quething]

You're using a Benes pic as a counterexample to back up the exact same argument that comic book dudebros make to defend him?

Many armors for men and women are not practical in DA2. Those male armors that are impractical, however, are impractical in order to look cool and intimidating. Female armors such as Izzy's that are impractical are impractical in order to look sexy. There is a distinct difference, just as there is a distinct difference between Dinah's fishnets and heels and Batman's pointy ears, and it is crazy disingenuous to say that one excuses the other. Women - any women, at all - being sexy when it doesn't make sense, is male gaze. And you can't say that's just part of the DA aesthetic, because the DA aesthetic does not put sex everywhere whether it's appropriate or not. It just puts sex on a few female characters whether it's appropriate or not. (Unless you're saying that male gaze is an inherent part of the DA aesthetic, in which case I'd both have to disagree with you, and wonder why the heck you thought that was a good thing or something worth defending or excusing.)

Thankfully, it's much less common in DA2 than in DAO or, God forbid, ME2. But that doesn't make it magically not so in Isabela's case. It just makes her an isolated case.

(Not totally isolated, sadly. Poor Flemeth...)

Modifié par Quething, 20 décembre 2011 - 07:31 .

[Esbatty]

Ed and Maria Benes do good work.

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't think Flemeth's outfit is all that bad. *glances at avatar*

While she has some cleavage showing, it's not overt, and she is not overly endowed. The snug armor? I mentioned this in another thread, but the overall cut and structure reminds me of artwork I've seen of Joan of Arc. It's armor meant to show the person as armored, evocative of a warrior, though not necessarily something that will provide bulky protection in battle.

EDIT - To add to this, I think there is a fine line between armor that is practical and armor that intended for something of the fantasy genre. The latter often goes over the top, yes, but I think for the most part, I'll personally look away from the baseline impracticality of it, because I can take into consideration other elements, such as magic. As such, armor can be impractial and not be overly sexualized.
Of course, with regard to Flemeth, I may be biased. But if so, I have no shame.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 20 décembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Quething wrote...

You're using a Benes pic as a counterexample to back up the exact same argument that comic book dudebros make to defend him?

Please link me to someone defending Benes by saying that using the male-gaze as default is sexism.

Many armors for men and women are not practical in DA2.

Glad we agree.

Those male armors that are impractical, however, are impractical in order to look cool and intimidating. Female armors such as Izzy's that are impractical are impractical in order to look sexy.

Let's get this straight... I defended Isabela's sexualization, *you* bring up impracticality, I point out that practicality is a non-related aesthetic issue, and now you say it's not about impracticality but sexualization.

Awesome. Let's rewind to before you derailed the conversation then.

The issue is the sexualization of women.

Isabela is a sexualized character. She is also a sexual character (which is good and not at all sexist) but her depiction is problematic.

Your assertion is that Isabela is sexist because she's sexualized. Mine is that having a sexualized woman is not inherently bad, as it's how a work treats women in general that matters.

That is, does the way that the game treats Isabela the default or is it the exception?

That this conversation is about Isabela, and it 90% of the time about Isabela, suggests that she's an oddity in her overt sexualization. Merrill, Aveline, Cassandra, Meredith, and Bethany stand out as female characters who aren't given the same visual treatment.

Flemeth, alternatively, is a great example of inappropriate sexualization (she reminds me of Matriarch Betheznda from ME 1) and we don't get the same eye-candy treatment for male characters, though I've seen people refer to Fenris as tween girl bait.

As I view Isabela as an exception within DA 2, your assertion that she's sexist suggest to me that you view any instance of a female character being used as eye-candy as a form of sexism.

Now, is there any instance or exception to that personal rule? When would you view a woman being sexualized as acceptable?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Quething]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Please link me to someone defending Benes by saying that using the male-gaze as default is sexism.

Bzuh? People defend Benes (and all comics art) by saying "the men are exaggerated/impractical too." Which is exactly what you just said to defend Isabela: that her costume is not a problem because impracticality is simply a DA2 aesthetic.

What they miss, and what your identical argument thus likewise ignores, is that impracticality in the service of sexiness is not comparable to impracticality in the service of coolness.

Let's get this straight... I defended Isabela's sexualization, *you* bring up impracticality, I point out that practicality is a non-related aesthetic issue, and now you say it's not about impracticality but sexualization.

No. You defended Isabela's sexualization as fine, I pointed out that it's not fine because it's not appropriate during non-sexual situations, and you used an equivalency defense by saying that other things the game does aren't appropriate in those situations either. Which is irrelevant, because those things are not sexualization, which I thus pointed out. How is that derailing?

but her depiction is problematic.

I'm glad we agree!

Your assertion is that Isabela is sexist because she's sexualized.

In fact it is not! My assertion is that Isabela's depiction is problematic! You just said it yourself! Why are we arguing this when we agree?

The other half of my assertion is that Isabela's fans often handwave the sexism of her presentation, denying that it exists for any of the reasons you've stated; that women being sexual is not inherently bad, that the style of the game excuses it, that it suits her character to be sexualized. These don't hold up, because she is sexualized in situations where that sexualization is not appropriate.

Speaking of:

Now, is there any instance or exception to that personal rule? When would you view a woman being sexualized as acceptable?

As I've said, in sexual or readily sexualizible situations, where that sexualization would not interfere or conflict with the other things she's doing at the time, notably but not exclusively to the extent of not getting her killed.

Isabela walking around with her femoral arteries exposed for a neat slicing and her neckline plunging below her nipple line is perfectly fine - in fact, totally awesome - when she's meandering about Kirkwall. She's happy with her body and wants everyone else to be happy with it too; good for her! It suits her character and I absolutely believe she'd walk into the Viscount's very office dressed like that (even though that wouldn't be appropriate for most characters because that's not a sexual situation) if only for the look on Bran's face.

On the other hand, Isabela walking around with her femoral arteries exposed or a neat slicing and her neckline plunging below her nipple line is highly inappropriate in a fight, when one backflip will have her boobs popping out and smacking her in the face if somebody doesn't arrow her right in the exposed heart before she even has a chance to move, is male gaze. That's sexualization not for the sake of the character, not because it makes sense, not because it's appropriate to what's happening in the story, but simply because Isabela's job is to be sexy. The fact that this is an artifact of the "iconic character" thing is completely irrelevant; it was BioWare's choice to design the game and the character in such a way that her sexualization was everpresent.

And seriously. It is not an accident that the woman who does flips does not wear pants.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't think Flemeth's outfit is all that bad. *glances at avatar*

I'm not that fussed about it, I just roll my eyes and move on; it'd be easy enough to mod the texture real quick if I really cared. Of course, again, my baseline is comic books, where we have to deal with creators who honestly think it makes perfect sense for a woman who was shot three times in the gut and nearly died from it in one of the most defining moments in her career to switch over to a costume with a random square cut out of the belly. So that's probably not saying much. 

Modifié par Quething, 22 décembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Quething wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't think Flemeth's outfit is all that bad. *glances at avatar*

I'm not that fussed about it, I just roll my eyes and move on; it'd be easy enough to mod the texture real quick if I really cared. Of course, again, my baseline is comic books, where we have to deal with creators who honestly think it makes perfect sense for a woman who was shot three times in the gut and nearly died from it in one of the most defining moments in her career to switch over to a costume with a random square cut out of the belly. So that's probably not saying much. 

Well, to sort of touch upon this and specifically with how the armor argument relates to Isabela, I'm going to be lazy (have only had one cup of coffee) and quote something I wrote in another thread:

I look at Isabela's attire as part of her overall character design, specifically her role as the book judged by the cover. That's my take away from my gaming experience with her, from doing her quests, seeing her whole story arc. Could that twist have been conveyed if she were in light leather armor? Maybe. Maybe not. I doubt it would have made the same impact - I mean, here you have a female character that is, in many ways, the antithesis of who/what female characters often are in video games. The gut reaction from most people with regard to her is based on her appearance. And I have heard and read accounts from numerous players who didn't care from her from the get-go (mostly due to that initial reaction) and who were pleasantly surprised over her depth as the game progressed.

So yeah, maybe a leather cuirass would have made more "sense", seemed more realistic, but that's just not the route that was taken with her default appearance. And I'm ok with that personally because of the range of her character. The substance is there beneath the appearance. Plus, it's not a metal bikini. (I draw the line at those, I'm afraid. They're just too cold.)

I think had she not been written without the substance, without the depth, I would feel quite differently about the matter, because then it would be a case of sexy-just-to-be-sexy - the same old tired thing we've seen in art, comics, and games for years. And maybe that seems like a nice excuse on my part (that her depth supercedes the appearance), but that's how I see it.

I suppose if Kirkwall had phone booths, the characters could all make a quick change into battle outfits when they're ready to engage an enemy.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 22 décembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[Quething]

Eh. I think Izzy's a really feminist character, and I think DA2 is, for all its other many failings, a surprisingly feminist game (rather moreso than DA:O/A, which was already reasonably praiseworth IMO). I love her depth, and I think there is some real merit in the message you get from having her crazysexy outfit and her frank attitude about sex be the first thing you see and then having that contrast with the complexity and strength and agency she shows as the story develops.

But I still say her outfit is pandering, and I happily use the pants mod for her default outfit* and Ish's equippable party for the rest. 

* It's surprising how scandalous pants can be, actually. I like the strappy leather ones, they say "I won't get rope burns on my thighs" without losing that essential "I'm the hottest thing you've ever seen" message.

I will definitely not argue that Thedas needs more phone booths, though. I mean, lots of characters are even already faster than speeding bullets and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound... 

On a totally different track, since it's probably about to come up in a fic I'm writing: what do you guys think Isabela actually thinks of Carver? Is she serious when she flirts with him? What would she think of him joining the Templars?

Modifié par Quething, 24 décembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[hoorayforicecream]

I think Isabela finds Carver amusing. She'd probably consider sleeping with him as a lark, a sort of 'I dare you to do it' situation. If it turned out well, might do it more than once... but more than likely she'd use his inadequacies as more fodder to continue to torment him.

On an unrelated note, I've posted the newest Snacking story. Though yes, at 13,500 words, it weighs in more like a meal. Let me know what you think, and happy holidays.

[JoeLaTurkey]

A poster from this Isabela-loving turkey

[whykikyouwhy]

@JoeLaTurkey - Very nice, Ser. Very nice.

[JoeLaTurkey]

And another, with a Blackadder twist

[Quething]

.... but Hawke is neither particularly frugal nor particularly Puritan.

(I mean you can't quite play her as Isabela-level bawdy, because all the uncomfortable, disgusted, "please stop talking" banter responses to people talking about sex are out of your control, but you can't play her as Aveline-level contemptuous of/uncomfortable with any trace of sexuality either, since all the laughter-at-people-flirting-with-your-sister stuff is also out of your control. So it's fair to say that it's canon that Hawke is ok with at least Varric's level of roguishness.)

(That said, I heartily approve of Isabela slapping Hawke's ass on a regular basis.)

Modifié par Quething, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:54 .

[JoeLaTurkey]

And we're back, I'll make some more when I've had time to go through more screenies on this thread

[JoeLaTurkey]

Where did everybody go?

[Lintanis]

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

And we're back, I'll make some more when I've had time to go through more screenies on this thread

With that look someone is about to have there ball sack turned into a purse 

[hoorayforicecream]

I went to Taiwan for a week and now I'm fighting off jet lag. What's your excuse?

[Sifr]

A sudden stroke of brilliance occured to me in regards to Isabela's lack of armour (or lack of clothing altogether).

While we could argue that since she spends all her coin drinking at the Hanged Man, she's never had enough to replace the armour she had to shed when she bailed from the "Siren's Call" after the Qunari made it flounder on the rocks.

A good theory. It fits, but here's a better one.

The fact she's not wearing many clothes, means that her enemies are more likely to be distracted by her body. As such, Isabela knows that they're not going to notice where her hands are... or if she's picking their pocket... or reaching for a dagger.

A good example? Her introduction has her go to kiss Lucky, before slamming his head straight into the bar, and when he goes to draw his weapon, he's too busy looking at her and doesn't spot her knife until its at his throat.

She's weaponised the idea of being "Distracted By the Sexy".

Modifié par Sifr1449, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:04 .

[JoeLaTurkey]

^ *Nods solemnly*

Yes...yes

[shotgun-shepard]

Nice to see you in here JoeLaTurkey with your particular brand of hilarity. If you want screencaps feel free to peruse my photobucket, I made it a personal mission to frap every Isabela moment possible for the bettering of humanity;
s928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/the-weirdwolf/Dragon%20Age/

And I loved the new installment of Snaking, Hooray. A wonderful read as per usual! I eagerly wait for more.

[JoeLaTurkey]

^ *rubs hands together in a creepy way* Excellent!







That's it for now. More later.

Also, my novelisation Rise To Power is M!Hawke/Isabela - and you should all totally read it 

Modifié par JoeLaTurkey, 14 janvier 2012 - 03:21 .

[JoeLaTurkey]

More fun

[JoeLaTurkey]

Rise To Power updated

And more of Isabela