6837 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Good vs. bad isn't about ends, it's about means.

Exactly! You don't know how things are going to end. You just approach every situation as justly as you possibly can.

[upsettingshorts]

leonia42 wrote...
According to the toolset, Teagan is the only selfless character in the game. Not quite the same as not being self-righteous, but close.

There's a toggle for Selfless?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Harid wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

Oghren and Zevran are unapologetic, but not self-righteous,  I think.

They both can be, given certain choices you make (Destroying the anvil and accepting Caldrius' offer, respectively.)

Care to elaborate?

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

You can't know that the templar wouldn't want you release him and you can't know that he's going to attack you when you do. I specifically focussed on only attacking the demon until she was dead and I realized he was not going to stop.

But you're murdering a man for what, by all evidence, was his choice. And the Desire Demon makes it clear that she's not going to give him up--I say it's pretty obvious she'd use him to attack. The way I see it, it leans towards "good" to kill him because you can say that she's just going to suck him dry and then go on to someone else. If she lived and died by him, it's a bit like a euthanasia debate about "putting people out of their misery" or perhaps a debate about the morality of removing life support from a comatose man.

I can't remember the other guy's name off hand, but you catch him spreading blatant lies about Harrowmont and otherwise engaging in dastardly deeds. Plus you can determine that the king genuinely supported Harrowmont.

Harrowmont spreads lies and misinformation about Bhelen, too. And, sure, Endrin wanted Harrowmont to be king--but Bhelen actually turns out to be a better ruler. I think this is the only truly neutral choice in DAO.

Partially because they offered you so little information about either candidate before making your choice.

[Maria Caliban]

[quote]leonia42 wrote...


According to the toolset, Teagan is the only selfless character in the game. Not quite the same as not being self-righteous, but close.[/quote]

I'm sure he was selfless when he slept with his brother's wife.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[/quote]There's a toggle for Selfless? [/quote]
Yes. Only Syvius can use it, but he doesn't because selflessness is illogical.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Leonia]

Maria Caliban wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


According to the toolset, Teagan is the only selfless character in the game. Not quite the same as not being self-righteous, but close.

I'm sure he was selfless when he slept with his brother's wife.

Pft. I'm not convinced that actually happened.

[Saibh]

Harid wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Harid wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Wynne is self-righteous, to put it lightly.
Not that I hate her or anything.

Who isn't self rightous outside of the Dog in DA:O?

Oghren and Zevran are unapologetic, but not self-righteous,  I think.

They both can be, given certain choices you make (Destroying the anvil and accepting Caldrius' offer, respectively.)

Having an opinion about something isn't the same as self-righteous. Oghren mostly objects to you killing his wife, but sees your side pretty quickly. Zevran is hesitant about defending the elves, and dislikes what you're doing, but isn't too vocal, either.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I shouldn't ever go back to the Circle tower, just like Wynne did!

And who tells you that you should? Ever?

Wynne. She does. Hypocrite.

[Leonia]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
According to the toolset, Teagan is the only selfless character in the game. Not quite the same as not being self-righteous, but close.

There's a toggle for Selfless?

Not a toggle, but this is the description for the VO for Teagan:

He is valiant and good-natured, perhaps one of the few truly selfless characters in the entire game. He is fully aware of his short-comings and has no illusions that he is the hero who will save the day -- he wants only for those he cares about to come out of this safely. If he is angered by anything it is by the treachery he sees in Loghain and those like him.

[Saibh]

leonia42 wrote...

Pft. I'm not convinced that actually happened.

Probably because there's no real evidence that he did. I mean, I thought so too when I saw them. I thought for sure that Isolde and Teagan contrived to poison Eamon and marry each other and rule Redcliffe together. They seemed so oddly intimate with each other. But there's nothing in the toolset about it, and Isolde only shows concern for her husband.

[upsettingshorts]

Thats cool, thanks. I never installed the toolset.

[Maria Caliban]

Wynne is a sweetie. She tried to tell me to dump Leliana but eventually saw the error of her ways and apologized.

Also, that Guardian was talking smack. Some of his views might have been right on, but I don't think that Wynne or Leliana's were. I liked how Morrigan shut him down.

[mellifera]

My favorite is when Wynne tells Aneirin to go back to the Circle. Yes, the place he hated so much he ran away and was practically killed and left for dead over escaping. He should totally go back and submit himself to the templars... he doesn't even react unfavorably, but that she would suggest such a thing just baffles me.

[Leonia]

yukidama wrote...

My favorite is when Wynne tells Aneirin to go back to the Circle. Yes, the place he hated so much he ran away and was practically killed and left for dead over escaping. He should totally go back and submit himself to the templars... he doesn't even react unfavorably, but that she would suggest such a thing just baffles me.

I wish we were the Warden-Commander at that point in the game and could have conscripted him. He would have had a much better life as a Warden. Or better yet, put Wynne through the Joining and see what the Joining thinks about her. Oh, there's an idea for a fanfic.. 

Also, on the subject of anti-Wynne, I totally loved Ines in Awakening.

Modifié par leonia42, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

yukidama wrote...

My favorite is when Wynne tells Aneirin to go back to the Circle. Yes, the place he hated so much he ran away and was practically killed and left for dead over escaping. He should totally go back and submit himself to the templars... he doesn't even react unfavorably, but that she would suggest such a thing just baffles me.

That's because she's senile, I kid you not.

[Maria Caliban]

I wonder if we'll ever find out the setting logic behind who survives the joining.

[Harid]

Saibh wrote...

Harrowmont spreads lies and misinformation
about Bhelen, too. And, sure, Endrin wanted Harrowmont to be king--but
Bhelen actually turns out to be a better ruler. I think this is the only
truly neutral choice in DAO.

Partially because they offered you so little information about either candidate before making your choice.

This isn't a neutral choice at all, as a good character would choose a good man, and by all intents and purposes,  Bhelen isn't painted as a good person.  A Lawful Good character doesn't metagame to read the future, as far as they know Harrowmont would not be a bad ruler in terms of morals, despite the fact of what he turns out to be in result of your choice.

As for the self righteous thing;

Zevran's feelings on slavery, and Oghren's lack of care for the souls of the living just so he can get what he wants, and his huge disapproval if you choose otherwise.

He also disrespects on your warden if he has not seen you prior to the Deep Roads, even moreso if you are female.

Modifié par Harid, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Harid wrote...

As for the self righteous thing

Zevran's feelings on slavery, and Oghren's lack of care for the souls of the living just so he can get what he wants, and his huge disapproval if you choose otherwise.

He also ****s on your warden if he has not seen you prior to the Deep Roads, even moreso if you are female.

Still can't see what all this has to do with self-righteousness.

[upsettingshorts]

Self-righteousness is the absolute belief in your own moral superiority. I don't get that vibe from Oghren or Zevran, I do from Morrigan and Wynne and plenty others.

Characters you can elect to harden or not (Leliana and Alistair) almost don't qualify, really, even if they are in their own way quite dogmatic.  They are by definition open to re-examining their views.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[mellifera]

leonia42 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

My favorite is when Wynne tells Aneirin to go back to the Circle. Yes, the place he hated so much he ran away and was practically killed and left for dead over escaping. He should totally go back and submit himself to the templars... he doesn't even react unfavorably, but that she would suggest such a thing just baffles me.

I wish we were the Warden-Commander at that point in the game and could have conscripted him. He would have had a much better life as a Warden. Or better yet, put Wynne through the Joining and see what the Joining thinks about her. Oh, there's an idea for a fanfic.. 

Also, on the subject of anti-Wynne, I totally loved Ines in Awakening.

I think he was fine where he was, where he chose to be *shrug*

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Self-righteousness is the absolute belief in your own moral superiority. I don't get that vibe from Oghren or Zevran, I do from Morrigan and Wynne and plenty others.

Then I'd add Leliana and Garrus.

-----------------------
Quick Question: You're about start an epic quest to defeat the Archdemon Reaper and can take any five followers from any BioWare game. (+ KotOR 2 and NWN 2)

Which would you pick?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Harid]

If you disagree with someone for choosing to kill slaves because you yourself don't believe that those slaves deserve the fate you are giving to them, you are self righteous. His moral feeling on slavery versus yours.

As for Oghren. . .suppose you have a point.

I know what self-righteousness is.

As for Leliana. .. denigrate her faith and yeah, she is self righteous.  Even post hardening her beliefs in her faith don't change, tell her that Andraste was pointless post the Urn of Sacred Ashes and see yourself.

Though that could be due more to bad coding than anything else.

Modifié par Harid, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Saibh]

Harid wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Harrowmont spreads lies and misinformation
about Bhelen, too. And, sure, Endrin wanted Harrowmont to be king--but
Bhelen actually turns out to be a better ruler. I think this is the only
truly neutral choice in DAO.

Partially because they offered you so little information about either candidate before making your choice.

This
isn't a neutral choice at all, as a good character would choose a good
man, and by all intents and purposes,  Bhelen isn't painted as a good
person.  A Lawful Good character doesn't
metagame to read the future, as far as they know Harrowmont would not be
a bad ruler in terms of morals, despite the fact of what he turns out
to be in result of your choice.

Well...the way I think of it is that my purely good character on her first playthrough picked Bhelen because we learned next to nothing about either candidate. What made it for me was the references to Bhelen being kinder to the casteless and more progressive.

I didn't know a thing about what Harrowmont would do or really what he was like besides a generic "good man" and that he was traditionalist, and since I thought the "traditional" dwarven society was pretty brutal, I couldn't pick him.

As for the self righteous thing

Zevran's feelings on slavery, and Oghren's lack of care for the souls of the living just so he can get what he wants, and his huge disapproval if you choose otherwise.

He also ****s on your warden if he has not seen you prior to the Deep Roads, even moreso if you are female.

...But that's not self-righteous. Besides that, Oghren takes a -10 approval for killing his wife. Which can be made back a few minutes later by asking what he wants from Caridin. Alistair can take a massive -40 (perhaps more) for killing Connor or Isolde. And you can actually destroy the Anvil and not personally kill Branka, too, by the way. Oghren wants you to let Branka live, but he agrees the Anvil is a bad thing, and sides with you pretty quickly. That doesn't mean he enjoys you killing his wife.

And the last part isn't really intentional. He praises his idea of a Warden, and is disappointed with what he got. He wasn't actively trying to insult you, really.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Self-righteousness is the absolute belief in your own moral superiority. I don't get that vibe from Oghren or Zevran, I do from Morrigan and Wynne and plenty others.

Characters you can elect to harden or not (Leliana and Alistair) almost don't qualify, really, even if they are in their own way quite dogmatic.  They are by definition open to re-examining their views.

If only Ali were open to re-examining his views on conscripting Loghain...

Still, no self-righteousness. More like confusion under excessive emotional stress.

[upsettingshorts]

Harid wrote...
As for Leliana. .. denigrate her faith and yeah, she is self righteous.

Um, you're denigrating her faith.  I think anyone, self-righteous or not, would be offended and defensive. 

The fact she can be hardened or not sort of pokes a big hole in her righteousness.  Her moral position is objectively open to re-interpretation.  Same with Alistair. 

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
If only Ali were open to re-examining his views on conscripting Loghain...

Still, no self-righteousness. More like confusion under excessive emotional stress.

Good counter-example.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:15 .