150 réponses à ce sujet

[kalle90]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

The thing is, restoring small percentage to ammo is still not it. Heated things always cool down to the temperature of environment (unless there's no atmosphere), so the "small amount limit" is still a hit in the ballsack.

If the clips were an addition to the original system, now that's a different story.

I guess that's a reply to my post. Well the "ammo" would regenerate fully, just slow. And if things can't be perfect (which it can't because the ME2 system is a downgrade realismwise) I hope for a compromise

There was a video about the system I'd want in some other thread. Basically you have 1 clip in weapon and 3 spare clips. The clips heat up when you shoot and you have to switch them for cool ones. The clips cool down when not in use.

It would have reload mechanics and you could be unable to fire if you spam ammo, while getting rid of clip looting, all the illogicalities and allow using the weapons we want. Plus there wouldn't be weapon mods that make weapon unheatable.

[Severyx]

Ammo isn't the correct term, and as people have already mentioned, it's not about ammo, it's about heat. Lore-wise the thermal clips make perfect sense. Gameplay-wise, it's not executed correctly.

First, let's discuss lore. The codex states that the thermal clip technology was developed by the geth and for all intents and purposes stolen to be adapted to mainstream weaponry. Remember, the geth do not need air, and are usually in an atmosphereless environment. Weapons cannot cool down without a medium such as air. As such, the thermal clips absorb and hold generated heat and get ejected before damage occurs. Makes sense, right? Right.

Now what about places within an atmosphere where a cooldown medium is present? That's where the ME1-like weapon system starts. Weapons shoot, generate heat, then take time to cool down. Overuse it, and you have to wait for it return to a safe temperature unless you want to damage your gun. I assume the blaring overheat alarm/automatic ceasefire is a built in safeguard. Makes sense, right? Right.

Problem is, soldiers on the battlefield can't wait for a 'cooldown'. They need to keep using their gun. That is the main reason why thermal clips were integrated into weapon designs. The codex mentions that it takes less than a second to swap out a clip compared to the time it takes to cool down an overheated weapon, which is much longer. This is very much the case.

Now we get to ME2 gameplay, where the thermal clip idea had a novel start, but was poorly executed. They put 'intensifying the combat system' over lore, so it doesn't sit well with a lot of people. What should happen is when the gun is not being fired, the 'shots before clip ejection' should slowly increase up until a general cap for simplicity's sake. If you use up all those shots, a clip gets ejected like normal. When you run out of clips? You have to wait for the cooldown ala ME1.

/thread

[Oblarg]

Ammo did not make ME2 more tactical. Ammo made ME2 more tedious.

[Lumikki]

Oblarg wrote...

Ammo did not make ME2 more tactical. Ammo made ME2 more tedious.

Depense from who you are asking this. In my opinion ME2 ammo limit did make it more tactical, because player will use more different kind of weapons that way. Choosing correct weapon in correct situation is also tactics. How ever, these different opinions seem to be reflecting more every players combat gameplay style, than actual tactics.

PS: Weapons overheat (cooldown) has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits from gameplay perspective. People just try to justify something based lore.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:21 .

[The Spamming Troll]

im just gonna throw an idea out here about the way i feel weapons hould work in ME3.....

first i would remove heavy weapons. possibly only allow heavys for soldiers. i say this because i think ME3s abilites on the non-soldier should be "their" heavy weapons. so the soldier needs something, give them weapons. i would also remove SMGs and give adepts, sentinels, and engineers a choice between the shotty, sniper, and AR as a main weapon, along with a pistol. id also allow vangaurds and infiltreators the choice of two main weapons and the pistol, while the soldier obvisouly gets em all.

secondly i would reintroduce over heating mechanics. just as weapons overheated in ME1, theyd overheat in ME3. the only thing i would change is what heat syncs are used for. id like heat syncs to be used when your weapon overheats, for quicker cooldowns. maybe soldier classes get a few more heat syncs so they can fire more often.basically a "reload" but i would limit the amount of heat syncs you carried. this is something exactly like the way health and medigel are used. in the same way you can eaither sit in cover and wait to heal, or use medigel, you could wait for the weapon to cool or use a heat sync to get back in the action.

as much as id like my adept to have the potential to use any or all of the available biotics, id much much more like ME3 to have overheating weapons. it makes the gunplay just as distinctive as the rest of the game.

honestly anything is better then ME2s so called "new" weapon system.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:29 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Ammo did not make ME2 more tactical. Ammo made ME2 more tedious.

Depense from who you are asking this. In my opinion ME2 ammo limit did make it more tactical, because player will use more different kind of weapons that way. Choosing correct weapon in correct situation is also tactics. How ever, these different opinions seem to be reflecting more every players combat gameplay style, than actual tactics.

PS: Weapons overheat (cooldown) has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits from gameplay perspective. People just try to justify something based lore.

and what do you tell an adept whose choices are the predetor pistol or the shiruken machine pistol?

[Sailears]

Severyx wrote...

Ammo isn't the correct term, and as people have already mentioned, it's not about ammo, it's about heat. Lore-wise the thermal clips make perfect sense. Gameplay-wise, it's not executed correctly.

First, let's discuss lore. The codex states that the thermal clip technology was developed by the geth and for all intents and purposes stolen to be adapted to mainstream weaponry. Remember, the geth do not need air, and are usually in an atmosphereless environment. Weapons cannot cool down without a medium such as air. As such, the thermal clips absorb and hold generated heat and get ejected before damage occurs. Makes sense, right? Right.

Now what about places within an atmosphere where a cooldown medium is present? That's where the ME1-like weapon system starts. Weapons shoot, generate heat, then take time to cool down. Overuse it, and you have to wait for it return to a safe temperature unless you want to damage your gun. I assume the blaring overheat alarm/automatic ceasefire is a built in safeguard. Makes sense, right? Right.

Problem is, soldiers on the battlefield can't wait for a 'cooldown'. They need to keep using their gun. That is the main reason why thermal clips were integrated into weapon designs. The codex mentions that it takes less than a second to swap out a clip compared to the time it takes to cool down an overheated weapon, which is much longer. This is very much the case.

Now we get to ME2 gameplay, where the thermal clip idea had a novel start, but was poorly executed. They put 'intensifying the combat system' over lore, so it doesn't sit well with a lot of people. What should happen is when the gun is not being fired, the 'shots before clip ejection' should slowly increase up until a general cap for simplicity's sake. If you use up all those shots, a clip gets ejected like normal. When you run out of clips? You have to wait for the cooldown ala ME1.

/thread

If there was a "take my hat off to you" emoticon, I would use it here.

[Oblarg]

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Ammo did not make ME2 more tactical. Ammo made ME2 more tedious.

Depense from who you are asking this. In my opinion ME2 ammo limit did make it more tactical, because player will use more different kind of weapons that way. Choosing correct weapon in correct situation is also tactics. How ever, these different opinions seem to be reflecting more every players combat gameplay style, than actual tactics.

PS: Weapons overheat (cooldown) has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits from gameplay perspective. People just try to justify something based lore.

You never really had to be mindful of what gun/ammo you used as long as you spent enough time scrounging around for thermal clips after each fights.

That's not tactics, that's tedium.

My proposed solution?  Bring back the original overheat/cooldown system.  Double or triple the amount of time it takes to cool down your gun if you fully overheat it.  Have thermal clips be somewhat like medi-gel or grenades in the first game - you can carry around five of them, and they're not that easy to find.  If you overheat your weapon and *really* need to put more rounds downrange, you use a thermal clip, however if you're smart and don't fully overheat your gun/mod it such that it doesn't overheat easily (of course, that would require bringing back weapon mods and an inventory) then you won't have to worry about it.  I've been saying this since before ME2 came out.

Modifié par Oblarg, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:13 .

[Epic777]

There are things I fear about reintroducing the overheat mechanic: how would to fit into a faster combat system. me2 was much faster than me1 and at the same time player could fire a weapon continuously until you reload/out of clips.

The limited clips worked better for faster comabat system. Imagine doing me2 style husks rushes with me1 mechanics waiting for a weapon to cool. Also it would need to be extremely well balanced, cool too fast, the player will be able to fire guns continuously and be barley penalized for it. Too slow and the player is waiting for 4 seconds for his weapon too cool while a krogna battlemaster readies to charge

[Oblarg]

Epic777 wrote...

There are things I fear about reintroducing the overheat mechanic: how would to fit into a faster combat system. me2 was much faster than me1 and at the same time player could fire a weapon continuously until you reload/out of clips.
The limited clips worked better for faster comabat system. Imagine doing me2 style husks rushes with me1 mechanics waiting for a weapon to cool. Also it would need to be extremely well balanced, cool too fast, the player will be able to fire guns continuously and be barley penalized for it. Too slow and the player is waiting for 4 seconds for his weapon too cool while a krogna battlemaster readies to charge

This is solved by better encounter design than simply throwing endless waves of husks at you.  For that situation ammo has to be effectively infinite even with the clip system or you end up dead.

Besides, the best way to deal with husks in ME2 was just to spam pull field.  Over and over again.

[Epic777]

Oblarg wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

There are things I fear about reintroducing the overheat mechanic: how would to fit into a faster combat system. me2 was much faster than me1 and at the same time player could fire a weapon continuously until you reload/out of clips.
The limited clips worked better for faster comabat system. Imagine doing me2 style husks rushes with me1 mechanics waiting for a weapon to cool. Also it would need to be extremely well balanced, cool too fast, the player will be able to fire guns continuously and be barley penalized for it. Too slow and the player is waiting for 4 seconds for his weapon too cool while a krogna battlemaster readies to charge

This is solved by better encounter design than simply throwing endless waves of husks at you.  For that situation ammo has to be effectively infinite even with the clip system or you end up dead.

Besides, the best way to deal with husks in ME2 was just to spam pull field.  Over and over again.

Why was husk rushes a bad idea? You need tactics too avoid being swamped
Field pull only if the player is playing on veteran or less. On hardcore and above
Soldier/Vanguard = inferno ammo + squad cryo ammo
Adept/Sentinel = warp +throw/reave + throw
Sentinel = reave +cryo blast
Adept = singularity +warp

Modifié par Epic777, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:08 .

[sinosleep]

Epic777 wrote...

me1 vs me2 round X

LOL, so true.

[Oblarg]

Epic777 wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

There are things I fear about reintroducing the overheat mechanic: how would to fit into a faster combat system. me2 was much faster than me1 and at the same time player could fire a weapon continuously until you reload/out of clips.
The limited clips worked better for faster comabat system. Imagine doing me2 style husks rushes with me1 mechanics waiting for a weapon to cool. Also it would need to be extremely well balanced, cool too fast, the player will be able to fire guns continuously and be barley penalized for it. Too slow and the player is waiting for 4 seconds for his weapon too cool while a krogna battlemaster readies to charge

This is solved by better encounter design than simply throwing endless waves of husks at you.  For that situation ammo has to be effectively infinite even with the clip system or you end up dead.

Besides, the best way to deal with husks in ME2 was just to spam pull field.  Over and over again.

Why was husk rushes a bad idea? You need tactics too avoid being swamped
Field pull only if the player is playing on veteran or less. On hardcore and above
Soldier/Vanguard = inferno ammo + squad cryo ammo
Adept/Sentinel = warp +throw/reave + throw
Sentinel = reave +cryo blast
Adept = singularity +warp

That has nothing to do with a limited ammo system, to be honest.  On higher difficulties there was still enough ammo that you could hold the trigger down during husk rushes and still never worry about running out of ammo.  All the ammo system added to the game was the tedium of scrounging around for thermal clips after fights.

Husk swarms are not bad design by themselves, but they are when you use them to the point where it's the only thing you encounter in a level (derelict reaper, anyone?).

Personally, I don't think more time holding the trigger directly results in more fun, which is exactly what the husk swarms were - lots of time holding down the trigger.  A well-placed swarm of enemies that stresses the player is good deisgn, and in fact a cooldown system such as the ones in the first game allow this to be done more effectively.  Gameplay that revolves solely around gunning down swarms of enemies quickly becomes motonous.

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

and what do you tell an adept whose choices are the predetor pistol or the shiruken machine pistol?

If you play bionic character, you main gameplay is not weapons, weapons are just supporting you bionics.

[Oblarg]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

and what do you tell an adept whose choices are the predetor pistol or the shiruken machine pistol?

If you play bionic character, you main gameplay is not weapons, weapons are just supporting you bionics.

Too bad biotics are worth absolutely ****ing nothing in ME2, eh?

[Lumikki]

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Ammo did not make ME2 more tactical. Ammo made ME2 more tedious.

Depense from who you are asking this. In my opinion ME2 ammo limit did make it more tactical, because player will use more different kind of weapons that way. Choosing correct weapon in correct situation is also tactics. How ever, these different opinions seem to be reflecting more every players combat gameplay style, than actual tactics.

PS: Weapons overheat (cooldown) has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits from gameplay perspective. People just try to justify something based lore.

You never really had to be mindful of what gun/ammo you used as long as you spent enough time scrounging around for thermal clips after each fights.

That's not tactics, that's tedium.

Like I allready sayed, this depense who you are asking. I disagree with you 100%.

My proposed solution?  Bring back the original overheat/cooldown system.  Double or triple the amount of time it takes to cool down your gun if you fully overheat it.  Have thermal clips be somewhat like medi-gel or grenades in the first game - you can carry around five of them, and they're not that easy to find.  If you overheat your weapon and *really* need to put more rounds downrange, you use a thermal clip, however if you're smart and don't fully overheat your gun/mod it such that it doesn't overheat easily (of course, that would require bringing back weapon mods and an inventory) then you won't have to worry about it.  I've been saying this since before ME2 came out.

Overheat has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits in gameplay system.  I'm not interested anything cooling, overhead or even change of clips. They have ZERO meaning.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Lumikki]

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

and what do you tell an adept whose choices are the predetor pistol or the shiruken machine pistol?

If you play bionic character, you main gameplay is not weapons, weapons are just supporting you bionics.

Too bad biotics are worth absolutely ****ing nothing in ME2, eh?

I agree, but that's not reason to **** up ME2 weapon system.

[Oblarg]

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

and what do you tell an adept whose choices are the predetor pistol or the shiruken machine pistol?

If you play bionic character, you main gameplay is not weapons, weapons are just supporting you bionics.

Too bad biotics are worth absolutely ****ing nothing in ME2, eh?

I agree, but that's not reason to **** up ME2 weapon system.

There was no reason to **** up the ME1 weapon system in the first place.  The new ammo system added nothing of value to the game.

[Lumikki]

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I agree, but that's not reason to **** up ME2 weapon system.

There was no reason to **** up the ME1 weapon system in the first place.  The new ammo system added nothing of value to the game.

ME1 weapon system was total **** up, it was pure joke. ME2 system improved the weapon side combat system alot better, only customation needs still improving. Point is that only good thing in ME1 weapon system was it's customation, other ways it was joke.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Epic777]

Please... both of you be civil

[Getorex]

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Ammo did not make ME2 more tactical. Ammo made ME2 more tedious.

Depense from who you are asking this. In my opinion ME2 ammo limit did make it more tactical, because player will use more different kind of weapons that way. Choosing correct weapon in correct situation is also tactics. How ever, these different opinions seem to be reflecting more every players combat gameplay style, than actual tactics.

PS: Weapons overheat (cooldown) has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits from gameplay perspective. People just try to justify something based lore.

You never really had to be mindful of what gun/ammo you used as long as you spent enough time scrounging around for thermal clips after each fights.

That's not tactics, that's tedium.

Like I allready sayed, this depense who you are asking. I disagree with you 100%.

My proposed solution?  Bring back the original overheat/cooldown system.  Double or triple the amount of time it takes to cool down your gun if you fully overheat it.  Have thermal clips be somewhat like medi-gel or grenades in the first game - you can carry around five of them, and they're not that easy to find.  If you overheat your weapon and *really* need to put more rounds downrange, you use a thermal clip, however if you're smart and don't fully overheat your gun/mod it such that it doesn't overheat easily (of course, that would require bringing back weapon mods and an inventory) then you won't have to worry about it.  I've been saying this since before ME2 came out.

Overheat has ZERO thing to do with ammo limits in gameplay system.  I'm not interested anything cooling, overhead or even chane of clips. They have ZERO meaning.

It's not THAT difficult to understand this thing. From ME1, the weapons used solid blocks of metal as a source of ammo. They shaved off small amounts and converted into plasma and fired. It is virtually the same thing as unlimited ammo because it would take a LONG time to use up even a common, small, contemporary 10-round magazine-sized block of metal. To make it less of a cheat (unlimited ammo is cheating) they made the weapons subject to overheating. Not unreasonable actually since you are firing plasma balls (plasmas are ultra-hot, they are surface of the sun hot, even corona of the sun hot which is an order of magnitude hotter than the surface).

It was actually a clever design idea. Not unreasonable at all. Now, with thermal clips, there's actually no reason to call them "thermal clips" except as part of legacy. They might as well be magazines of bullets laying around - a pain-in-the-ass-silly conceit overused in ALL shooter games. There is NEVER a bunch of full magazines for whatever weapons you are carrying laying around all over the place. You have ONLY what you carry, about 300 rds. The only REAL hope you have in real circumstances after you use up your ammo is to 1) acquire extra from comrades, or 2) take from fallen comrades, or 3) pick up a weapon from a fallen badguy and use whatever of THEIR ammo you can find.

I prefer the original. Block of metal, virtually unlimited supply (for all practical combat purposes) of rounds, but balanced with the fact that your weapon can overheat from overuse rather quickly. But then, REAL weapons also overheat if overused - you can get cookoff of rounds as a result. For high rate of fire weapons, you can also get a nice, solid, essentially permanent jam.

Pick your poison: 300 rds or so - and that is for your AR...you get less for your shotgun. Handgun rounds have to be juggled and balanced AGAINST your AR rounds. And then your sniper rifle rounds are even more limited. Or...block of metal in each weapon providing near unlimited ammo but with an overheat issue because of super hot plasma.

Magic weapons not allowed (those with unlimited ammo and no other issues like overheating).
Anything LIKE a magic weapon is cheating and ruins the game, so why play it? Might as well demand God Mode and No Clipping so there's no challenge at all.

Modifié par Getorex, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Lumikki]

Getorex wrote...

It's not THAT difficult to understand this thing.

I'm NOT interested LORE based explanation how something works, it has ZERO meaning. Only real meaning is how weapons feels and works in gameplay perspective.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

ME1 weapon system was total **** up, it was pure joke. ME2 system improved the weapon side combat system alot better, only customation needs still improving. Point is that only thing good thing in ME1 weapon system was it's customation, other ways it was joke.

the improvement you see has absolutely nothing to do with the number of times you can fire a weapon.

[Getorex]

Lumikki wrote...

Getorex wrote...

It's not THAT difficult to understand this thing.

I'm NOT interested LORE based explanation how something works, it has ZERO meaning. Only real meaning is how weapons feels and works in gameplay perspective.

It does matter. Otherwise why don't they just hand us magic swords that both fire bullets and act as swords? Why have a bunch of weapons at all? Just have one MAGIC weapon that can be anything and everything? And why have thermal clips or anything else. Just give them unlimited firing capability and have done with it?

The game is seeking SOME level of self consistency and logic, the universe of the game matters. This isn't just some lame free-for-all online game where it doesn't matter at all about ANYTHING in the game at all. The weapons should be logically consistent with the game, they should be self-consistent, and they should NOT be magic.

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

ME1 weapon system was total **** up, it was pure joke. ME2 system improved the weapon side combat system alot better, only customation needs still improving. Point is that only thing good thing in ME1 weapon system was it's customation, other ways it was joke.

the improvement you see has absolutely nothing to do with the number of times you can fire a weapon.

Try to use only sniper riffle in ME2 and them come to say it has not meaning.