6837 réponses à ce sujet

[Chicken Fried Rice]

Isabela is badass good. lol



prolly should get thread back on track

[Leonia]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Actually, could the Warden even be considered unequivocally good?

Now there is a good question. The Wardens must do whatever it takes to stop the Blight, that makes them pretty "grey". But The Warden in particular? Depends on conversation choices, I guess. We'll never know for sure since there is no hard morality metre to measure against in Origins. I'd have to say that the Wardens as a whole are more Chaotic Good than Lawful or Neutral Good though. Maybe some are more Neutral.

Modifié par leonia42, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Maria Caliban]

Saibh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Actually, could the Warden even be considered unequivocally good?

If you RP her so, sure.

How would you role-play the Anvil in an unequivocally good way? Or the choice with the desire demon and the Templar in the Circle Tower? Or the dwarven king?

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
She even tries to tell the Guardian he's wrong. The woman thinks she's a freaking saint.

On one hand she is all "Mages and priests should get along and the Circle is necessary" on the other she's all "I think I enjoy not being in the Circle, I'll just never go back but keeping telling other mages they should stay there."

Well no one is perfect. But she's only even allowed out of the ciricle because she's already done her time there and earned the trust. They were going to make her first enchanter, remember? You act like she's running away like an apostate.

...That's not really the point. She preaches on how good the Circle is, how mages should all be a part of it, and how it's necessary for them to stay in the Tower..and then breaks the rules herself and goes on and does whatever she pleases. How can she blame my non-blood mage apostate for not wanting to rejoin the Circle when she doesn't herself? Why not lead by example, you old harpy?

Oh, and she cries foul when you corrupt the Ashes, but barely bats an eye when you slaughter a group of elves.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I prefer Anora over an 'unequivocally' good character. The only way to be unequivocally good in Thedas is to never have to make a difficult decision.

So do I.  In fact I'm rereading my Anora GameFAQs thread and I'm enjoying my own year-old arguments tremendously.  There has to be a psychological condition associated with that.  Or one of the seven deadly sins.

[Saibh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Actually, could the Warden even be considered unequivocally good?

If you RP her so, sure.

How would you role-play the Anvil in an unequivocally good way? Or the choice with the desire demon and the Templar in the Circle Tower? Or the dwarven king?

Well, you must make a choice. Unless you think the good thing to do is walk away, using the Anvil is a cruel but pragmatic thing to do, going to the Circle and defeating the Desire Demon is the good thing to do, and the dwarven king is ambiguous. There's no "right" or "wrong". Perhaps Harrowmont is correct by a "good" character's glance.

You're not evil for not doing those things, but those are the morally sound choices.

EDIT: Whoopsie, I didn't notice the "and the Templar in the Circle Tower" bit. My bad! Again, that one is ambiguous. The thing is if there's no right or wrong, then there's no "good" way to do it. That doesn't mean your character isn't good.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Leonia]

the_one_54321 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
She even tries to tell the Guardian he's wrong. The woman thinks she's a freaking saint.

On one hand she is all "Mages and priests should get along and the Circle is necessary" on the other she's all "I think I enjoy not being in the Circle, I'll just never go back but keeping telling other mages they should stay there."

Well no one is perfect. But she's only even allowed out of the ciricle because she's already done her time there and earned the trust. They were going to make her first enchanter, remember? You act like she's running away like an apostate.

She kind of is a bit of an apostate but because she's sucked up to the Chantry her whole life, they're more tolerant of her behaviour. None of her epilogue put her back at the Circle except if sh takes on First Enchanter and even then I think it mentions she doesn't hang around much. But she does a pretty good job of dictating what mages should and shouldn't do without following her own recommendations. Also, someone mentioned all her preaching about the Grey Wardens when she isn't a Warden, that's a huge sticking point. She's even aware of how her preachiness pushes people away, given the apprentice that she scares off and you have to talk for her personal sidequest. Even the Guardian calls her out on how she tries to tell people how they should do things when she doesn't do them herself. It's fairly aggravating, even if she generally has a good heart and seems compassionate and good. 

Modifié par leonia42, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Maria Caliban]

I got along perfectly with Wynne. And Morrigan. Alistiar, Sten, Zevran. And Anora never betrayed me. And Ser Cauthren knelt before me and begged me to save Ferelden.

[Brockololly]

Chicken Fried Rice wrote...

Leliana is freakn manipulative, look how easily she convinced Carol at the mage tower

Morrigan does it better

the_one_54321 wrote...
If
you're going to look at all women in the game indiscriminately, Flemeth
is definitely the strongest. Not "good." But strongest.

Except for the bit where Flemeth isn't even truly human....

[Ortaya Alevli]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I prefer Anora over an 'unequivocally' good character. The only way to be unequivocally good in Thedas is to never have to make a difficult decision.

So do I.  In fact I'm rereading my Anora GameFAQs thread and I'm enjoying my own year-old arguments tremendously.  There has to be a psychological condition associated with that.  Or one of the seven deadly sins.

We all love to hear our own voices speak. So to speak.

[Harid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Actually, could the Warden even be considered unequivocally good?

If you RP her so, sure.

How would you role-play the Anvil in an unequivocally good way? Or the choice with the desire demon and the Templar in the Circle Tower? Or the dwarven king?

Kill Branka, destroy anvil, Kill the templar when the Demon turns him on you,  choose Harrowmont.

I was under the impression that D&D Lawful Good wasn't neccessary making perfect choices that helped everyone perfectly, but rather upholding a certain set of laws, be compassionate, eliminate self interest, and so on.

Modifié par Harid, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[the_one_54321]

My take on Wyne is that it's like the way parents always tell their kids what they should do and what's the right way to do things and how the right is never easy. And of course it's not until the kids is in his 20s or 30s that he finally realizes, hey, mom and dad were right all along!

[Ortaya Alevli]

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.

Not that I hate her or anything.

[Harid]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

[Leonia]

I don't hate Wynne, I just find her inconsistent and I don't want to further her agenda.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

My take on Wyne is that it's like the way parents always tell their kids what they should do and what's the right way to do things and how the right is never easy. And of course it's not until the kids is in his 20s or 30s that he finally realizes, hey, mom and dad were right all along!

Right!

I shouldn't ever go back to the Circle tower, just like Wynne did!

[Saibh]

Harid wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

Oghren and Zevran are unapologetic, but not self-righteous,  I think.

[the_one_54321]

Harid wrote...
Kill Branka, destroy anvil, Kill the templar when the Demon turns him on you,  choose Harrowmont.

Yeah, all those choices seemed really obvious black-and-white to me as well.

The anvil kills people to make them into weapons and has already been used on the unwilling.

You can't know that the templar wouldn't want you release him and you can't know that he's going to attack you when you do. I specifically focussed on only attacking the demon until she was dead and I realized he was not going to stop.

I can't remember the other guy's name off hand, but you catch him spreading blatant lies about Harrowmont and otherwise engaging in dastardly deeds. Plus you can determine that the king genuinely supported Harrowmont.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Harid wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

Zevran and Oghren, off the top of my head. Wynne's self-righteousness stands out, though. It even has its distinctive smell.

EDIT: Too many ninjas for me to handle today.

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Saibh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Actually, could the Warden even be considered unequivocally good?

If you RP her so, sure.

How would you role-play the Anvil in an unequivocally good way? Or the choice with the desire demon and the Templar in the Circle Tower? Or the dwarven king?

Well, you must make a choice. Unless you think the good thing to do is walk away, using the Anvil is a cruel but pragmatic thing to do, going to the Circle and defeating the Desire Demon is the good thing to do, and the dwarven king is ambiguous. There's no "right" or "wrong". Perhaps Harrowmont is correct by a "good" character's glance.

You're not evil for not doing those things, but those are the morally sound choices.

'Cruel but pragmatic' is hardly 'unequivocally good.' It's more 'I'm willing to let others die and have their soul trapped for all eternity because it helps me fulfill my duty.'

I'd argue that one of the themes of the game is that if we have power, we can never be unequivocally good.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Harid]

Saibh wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

Oghren and Zevran are unapologetic, but not self-righteous,  I think.

They both can be, given certain choices you make (Destroying the anvil and accepting Caldrius' offer, respectively.)

[upsettingshorts]

Good vs. bad isn't about ends, it's about means.  The fact Harrowmont makes a ****** poor ruler compared to Bhelan doesn't change the fact that putting Harrowmont on the throne is what a good person would probably do.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[the_one_54321]

Saibh wrote...
I shouldn't ever go back to the Circle tower, just like Wynne did!

And who tells you that you should? Ever?

[Leonia]

Harid wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

According to the toolset, Teagan is the only selfless character in the game. Not quite the same as not being self-righteous, but close.