6837 réponses à ce sujet

[Wentletrap]

 Wanted to share a gallery I came across on Deviantart - lots of good DA stuff, including many sketches of Isabela dancing.

The Aveline one is my favorite... 

[JoeLaTurkey]

^ classic. I love the limericks too.

...and it's getting kind of slow around here...

Modifié par JoeLaTurkey, 19 janvier 2012 - 08:21 .

[brain_damage]

22 days of no activity? Don't die, thread, don't die!

[hoorayforicecream]

For those interested, I've started writing a new story! Also another small short is almost done and should be put out for your reading perusal soon.

[Megaton_Hope]

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

Heh, Oh no she d'in't.

Those two, I dunno, man, it's amazing they'll adventure in the same party sometimes. But then, I guess after Aveline started making excuses for Hawke, it was downhill from there.

[Malanu]

Quething wrote...

I think Isabela fans can be a bit quick to write off the outfit; it is a ridiculously un-combat-ready impractical bit of fanservice, full stop, and it looks that way for a reason, and she was used in the advertising for DA2 over any of the other women for a reason, and she exists in a context that includes everything from the DA:O light armors to Bayonetta which I don't think you can justly ignore or brush off with "oh take a deeper look at the character."
*SNIP*

Well I remember reading that female Ninja's would flash a guard to distract them long enough to escape or kill them... The idea of Isabella being always sans pants fall into this concept. Bear thighs and the flash of silk/lacy panties would distract many a male advisary.

[CuriousArtemis]

Malanu wrote...

Quething wrote...

I think Isabela fans can be a bit quick to write off the outfit; it is a ridiculously un-combat-ready impractical bit of fanservice, full stop, and it looks that way for a reason, and she was used in the advertising for DA2 over any of the other women for a reason, and she exists in a context that includes everything from the DA:O light armors to Bayonetta which I don't think you can justly ignore or brush off with "oh take a deeper look at the character."
*SNIP*

Well I remember reading that female Ninja's would flash a guard to distract them long enough to escape or kill them... The idea of Isabella being always sans pants fall into this concept. Bear thighs and the flash of silk/lacy panties would distract many a male advisary.

Yeah, but you would also have like a constant wedgie!!  I couldn't fight with a wedgie lol

[rwilli80]

motomotogirl wrote...

Yeah, but you would also have like a constant wedgie!!  I couldn't fight with a wedgie lol

I am sure after awhile you would just get use to it.

[shotgun-shepard]

Just read the new online comic 'The Silent Grove'. The narrative is promising but Isabela states she had her husband killed despite the fact that she states; "He took an assassin's blade to the back of the skull. And before you ask, NO I didn't hire the assassin." in the game.

What is it with literature breaking the lore just recently heh?

Other than that niggle and my head-cannon insisting that Hawke was also on the ship but had other business to attend to, otherwise what would Isabela be doing without her... it's worth a read!

[hoorayforicecream]

shotgun-shepard wrote...

Just read the new online comic 'The Silent Grove'. The narrative is promising but Isabela states she had her husband killed despite the fact that she states; "He took an assassin's blade to the back of the skull. And before you ask, NO I didn't hire the assassin." in the game.

What is it with literature breaking the lore just recently heh?

Other than that niggle and my head-cannon insisting that Hawke was also on the ship but had other business to attend to, otherwise what would Isabela be doing without her... it's worth a read!

It's probably just a handwave. Isabela could be lying in either side.

On an unrelated note, one wouldn't necessarily get a wedgie all the time. Underwear doesn't always ride up if it's made right. that said, I've worn a thong before for extended period while playing certain sports, and it didn't cause any major discomfort.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Her conversation with Zevran from the first game seems to imply that she wasn't responsible.

[Dutchess]

Indeed. I got the idea Zevran used her to get close enough to her husband to kill her.

[shotgun-shepard]

So, I've used my own wily wily ways to convince my theatre lecturer that writing an essay on Dragon Age would be good.

...Its going to be an analysis of Isabela and guests from a feminist perspective, so any thoughts and if so can I make you famous and quote you in my essay?

I know this has been discussed before but the thought of trawling through 266 pages when I want to get on with writing isn't great! Thanks.

[CuriousArtemis]

shotgun-shepard wrote...

So, I've used my own wily wily ways to convince my theatre lecturer that writing an essay on Dragon Age would be good.

...Its going to be an analysis of Isabela and guests from a feminist perspective, so any thoughts and if so can I make you famous and quote you in my essay?

I know this has been discussed before but the thought of trawling through 266 pages when I want to get on with writing isn't great! Thanks.

I've actually been playing with the idea of putting together a talk or an article on Dragon Age so I love this  I think Isabela is an incredible character, but what fascinates me the most are the many ways fans have reacted to her.  

What will your essay be about, specifically?

[shotgun-shepard]

Just working out all the kinks now.

Basically I'm going to explore the argument between players that Isabela is a. a shallow piece of fan-service, or b. a deep character and potential feminist figure.

I know most of us here will lean towards B, but I'd like to know why, do you think a balance can exist?

Also I'm interested in how much head-canon affects the argument as well.
This can be as simple as what gendered Hawke you play or more complex nuances such as developments to backstory, filler and so on.

For example, I romance Isabela with a gay LadyHawke, so this affects my head-canon because I assume Isabela has spent so much time objectifying and using men, that she accidentaly let a lady-loving lady past her defences.

So how does our head-canon affect our reading of her and to what extent?
And what are everyone's reasons for using a particular gender when romancing her, how does this affect the reading, if at all?


Hope that helps.

Modifié par shotgun-shepard, 27 février 2012 - 08:01 .

[whykikyouwhy]

This is an abbreviated answer (from work) - I may have something more substantial later, but I would suggest taking a look at the behaviors and attitudes that Isabela possesses/displays and how they are typically attributed to male characters/personas. This sort of falls in line with the ****-shaming - in our modern society, if Isabela were a man, would people be as offended or bothered by her remarks or dalliances? It boils down to expected and unconscious social norms.

Also, I would recommend taking a look at her relationship with Aveline. In a good chunk of entertainment and narrative where two female characters are featured, they are often portrayed as arguing over a man, or in some sort of competition to be the best at something. Aveline & Isabela can be somewhat catty or biting in their banter, but it's not done for any competitive motive. So too, their relationship blossoms and strengthens into something that is atypical. Another veering away from social norms.

In addition those two areas, the banter pretty much solidifies my view that she is option B.

[hoorayforicecream]

I believe Isabela's depiction is feminist in nature, and here's why.

- She is a well-rounded character that strays from the norm. While her backstory involves many classical and familiar elements of a fantasy heroine (murdered husband, emotionally detached with a penchant for casual sexual encounters, amazon fighting prowess, scoundrel with a heart of gold), what makes her special is how she behaves in a way that is consistent with these qualities, and yet still very much her own person.

It's about how she owns these qualities without making them about anyone but herself. She isn't melancholy because she left the man she loved behind. She wasn't traumatized by the death of her husband and unable to get over it. She isn't an emotional wreck - she's guarded in one aspect... and she knows it. She's not afraid of falling in love again, but she's not sure that she's ready for it. But she's got enough self-esteem to not care what others think, and that's something lacking in many heroines today. Like she says in a banter with Aveline...

• Isabela: Trust me. I've heard, "Get away from me, you pirate hag!" more times than I care to count.
• Aveline: Doesn't that bother you?
• Isabela: Why should it? They don't know me. I know me.

She makes excellent friends with members of the group - Merrill and Aveline in particular, and her role in those groups is wonderful. There's no focus on talking about men, or events related to men. With Merrill, Isabela becomes her surrogate older sister who watches out for her and dispenses life advice earned through her years of experience. With Aveline, Isabela becomes the rival sister, the wild one who argues all the time with her more straight-laced, disapproving sibling, and yet they still appreciate each other for just who they are, and try to help the other in ways they can.

When she does fall in love, it is still entirely within her character and at the same time doesn't feel action-movie rushed. It takes her years to admit her actual feelings, while the other romantic interests contrast this by quick declarations of love. Isabela actually attempts to push Hawke away after their first (on-screen) sexual encounter, and only years later will she admit that she's got feelings. Even then, she stays true to character, deliberately not using the word "love", because of how unsure she is. Her romance feels like a romance of equals. She doesn't treat Hawke like some sort of emotional foundation. It's a balanced relationship, with both characters daring the other to keep up, and I found that incredibly refreshing.

Now... on their own, each of these qualities would be just an interesting aspect to an otherwise rather stock character. But because they're all aspects of the same character, and they require more careful observation over the course of the game, if you pay attention, you discover multiple facets of her character that come out in her interactions with different people, and that gives a more interesting view of her, because that's how many humans are in real life. She's not a character that can be embodied in a single defining aspect, but a complex character with flaws and emotions, who reacts in different ways depending on who and what she is dealing with. The fact that she is all of these things and still proudly has lady parts is what makes her feminist.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 27 février 2012 - 03:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

shotgun-shepard wrote...
For example, I romance Isabela with a gay LadyHawke, so this affects my head-canon because I assume Isabela has spent so much time objectifying and using men, that she accidentaly let a lady-loving lady past her defences.

Would that make her a more or less likely feminist figure than one who romanced male Hawke?

Would objectifying and using men make her a feminist figure? No, not at all.

[shotgun-shepard]

Thanks everyone great stuff.

@ Maria Caliban: I agree with you. I was more asking about how the gender of Hawke affects our reading of her, rather than suggesting that her 'objectifying men' makes her a feminist. That notion is just part of my own personal head-canon and I understand it has negative connotations and certainly isn't a defining feature of feminism, I was simply using it as an example of how much sway head-canon can have.

My post is a bit hard to understand, like I said I'm still working out the kinks and it was a 'train of thought post'...in the morning, I'll try to make it clearer.

Modifié par shotgun-shepard, 27 février 2012 - 07:59 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sorry for misreading you. I look forward to your next post.

As for head-canon, I'm don't believe it affects my reading of Isabela as a feminist character, no. My reading of her as a romantic character, yes.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

shotgun-shepard wrote...
For example, I romance Isabela with a gay LadyHawke, so this affects my head-canon because I assume Isabela has spent so much time objectifying and using men, that she accidentaly let a lady-loving lady past her defences.

Would that make her a more or less likely feminist figure than one who romanced male Hawke?

Would objectifying and using men make her a feminist figure? No, not at all.

There's some element of role-reversal here, as the man is traditionally the one doing the objectifying. I don't know whether you'd consider this "feminist", but there are some feminist elements to a woman undertaking a traditionally-male role.

[Maria Caliban]

That's a good point. Feminism wants women to have sexual agency, which is not the same as agreeing with whatever they do with that agency.

It's a bit like Phyllis Schlafly. She was a conservative activist and lawyer that believed feminism was ruining American women and that women's natural, god-ordained place was in the home. At the same time, she was a pioneer for women in politics. Sarah Palin, Suzanne Venker, and Michelle Bachmann all benefit from her work because she helped carve out a place for women in the Republican party.

I'd suggest that some traditionally-male roles are inherently harmful. Even when a women adopts them, they support the mechanism of patriarchy. Objectifying or using men might benefit a specific woman, but it also reproduces a relationship between the sexes that harms men and women.

[shotgun-shepard]

Again, really good points, particularly the part about sexual agency and how it can be misused (which I personally think it is by Isabela, but that is just the nature of who she is). I have detailed the argument about her clothes being too revealing vs. a means of sexual manipulation, I thought this was somewhat safer ground than applying the idea to sex itself, since I only have 1000 words...

I've now done a very rough first draft, although I still need to steer it towards expalining how applying feminism helps/sheds new light on her character.
I have pretty much stayed clear of giving specific examples of head-canon, rather highlighted it as a problem that can make drawing conclusions difficult.

Although I know you've probably said this before Hooray, but can you remind me why you only use LadyHawke when romancing Isabela?
I could do with fleshing out my above argument with an example, so that I can then justify focusing on Isabela's interaction with other characters rather than the main one.

[hoorayforicecream]

I originally played lady Hawke primarily because I liked her delivery better than dude Hawke. She was a lot more consistent in her delivery between the three personality types, and I thought she had a better accent. Then Isabela glommed on to the snarky Lady Hawke I played, and the repartee between them went together like peanut butter and jelly. Different, but so good together that they ended up practically inseparable.

It was further cemented in my mind because of the little differences between lady Hawke and dude Hawke's interactions with Isabela. After the first romantic encounter, Isabela says to dudeHawke "It was just rutting", like she's dismissing it. With lady Hawke, she still extends the invitation to continue ("If you ever want to do it again..."). Then there's the scene in Mark of the Assassin... Isabela just laughs it off when Tallis flirts with a male Hawke in the cave, but she visibly gets jealous of a lady Hawke. In my mind it just reinforces that she just feels closer to a feminine Hawke than a masculine one.