150 réponses à ce sujet

[Rahzar]

[Edit 1] - I'm Glad this topic started some intelligent debate, hopefully Bioware comes to a decision that supports both the lore and the gameplay aspect of the ammo/weapon heat system as they develop ME3.  Thanks for posting your comments and keeping it a focused discussion.
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Why limited ammo is a good thing:
Limited ammo means people have to conserve it, use different weapons, and use powers more frequently.  In other words, it forces the player to use a variety of tactics, rather than sit there and shoot with the same gun the whole time. 

What should be changed:
More gun-reliant classes like the soldier, vanguard, and maybe the infiltrator should get extra ammo capicity bonuses to make up for their lack of offensive powers.  Since engineers, adepts, and sentinels have enough offensive powers to take out enemies even if they're low on ammo or out of ammo, they wouldn't need these ammo capacity bonuses.
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[Edit 2] - After reading most of the comments on this topic, I've come to a conclusion that the use of thermal clips is fine, but when Shepard runs out of thermal clips, he should put in a piece of metal that gets shaved off each shot (same ammo system as ME1).  However, the overheating aspect of the mechanism could be exagerrated (weapons would overheat very quickly when using the ME1-type unlimited ammo) so that using thermal clips will still be a much better option.  Not to mention the fact that this would likely support why the switch to thermal clips ever took place.

Modifié par Rahzar, 31 octobre 2010 - 05:52 .

[Arbalest7]

I agree, the unlimited ammo of the first game seemed like compensation for the fact that you could barely aim your guns at early levels. Unlimited ammo and ME2's accuracy would have broken the game.

[kalle90]

I still don't like it. Gameplaywise it mushes all the classes: Everyone has to shoot with all weapons and everyone uses powers. Lore-immersionwise it's even worse.



There are better options like slowly regenerating ammo.

[Tinskter78]

I feel that if ammo was unlimited it wouldnt portray a accurate future. By limiting ammo its creates tension and therefore hightens the desicion maikng process.



Maybe an introduction of a laser weapon class that needs time to cool down if fired to much. If the laser gun worked off crystals with a finite power you would still have to have one eye on the depletion level??? If you can buy the crystals needed from selected traders and build it round a story line then i feel it will be well recieved???



?

[Bin1000101]

 You all make valid points and suggestions. My main beef is that in ME codex it explicitly states why ammo is a "non-issue" and to make ammo an "issue" in ME 2 does not make sense. It's like saying here is a wheel, and in the sequel saying "here is the wheel, but you can't use it all the time"  it's slightly paradoxical and a bad decision choice; it takes the game dynamic backwards and contradicts the original design, this is not good for a game design unless you are playing in a pretense situation (a prequel). Also, the fact that using one power negates all powers until they recharge was folly. I'm not sure why BW decided to do this, maybe to make the game feel more like an FPS? that would explain the limited char dev from ME. Perhaps they thought they would have a hard time competing with COD:MW2?, however, these design choices were made way before the actual coding of the game took place, so this is speculation. I'm wondering if "state of the art weaponry" came about because of the events in ME? I've never run out of ammo in my ME2 playings, but that is because I had the collector particle beam and knew when to use it, but I did have a scare in "overlord" at the end.Since I play an infiltrator and use the locust, if I didn't have the collector beam, I would have run out of ammo, mainly because I didn't worry about they Geth that spawned (I was playing on Veteran). They do make ammo plentiful, just laying around, but when I clear a room with 10+ enemies I'd expect more than 1 or none "thermal clips" to hit the ground.

[Rahzar]

kalle90 wrote...

I still don't like it. Gameplaywise it mushes all the classes: Everyone has to shoot with all weapons and everyone uses powers. Lore-immersionwise it's even worse.

There are better options like slowly regenerating ammo.

You have a point - everyone basically does have to shoot with most of their weapons and use powers, but it's the difference in weapon focus (like vanguard - shotgun, infiltrator - sniper, soldier - probably assault rifle) and all the different powers that keep it from "mushing" the classes.  (The 3 gun-dependent classes do have a main weapon imo, even if they don't get to use it every second).  Not to mention it would take away a lot of the variety in combat if every class just used one weapon.

As for lore/immersion, I really don't care if the ammo system doesn't totally make sense in the story.  Ammo is such a minor detail as far as story goes, I really don't understand why it should ruin that aspect of the game either way. 

Eh, I don't think I like the idea of slowly regenerating ammo.   I guess they could be a little more generous with ammo drops from enemies.  That could help with ammo limitations.  However, I still don't think they need to make any significant changes to the ammo system.

[Bin1000101]

Yup, ME codex states how ammo is taken care of, to need "thermal clips" is still a backward step

[Terror_K]

The problem with it forcing me to change weapons is that I don't actually want that. It limits the amount of different builds and Shepards I can have in the game because every one of every class ends up the same. In ME1 I had a Pistol Vanguard and a Shotgun Vanguard, both of whom were built differently and both of whom played differently. Now I import them into ME2 and they're both pretty much the same, because I end up having to use both weapon classes now anyway.



I don't want to use a Shotgun with my Pistol Vanguard and visa versa so that I can use it with my alternate playthrough, but now my alternate has become redundant and pointless, thus limiting gameplay and roleplaying overall. It's a classic case of ME2 restricting you where it should give you freedom while it gives you freedom when it should restrict you.

[Rahzar]

In response to NewMessageN00b:
Hmm, well I at least agree that the process of actually COLLECTING ammo is not fun in any way. Maybe what they could do is restore a certain percentage of regular ammo and a smaller percentage of heavy weapon ammo after each fight (not after each individual enemy, but after a group of enemies is cleared), rather than having players find and pick up the ammo after the fight. 

Modifié par Rahzar, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Rahzar]

Like I said about the lore/story aspect of the ammo system, yes it's a step back, but you really shouldn't let the ammo system, such a tiny aspect of the story, ruin it for you.

[Rahzar]

Hmm, maybe they could make it so that you have about 3-6 regular weapon slots (# of slots depends on class) and you can choose what type of weapon (be it shotgun, pistol, smg, etc.) goes into that slot. So that they can still keep the variety of weapons, they could limit it to 2 of a particular weapon type.
I agree with Terror_K in that classes end up very similar. Specialization really should have a larger impact on what the class turns into.

Modifié par Rahzar, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:07 .

[Bin1000101]

 I'll put it this way... I'm on my 3rd ME2 playthrough after 2 ME playthroughs, I'm an infiltrator, I chose "reave" as my bonus power and I'm playing on Veteran. I don't have to shoot my gun anymore. I use Grunt and Kasumi (probably the best char in the game, in usefullness). Oh, and I chose "area reave". All I have to do is drop a reave and they clean up, I did the same when I was playing on "insanity", it makes for a fast game, when you just want to mash through it to get a good save for ME3.So I no longer have need for "thermal clips". I played ME1 2 times to get the "rich" status and made some different choices. This ME2 playthrough was almost a new game, lol conrad still made it through. Anyway, if ME codex says ammo is a non-issue, and me2 says we have this tech for ammo and clips are the norm, either way, they will need to bridge the gap it's like a slap in the face, then the perpetrator saying "just seeing if you were paying attention" 

[Terror_K]

Rahzar wrote...

Hmm, maybe they could make it so that you have about 3-6 regular weapon slots (# of slots depends on class) and you can choose what type of weapon (be it shotgun, pistol, smg, etc.) goes into that slot. So that they can still keep the variety of weapons, they could limit it to 2 of a particular weapon type.

That's actually what I'd like to see. Just give us four places to sling our weapons (plus the heavy slot) and let us choose which weapons we want. If I want to take three pistols or three shotguns or two pistols and one shotgun, etc. I should be able to.

[Bin1000101]

 Kinda like how classes are restricted to certain (trained) weapons like in ME? Then I can see why you'd want more than one shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc. Kinda like a hybrid of ME1 and ME2? A certain gun for certain situations? And be able to customize each? That would be cool.

I do feel that ME2 was dumbed down for mass appeal though. Not everyone wants to take the time to customize, remember kotor? The customization was quite.... massive. So since the franchise has become popular, they have to cater to a broader audience. And Time restraints, dev cycles, x-mas game season, etc. that doesn't offer much wiggle room to make an "RPG" version and a dumbed down "Fan" version, unfortunately . I'm also still a little miffed at the "New" char dev scheme, I liked the high level of single dot customization.

Did anyone get my Desu Ex to Deus ex: Invisible war analogy?

[CommanderSheperd117]

personally, i wpuld like a hybrid of both methods. When you use an ammo power, then you start using clips, but when you run out of all those, you have unlimited ammo but only does 75% damage

[Terror_K]

Yeah, I actually see the parallels myself all the time. Funny how Invisible War gets slammed for what it did, yet ME2 does pretty much the same thing and gets lauded for it. Just shows the changing times: visuals aside, if Invisible War was released today it'd probably be considered a masterpiece.

[vehzeel]

Limited ammo is a good way to force you out of cover and take risks. In ME1, you could totally control the battlefield since you basically never had to be mobile. You could just sit behind cover, slap a Singularity and then unleash hell on the poor enemies floating gently through the air.

In ME2, it's not that simple. You have to combine several powers with shooting and move around to keep shooting.

I am however slightly annoyed that a lot of door are locked behind me on so many occasions, with no way to open them again. I want to be able to choose where to fight, and maybe pick up extra clips if I was full before.

[Lumikki]

Limited ammo makes the gameplay better, because it add some "new" limited behavior aspect to gameplay. Players needs to worry about does I have enough ammos. This change players gameplay style better, because player consider more about what weapon use and when. If you have unlimited ammo, player usually ends with one or two "best" weapon and game become more rush like. Best weapon, I mean game become more about find best weapon, than different kind of weapons are tools based situation player is in combat. I would say, unlimited ammo is lazy players choise who doesn't care much about how combat works.

[Jebel Krong]

limited ammo just inhibits certain, specialised, classes and reduces your enjoyment and immersion when you're running around battlefields during/after firefight (and "during-" isn't what you want to be doing) picking up stupid clips. plus you then have to be able to find them in all sorts of places where, realistically you wouldn't be finding them (deserted worlds, geth habitats, a reaper?), purely for the sake of an arbitrary mechanic. the overheat mechanic coupled with non-skill based aiming, me2's level design (especially LoSB), clever enemies and lots of them, will give you all the challenge you need without compromising anything.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:03 .

[The Spamming Troll]

whats this talk of limited ammo? this is like when people complained about the mako sucking or elevator rides being pointless. the mako didnt suck, the terrain you drove on sucks, and elevators were alot more interesting and immersion keepers then loading screens with spinning mue relays.

you dont have limited ammo in ME2. a little flashing red cylinder laying on the ground is never more then a hop skip and a jump away from you anyways. one heat sync gives you ammo for each weapon you carry, but you cant use the ammo from the sniper, in your shotty, evne though its the same frickin thing. its just funny people trying to think what they call "logically" when ME2 weapons make much less sense then ME1 weapons.

i loved overheating weapons in ME1, because i never saw it before. it was something differnet, and most importantly it gave a very distinct feel of combat in ME1. shotting weapons in ME2 feels like gears of war. period.

if you werent allowed to "shoot forever" like some of you CHOSE to do in ME1, then what is the downfall of overheating weapons. thats the only argument ive seen against over heating weapons, so simply elimiatenting that feature would have been the best idea for weapons in ME3. and its not likle your pistol was any better then mine because you could shoot forever. you modded it to shoot forever, while i modded mine to shoot for higher damage with more voerheating. i dont get the problem that you created yourself for overheating weapons in ME1.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[JayhartRIC]

I think the problem is some people are marginal FPS players and are throwing away their ammo. Either that or they aren't switching weapons based on the situation (trying to use a shotgun at range, not using SMG's vs shields)

[kalle90]

The Spamming Troll talks quite well to be a spamming troll.



In the end I just rather "play" Gears over ME2 because the gameplay is better quality, but I also rather play ME1 over ME2 because the gameplay has more options and uniqueness.

[Epic777]

me1 vs me2 round X