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[Maria Caliban]

Harid wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wonder if Isabela believes in the Maker?

Edit: One of the things I liked about Leliana was that she was passionate about her faith without being dogmatic or self-righteous.

Doesn't she question Morrigan about this in party banter?


I mean, come on people.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove here. She's having a conversation with an *apostate* about how her magic might be evidence of the Maker's existence. She then asks if Morrigan doesn't think the same, and when Morrigan says 'no,' she comments that she thinks that all of them coming together is part of the Maker's will.

That's not dogmatic or self-righteous.

[Harid]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What's wrong with being slefrighteous anyway? Good people will always try to convince others to be good, and not good people will always be pissed off by it unless they come around.

Wait, wut?  Unless this is a "I see what you did there kinda thing".

As for the last point people seem to be missing:

• Leliana: Let me ask you this, then, Morrigan. What if there really was a Maker?
• Morrigan: Then I would wonder why He has abandoned His creation. It seems terribly irresponsible of Him.
• Leliana: He left us because we were determined to make our own way, even if we hurt outselves, and He could not bear to watch.
• Morrigan: But how do you know? You cannot ask Him this.
  Perhaps He has gone to a new creation elsewhere, and abandoned this as a
  dismal failure, best forgotten.
• Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.
• Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word.
• Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
• Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it
  and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for
  your higher power, there it is.
• Leliana: But only if you can control it. I do not envy the loneliness you must feel at times Morrigan.
• Morrigan: I... leave me be. Loneliness would be preferred to this... endless chatter.

You are lonely without the Maker in your life, I am not self righteous, though!

Modifié par Harid, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:34 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What's wrong with being slefrighteous anyway? Good people will always try to convince others to be good, and not good people will always be pissed off by it unless they come around.

Not all good people share the same beliefs. Nor do all good people enjoy opinions being imposed upon themselves.

[Icinix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So they can continue sleeping with her when they become King/Queen?

Oh. Didn't think about that.  Valid reason then.

[the_one_54321]

Goodness by it's nature desires to spread. And madness by it's nature avoids judgment.



Please note that this statement has no attachment to religion or such beliefs just because Leliana is a religious character.

[the_one_54321]

*badness not madness. Stupid phone.

[mellifera]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Rivaini religion seems fairly shamanistic to me, if we go by the codex.

Here's the opening paragraph for the Wiki for "pantheism" - as the term used for Rivaini religion that Maria posted:

Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical.[1] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god. The word derives from the Ancient Greek: πᾶν (pan) meaning ‘all’ and θεός (theos) meaning ‘God’. As such, Pantheism denotes the idea that “God” is best seen as a way of relating to the Universe.[2] Although there are divergences within Pantheism, the central ideas found in almost all versions are the Cosmos as an all-encompassing unity and the sacredness of Nature.

Was more addressing the codex bit that says:
"The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed."

But shamanism isn't really a set, specific thing since many cultures have their variants. There is usually additional belief systems in place alongside it, so it could be a mix of things.

Modifié par yukidama, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[the_one_54321]

I dislike using the word evil to juxtapose good. Bad is more fitting.

[Ortaya Alevli]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Goodness by it's nature desires to spread. And madness by it's nature avoids judgment.

Please note that this statement has no attachment to religion or such beliefs just because Leliana is a religious character.

It often backfires when you try to spread goodness with a hammer and nail.

Not restricted to "beliefs". Also encompasses all manner of opinions, views, claims, arguments and whatnot.

[the_one_54321]

It does often backfire. But not being able to win is not an adequate reason to stop trying. It's best to be nice about it as much as you can.

[Sheryl Chee]

yukidama wrote...

My favorite is when Wynne tells Aneirin to go back to the Circle. Yes, the place he hated so much he ran away and was practically killed and left for dead over escaping. He should totally go back and submit himself to the templars... he doesn't even react unfavorably, but that she would suggest such a thing just baffles me.

She doesn't want him to go back in order to submit. She wants him to go back, and with her help, teach the Circle and the templars about the mistake they made. She believes that other mages can learn from Aneirin's life experiences. When she tells the Warden to return to the Circle, this is also what she means.  Whether she has any right to ask this is debatable. She does love the sound of her own voice.  But Wynne technically isn't free or an apostate. She operates under the auspices of the Circle. She does ask for permission from the Circle to go with the Warden. 

She doesn't think the Circle is perfect, it's just the best option the mages have. She detests the thought of having ill-educated mages (see: Jowan) blundering about the world giving everyone a bad name. The more this happens, the more the general populace hate and fear mages and so on and so forth. To her mind, releasing all mages telling them to fly and be free would be a disaster. The only solution is education--teach mages to control their powers, and people will eventually learn that they can be trusted. Only a large organization like the Circle is capable of this. 


But anyway, I shouldn't derail this further. Isabela is not self-righteous. 

[Ortaya Alevli]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It does often backfire. But not being able to win is not an adequate reason to stop trying. It's best to be nice about it as much as you can.

Exactly the point. That's where self-righteousness misses the shot. The element of being nice and understanding, the element of open-mindedness.

A person may have strong opinions and even be quite vocal about them, but that's not a bad thing in itself. Problem arises when they assume this "I command you to see eye to eye with me!" position.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I wonder if Isabela is at all influenced by the gypsie Carmen from the opera Carmen by Georges Bizet.
La Habanera is exactly how I see Isabela's views on love.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sheryl Chee wrote...
Isabela is not self-righteous. 

That's a shame.  I was hoping she would force her free-spirited, uninhibited ways upon my Hawke.  Preferably twice a day or more.

I would protest of course, but it would be futile.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[the_one_54321]

Wyne is made of win.

[namedforthemoon]

So if Isabela is bi-sexual (and we know that she is, because of her threesome-foursome bit at the Pearl), and actually has a romantic relationship with Hawke, I know what her gift would be for Lady Hawke.



A few hints... It's smooth, and it vibrates. And it rhymes with callous.

[Ortaya Alevli]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Wyne is made of win.

I thought it was made of "blessed"...things you learn everyday!

[the_one_54321]

@Ortaya Any time you try to convince someone they should do something good it will ****** them off. That kind of confrontation is unavoidable. This is a generalization thus is not true 100% of the time.

[Saibh]

filaminstrel wrote...

A chalice? :3

Solid matter, after all, is constantly vibrating.

Clearly Isabela would give her Lady Hawke a palace.

[Chicken Fried Rice]

my male hawke will totally give her his dick in a box. lol

[Ortaya Alevli]

the_one_54321 wrote...

@Ortaya Any time you try to convince someone they should do something good it will ****** them off. That kind of confrontation is unavoidable. This is a generalization thus is not true 100% of the time.

Agreed. And that's why Wynne should learn to mind her own damn business. hehe

[Icinix]

Saibh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

A chalice? :3

Solid matter, after all, is constantly vibrating.

Clearly Isabela would give her Lady Hawke a palace.

My warden would feel much malice.