6837 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Harid wrote...

If you disagree with someone for choosing to kill slaves because you yourself don't believe that those slaves deserve the fate you are giving to them, you are self righteous. His moral feeling on slavery versus yours.

...Having an opinion =/= self-righteous.

That would make everyone ever self-righteous.

[Chicken Fried Rice]

I just watched the Zev threesome video and Zev said Isabela's husband tried to kill him? so i guess Isabela was cheating on her husband.

[Leonia]

I kind of want to go back to talking about how awesome Isabela is now..

[Harid]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Harid wrote...
As for Leliana. .. denigrate her faith and yeah, she is self righteous.

Um, you're denigrating her faith.  I think anyone, self-righteous or not, would be offended and defensive. 

The fact she can be hardened or not sort of pokes a big hole in her righteousness.  Her moral position is objectively open to re-interpretation.  Same with Alistair. 

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
If only Ali were open to re-examining his views on conscripting Loghain...

Still, no self-righteousness. More like confusion under excessive emotional stress.

Good counter-example.  

Perhaps denigrate was too strong a word.

You tell her what does Andraste's urn matter if she can speak to the maker.

She says that's how faith works, and just because her vison of the maker makes Andraste stating the maker has abandoned them as false, she still has magical powers as a wife of the maker.

You tell her she needs to reevaluate her faith.

She says faith doesn't need to make sense.

No matter what you try to convince her of, she doesn't change her ideas on her faith.  I just. . .can't let her slide on this one.  If she wasn't self righteous about her faith she would see the lack of logic in her train of thought.

Not saying an opinion makes you self righteous, I'm saying that opinion does.  His opinion of slavery wasn't pertinent at that time.

Modifié par Harid, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:21 .

[Ulicus]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Self-righteousness is the absolute belief in your own moral superiority. I don't get that vibe from Oghren or Zevran, I do from Morrigan and Wynne and plenty others.

Characters you can elect to harden or not (Leliana and Alistair) almost don't qualify, really, even if they are in their own way quite dogmatic.  They are by definition open to re-examining their views.

If only Ali were open to re-examining his views on conscripting Loghain...

He is.

You just have to harden him, fall out with him as he becomes King and then allow Loghain to make the ultimate sacrifice. Then, and only then, does he think conscripting Loghain was probably for the best.

[Maria Caliban]

Isabela is laid back unless you criticize her ship. Doesn't matter if it's bashed to bit on Kirkwall's cliffs, it's still the finest ship on the ocean!

[Ortaya Alevli]

Harid wrote...

Perhaps denigrate was too strong a word.

You tell her what does Andraste's urn matter if she can speak to the maker.

She says that's how faith works.

You tell her she needs to reevaluate her faith.

She says faith doesn't need to make sense.

No matter what you try to convince her of, she doesn't change her ideas on her faith.  I just. . .can't let her slide on this one.  If she wasn't self righteous about her faith she would see the lack of logic in her train of thought.

You know, we both are self-righteous by that logic, seeing that we're still trying to defend our own respective arguments even after so many posts.

[upsettingshorts]

Harid wrote...
She says faith doesn't need to make sense.

She's right.  In fact, by challenging her to accept your logic, your Warden is the one being self-righteous.  Plus, I think that pouring a cult's dragon blood on the urn of the prophet of anyone's faith is a pretty justifiable reason for them to get extremely angry.

leonia42 wrote...

I kind of want to go back to talking about how awesome Isabela is now..

I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out she is the least self-righteous character in a Bioware game, ever.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Edit: One of the things I liked about Leliana was that she was passionate about her faith without being dogmatic or self-righteous.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Leonia]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Edit: One of the things I liked about Leliana was that she was both passionate about her faith without being dogmatic or self-righteous.

She's only Andrastian on Sundays and holidays.

[Chicken Fried Rice]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Edit: One of the things I liked about Leliana was that she was both passionate about her faith without being dogmatic or self-righteous.

prolly not, Rivain has some over the top beliefs according to the codex

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Two theories:

She's agnostic.  Or pragmatic.

Chicken Fried Rice wrote...

prolly not, Rivain has some over the top beliefs according to the codex

Or whatever the Codex says, the GUI was way too clunky for me to bother with.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Icinix]

...she doesn't seem like the type who would believe in the maker.



...but then again. Neither did Alistair. Wonder if she's as superstitious as old sailors?

You know, throw salt over a cat walking under a ladder before getting on land or something.

[Harid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Edit: One of the things I liked about Leliana was that she was passionate about her faith without being dogmatic or self-righteous.

Doesn't she question Morrigan about this in party banter?

• Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
• Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.
• Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits,
  magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You
  know these things exist.
• Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
• Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
• Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic.
• Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.
• Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

I mean, come on people.  Telling a non religious person that they must be lonely without the maker in their life is the very definition of self righteousness, as that's the same bs that Christians throw at atheists in real life.

Modifié par Harid, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

No comment on her faith, or lack thereof, but I have a lot to say about her morals, or lack thereof.

[Maria Caliban]

"Unlike the majority of peoples in Thedas, the Rivaini are not Andrastians and don't believe in the Maker. Rather, they are pantheists who believe in the Natural Order. Many, especially in Kont-aar, have also converted to the Qun, as their religion and the Qun are not very contradictory."

[upsettingshorts]

Harid wrote...
I mean, come on people.

The fact you can convince her that she was basically making it all up to liven up her boring Chantry escapism makes it all moot, does it not?

[Leonia]

Harid wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Edit: One of the things I liked about Leliana was that she was passionate about her faith without being dogmatic or self-righteous.

Doesn't she question Morrigan about this in party banter?

• Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
• Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.
• Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits,
  magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You
  know these things exist.
• Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
• Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
• Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic.
• Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.
• Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

I mean, come on people.

What does this remotely have to do with Isabela?

[mellifera]

Rivaini religion seems fairly shamanistic to me, if we go by the codex.

Modifié par yukidama, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Icinix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Harid wrote...
I mean, come on people.

The fact you can convince her that she was basically making it all up to liven up her boring Chantry escapism makes it all moot, does it not?

....why...why would anyone do that?

Cruel, cruel people.

[upsettingshorts]

Icinix wrote...

....why...why would anyone do that?

Cruel, cruel people.

So they can continue sleeping with her when they become King/Queen?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Harid wrote...

Doesn't she question Morrigan about this in party banter?

• Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
• Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.
• Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits,
  magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You
  know these things exist.
• Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
• Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
• Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic.
• Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.
• Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

I mean, come on people.

That's discussion, not imposition.

[upsettingshorts]

yukidama wrote...

Rivaini religion seems fairly shamanistic to me, if we go by the codex.

Here's the opening paragraph for the Wiki for "pantheism" - as the term used for Rivaini religion that Maria posted:

Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical.[1] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god. The word derives from the Ancient Greek: πᾶν (pan) meaning ‘all’ and θεός (theos) meaning ‘God’. As such, Pantheism denotes the idea that “God” is best seen as a way of relating to the Universe.[2] Although there are divergences within Pantheism, the central ideas found in almost all versions are the Cosmos as an all-encompassing unity and the sacredness of Nature.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[the_one_54321]

What's wrong with being slefrighteous anyway? Good people will always try to convince others to be good, and not good people will always be pissed off by it unless they come around.

[Harid]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Harid wrote...
I mean, come on people.

The fact you can convince her that she was basically making it all up to liven up her boring Chantry escapism makes it all moot, does it not?

You got a quote on this?  I always harden Leliana and I don't recall this popping up, ever.  She doesn't disapprove your choices but seems to have the same opinions on the maker.

As for Isabela, I hope she gives greater insight into the Riviani, but she is just one person, and as such, can only do so much.