150 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Getorex wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Getorex wrote...

It's not THAT difficult to understand this thing.

I'm NOT interested LORE based explanation how something works, it has ZERO meaning. Only real meaning is how weapons feels and works in gameplay perspective.

It does matter. Otherwise why don't they just hand us magic swords that both fire bullets and act as swords? Why have a bunch of weapons at all? Just have one MAGIC weapon that can be anything and everything? And why have thermal clips or anything else. Just give them unlimited firing capability and have done with it?

The game is seeking SOME level of self consistency and logic, the universe of the game matters. This isn't just some lame free-for-all online game where it doesn't matter at all about ANYTHING in the game at all. The weapons should be logically consistent with the game, they should be self-consistent, and they should NOT be magic.

There is no reason to create weapon combat gameplay what SUCKS, just because some bad LORE. First thing in game is that gameplay has to work well, then you create lore what supports it. What you people try to do is use BAD LORE to create bad weapon combat gameplay.

[Epic777]

I will mention a few things, one thermal clips are a game-play element, probably is not as lore strict as overheating but then push comes to shove game-play > lore/real-life etc. Thermal clips are like the inventory from me1;how does Shepard carry 150 items, or my favorite the geth armory license

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.



Last point, be CIVIL

[Getorex]

Lumikki, have you ever handled REAL weapons? Real ARs? They have REAL strengths and REAL limitations. They do not give a flying f*ck about YOUR personal desire for feel and handling. They don't have unlimited firing capability, YOU don't have unlimited ammo carry capability, etc. That reality. The game is seeking at least SOME self-consistent type of reality. The weapons should have a basic design based on whatever the writers decide, so long as it is logical, and then have to be limited within the parameters of that design.



Firing plasma balls IMPLIES other issues. Those issues are energy, heat, and amount of source material. Sure, the writers could get lazy and just say, "here's your magic guns. They just work and they never run out of ammo and they never overheat or jam and they are always boresighted perfectly so all bullets go precisely where your crosshair sits."



They could do that and it would be CRAP. If they were using real weapons as models then I would expect those weapons to behave as much as possible like the real deal. Noise, rate or fire, jamming, overheat. I would expect ammo to be an issue that needed to be considered and tracked as you fight. Anything else is bollocks and lazy design and lazy play.

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

ME1 weapon system was total **** up, it was pure joke. ME2 system improved the weapon side combat system alot better, only customation needs still improving. Point is that only thing good thing in ME1 weapon system was it's customation, other ways it was joke.

the improvement you see has absolutely nothing to do with the number of times you can fire a weapon.

Try to use only sniper riffle in ME2 and them come to say it has not meaning.

your sentances give me headaches.

if i ONLY used one weapon, then yes, id expect it to run out of ammo. but you bring up another reason why ME2 weapon are rediculousely thought up. if im an infiltrator and my sole purpose is to snipe, why the hell do i limit myself to only have 10 sniper bullets?

i really dont get the analogy about using a sniper in ME2, or compareing it to ME1. they both do exactly the same thing. your simply stuck onthe fact that youd rather see a ammo-number instead of the overheat-bar.

[The Spamming Troll]

Epic777 wrote...

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.

becasue they dont work on protected enemies. its not just biotics. practically every ability suffers the same fate on insanity. debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

insanity turns ME2 into gears of space, which isnt bad becasue gears is sweet, i just didnt by ME2 to play gears of space is all. theres much better options to challenge me then taking away the very reason why im playing the game in the first place.

[Oblarg]

Lumikki wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I agree, but that's not reason to **** up ME2 weapon system.

There was no reason to **** up the ME1 weapon system in the first place.  The new ammo system added nothing of value to the game.

ME1 weapon system was total **** up, it was pure joke. ME2 system improved the weapon side combat system alot better, only customation needs still improving. Point is that only good thing in ME1 weapon system was it's customation, other ways it was joke.

Nice opinion you have there.  Unfortunately, I don't share it.

I would, however, love to know what satisfaction you get out of scrounging around after fights for thermal clips.

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

if i ONLY used one weapon, then yes, id expect it to run out of ammo. but you bring up another reason why ME2 weapon are rediculousely thought up. if im an infiltrator and my sole purpose is to snipe, why the hell do i limit myself to only have 10 sniper bullets?

Because that 10 bullet limits player ability use sniper riffle to everyting and create situation where weapon balance done with higher difference in weapons. Also like you sayed, it cause players use other weapons too. Meaning weapons are used more situation based, because ammos. 

i really dont get the analogy about using a sniper in ME2, or compareing it to ME1. they both do exactly the same thing. your simply stuck onthe fact that youd rather see a ammo-number instead of the overheat-bar.

ME1 and ME2 sniper rifles are different like night and day. It's not about been stuck, it's about how the weapons feel in gamelay combat.

[Oblarg]

Bah, ****ty forum made me doublepost.

Modifié par Oblarg, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Getorex]

Lumikki wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Getorex wrote...

It's not THAT difficult to understand this thing.

I'm NOT interested LORE based explanation how something works, it has ZERO meaning. Only real meaning is how weapons feels and works in gameplay perspective.

It does matter. Otherwise why don't they just hand us magic swords that both fire bullets and act as swords? Why have a bunch of weapons at all? Just have one MAGIC weapon that can be anything and everything? And why have thermal clips or anything else. Just give them unlimited firing capability and have done with it?

The game is seeking SOME level of self consistency and logic, the universe of the game matters. This isn't just some lame free-for-all online game where it doesn't matter at all about ANYTHING in the game at all. The weapons should be logically consistent with the game, they should be self-consistent, and they should NOT be magic.

There is no reason to create weapon combat gameplay what SUCKS, just because some bad LORE. First thing in game is that gameplay has to work well, then you create lore what supports it. What you people try to do is use BAD LORE to create bad weapon combat gameplay.

You will have to explain why it is "bad lore" and base it more on "it just is" or "because I don't like it".

IF you have a weapon that fires plasma, then that implies certain things. You shouldn't just wave those things away and use magic. IF you have a weapon that uses metal shavings as a source material for the plasma, that IMPLIES certain things. If this, then that. Simple. Consistent.

The actual design idea is NOT 'bad". It is clever and not unreasonable. You COULD, in theory, make a weapon much like those seen in ME1. Plasma rifles. No cartridges, no magazines (normal mags at least, just a processed block of metal). There are follow-ons too. IF firing plasma, THEN you can deflect those plasmas with magnetic fields (this is actually a plasma rifle's weakness). Wow, that's kinda like a "shield".

OR, you fire bullets with mass. IF bullet, THEN no shielding will work (only armor). IF bullet has cartridges, THEN they weigh more and are bulkier - you can't carry many (about 300). IF bullet is just steel or iron-based slug, then you can have gauss rifles/rail guns firing hyper-velocity bullets. Bullets can be smaller yet carry more energy. You can carry much more of these. Your weapon now has energy issues (battery life).

Those are probably all "bad lore" to you but, in fact, they are reality. I like it when they bring as much of that into the game as they can because anything else is voodoo magic. A cheat.

[Oblarg]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

if i ONLY used one weapon, then yes, id expect it to run out of ammo. but you bring up another reason why ME2 weapon are rediculousely thought up. if im an infiltrator and my sole purpose is to snipe, why the hell do i limit myself to only have 10 sniper bullets?

Because that 10 bullet limits player ability use sniper riffle to everyting and create situation where weapon balance done with higher difference in weapons. Also like you sayed, it cause players use other weapons too. Meaning weapons are used more situation based, because ammos. 

i really dont get the analogy about using a sniper in ME2, or compareing it to ME1. they both do exactly the same thing. your simply stuck onthe fact that youd rather see a ammo-number instead of the overheat-bar.

ME1 and ME2 sniper rifles are different like night and day. It's not about been stuck, it's about how the weapons feel in gamelay combat.

What the hell do sniper rifles have to do with the ammo system?

Really, other than the rapid-fire sniper that no one with any sense used, the only thing that changed with the sniper is that you no longer needed to skill up to have the reticle be stationary (which I don't particularly like, tbh).

[Epic777]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.

becasue they dont work on protected enemies. its not just biotics. practically every ability suffers the same fate on insanity. debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

insanity turns ME2 into gears of space, which isnt bad becasue gears is sweet, i just didnt by ME2 to play gears of space is all. theres much better options to challenge me then taking away the very reason why im playing the game in the first place.

Disagree big time biotics are the only few things besides heavy weapons that can actually damage groups of enemies. Hell take samara with area reave and your biotics class with area reave most organics will be dead. The more biotics the better more warp bombs.

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

if i ONLY used one weapon, then yes, id expect it to run out of ammo. but you bring up another reason why ME2 weapon are rediculousely thought up. if im an infiltrator and my sole purpose is to snipe, why the hell do i limit myself to only have 10 sniper bullets?

Because that 10 bullet limits player ability use sniper riffle to everyting and create situation where weapon balance done with higher difference in weapons. Also like you sayed, it cause players use other weapons too. Meaning weapons are used more situation based, because ammos. 

i really dont get the analogy about using a sniper in ME2, or compareing it to ME1. they both do exactly the same thing. your simply stuck onthe fact that youd rather see a ammo-number instead of the overheat-bar.

ME1 and ME2 sniper rifles are different like night and day. It's not about been stuck, it's about how the weapons feel in gamelay combat.

i woulda guessed the excuse youd come up with would revolve around the word "balance."

i really dont even know what your trying to say with those words you threw together there.

[Lumikki]

Getorex wrote...

Lumikki, have you ever handled REAL weapons?

Yes, I have been shooting with real life weapons.

That reality. The game is seeking at least SOME self-consistent type of reality. The weapons should have a basic design based on whatever the writers decide, so long as it is logical, and then have to be limited within the parameters of that design.

Sure, I agree that weapons should be based somekind of logical reality even in science fiction weapons.

So, answer this, where is the "bullet" material comming in unlimited ammo weapons in ME?

[The Spamming Troll]

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.

becasue they dont work on protected enemies. its not just biotics. practically every ability suffers the same fate on insanity. debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

insanity turns ME2 into gears of space, which isnt bad becasue gears is sweet, i just didnt by ME2 to play gears of space is all. theres much better options to challenge me then taking away the very reason why im playing the game in the first place.

Disagree big time biotics are the only few things besides heavy weapons that can actually damage groups of enemies. Hell take samara with area reave and your biotics class with area reave most organics will be dead. The more biotics the better more warp bombs.

by biotics, you mean specifically singularity, right? i will agree that singularity can CC enemies, but biotics or any other ability is useless on protected enemies. but reave is a debuff and i said debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

if youve got vids of your sentinel or vangaurd using biotics effectively on insanity that are more effective then a .5 second stun, then id love to see them.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Oblarg]

Lumikki wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Lumikki, have you ever handled REAL weapons?

Yes, I have been shooting with real life weapons.

That reality. The game is seeking at least SOME self-consistent type of reality. The weapons should have a basic design based on whatever the writers decide, so long as it is logical, and then have to be limited within the parameters of that design.

Sure, I agree that weapons should be based somekind of logical reality even in science fiction weapons.

So, answer this, where is the "bullet" material comming in unlimited ammo weapons in ME?

I don't know about you, but I never felt that I was restricted with the sniper rifle due to ammo.  It did, however, annoy me that I would have been if I hadn't compulsively looked around for thermal clips after every fight.

As for the bullet material, that's explained in the codex - every gun has a solid block of metal, and each "bullet" is about the size of a grain of sand.  The gun shears off a tiny speck of metal every time you pull the trigger.

Perhaps before trying to get into a lore argument you should, I dunno, read the goddamn lore?

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

So, answer this, where is the "bullet" material comming in unlimited ammo weapons in ME?

this is your problem. you have no idea how ME weapons work. you only know how CoD weapons work.

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i woulda guessed the excuse youd come up with would revolve around the word "balance."

i really dont even know what your trying to say with those words you threw together there.

I ques I have to explain this then better.

Every weapon in game should have about same damager per second (DPS). How ever, weapons can be different. Weapons have different attribute, rate of fire, damage, reaload or cooling time and ammo limits.

Now lets look sniper riffle. Slow rate of fire, but high damage.

In ulimited ammo situation it's all about rate of fire, damage and cooling time. This create slow weapon with high damage in snipper riffle case.

In limited ammo situation, it has one more attribute, limited ammo capacity. That can affect the sniper riffle. Example You could increase rate of fire alot faster than unlimited case, because that would just allow fire the 10 bullets then it's done. So, limited ammo cause can have higher burst damage, while still keep the DPS balanced when compared to other weapon types. Point is, it allow higher differences what can affect how the weapon feels in gameplay.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:18 .

[Getorex]

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

if i ONLY used one weapon, then yes, id expect it to run out of ammo. but you bring up another reason why ME2 weapon are rediculousely thought up. if im an infiltrator and my sole purpose is to snipe, why the hell do i limit myself to only have 10 sniper bullets?

Because that 10 bullet limits player ability use sniper riffle to everyting and create situation where weapon balance done with higher difference in weapons. Also like you sayed, it cause players use other weapons too. Meaning weapons are used more situation based, because ammos. 

i really dont get the analogy about using a sniper in ME2, or compareing it to ME1. they both do exactly the same thing. your simply stuck onthe fact that youd rather see a ammo-number instead of the overheat-bar.

ME1 and ME2 sniper rifles are different like night and day. It's not about been stuck, it's about how the weapons feel in gamelay combat.

What the hell do sniper rifles have to do with the ammo system?

Really, other than the rapid-fire sniper that no one with any sense used, the only thing that changed with the sniper is that you no longer needed to skill up to have the reticle be stationary (which I don't particularly like, tbh).

I'm with you on that last thing. I liked the waving sight picture you got in ME1...like a real sniper rifle. In ME2 its as if the rifle is firmly mounted on a bench in a shooting rest. Rock steady. Unreal. Too easy. The sniper rifles in ME1 were woefully underpowered while ME2 has them about right (the Widow is great - like a .50 cal Barrett).

[Epic777]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.

becasue they dont work on protected enemies. its not just biotics. practically every ability suffers the same fate on insanity. debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

insanity turns ME2 into gears of space, which isnt bad becasue gears is sweet, i just didnt by ME2 to play gears of space is all. theres much better options to challenge me then taking away the very reason why im playing the game in the first place.

Disagree big time biotics are the only few things besides heavy weapons that can actually damage groups of enemies. Hell take samara with area reave and your biotics class with area reave most organics will be dead. The more biotics the better more warp bombs.

by biotics, you mean specifically singularity, right? i will agree that singularity can CC enemies, but biotics any other ability is useless on protected enemies. but reave is a debuff and i said debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

if youve got vids of your sentinel or vangaurd using biotics effectively on insanity that are more effective then a .5 second stun, then id love to see them.

warp will destroy armor and barriers and allows for warp bombs, reave does the same and deals lots of damage to biotics  Protection in me2 comes in three flavors barriers, armor and shields, biotics are good at combating two those.

On a side note .5 second stun?

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

So, answer this, where is the "bullet" material comming in unlimited ammo weapons in ME?

this is your problem. you have no idea how ME weapons work. you only know how CoD weapons work.

I know how the ME weapons works, defined by lore. This isn't first time this has been discussed.

ANSWER the question.

[The Spamming Troll]

lumiki, what the **** are you talking about?

im lossing brain cells here.......

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Oblarg]

Getorex wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

if i ONLY used one weapon, then yes, id expect it to run out of ammo. but you bring up another reason why ME2 weapon are rediculousely thought up. if im an infiltrator and my sole purpose is to snipe, why the hell do i limit myself to only have 10 sniper bullets?

Because that 10 bullet limits player ability use sniper riffle to everyting and create situation where weapon balance done with higher difference in weapons. Also like you sayed, it cause players use other weapons too. Meaning weapons are used more situation based, because ammos. 

i really dont get the analogy about using a sniper in ME2, or compareing it to ME1. they both do exactly the same thing. your simply stuck onthe fact that youd rather see a ammo-number instead of the overheat-bar.

ME1 and ME2 sniper rifles are different like night and day. It's not about been stuck, it's about how the weapons feel in gamelay combat.

What the hell do sniper rifles have to do with the ammo system?

Really, other than the rapid-fire sniper that no one with any sense used, the only thing that changed with the sniper is that you no longer needed to skill up to have the reticle be stationary (which I don't particularly like, tbh).

I'm with you on that last thing. I liked the waving sight picture you got in ME1...like a real sniper rifle. In ME2 its as if the rifle is firmly mounted on a bench in a shooting rest. Rock steady. Unreal. Too easy. The sniper rifles in ME1 were woefully underpowered while ME2 has them about right (the Widow is great - like a .50 cal Barrett).

I was able to one-shot pretty much anything with a properly modded sniper rifle in ME1, not sure what you're talking about.

It was even better if you ignored heat sink mods and simply stuck high-explosive rounds in your sniper.

[Oblarg]

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.

becasue they dont work on protected enemies. its not just biotics. practically every ability suffers the same fate on insanity. debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

insanity turns ME2 into gears of space, which isnt bad becasue gears is sweet, i just didnt by ME2 to play gears of space is all. theres much better options to challenge me then taking away the very reason why im playing the game in the first place.

Disagree big time biotics are the only few things besides heavy weapons that can actually damage groups of enemies. Hell take samara with area reave and your biotics class with area reave most organics will be dead. The more biotics the better more warp bombs.

by biotics, you mean specifically singularity, right? i will agree that singularity can CC enemies, but biotics any other ability is useless on protected enemies. but reave is a debuff and i said debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

if youve got vids of your sentinel or vangaurd using biotics effectively on insanity that are more effective then a .5 second stun, then id love to see them.

warp will destroy armor and barriers and allows for warp bombs, reave does the same and deals lots of damage to biotics  Protection in me2 comes in three flavors barriers, armor and shields, biotics are good at combating two those.

On a side note .5 second stun?

The only biotics that were particularly useful in ME2 were those that did damage (warp, reave).  The real visceral powers, like throw and lift, were either removed or neutered.  It's a real pity.

[The Spamming Troll]

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Why do people believe biotics are underpowered? I could post videos proving otherwise.

becasue they dont work on protected enemies. its not just biotics. practically every ability suffers the same fate on insanity. debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

insanity turns ME2 into gears of space, which isnt bad becasue gears is sweet, i just didnt by ME2 to play gears of space is all. theres much better options to challenge me then taking away the very reason why im playing the game in the first place.

Disagree big time biotics are the only few things besides heavy weapons that can actually damage groups of enemies. Hell take samara with area reave and your biotics class with area reave most organics will be dead. The more biotics the better more warp bombs.

by biotics, you mean specifically singularity, right? i will agree that singularity can CC enemies, but biotics any other ability is useless on protected enemies. but reave is a debuff and i said debuffs and guns are an insanity players best friend.

if youve got vids of your sentinel or vangaurd using biotics effectively on insanity that are more effective then a .5 second stun, then id love to see them.

warp will destroy armor and barriers and allows for warp bombs, reave does the same and deals lots of damage to biotics  Protection in me2 comes in three flavors barriers, armor and shields, biotics are good at combating two those.

On a side note .5 second stun?

i dont know what your getting at. yes, debuffs are great for defense. ofcorse. how do you warp bomb a group of protected enemies?

actually let me rephrase my previouse statement. guns and debuffs arent an insanity players best friend, they are an adepts best friend. not exactly so, but thats the way it seems to me.

[Getorex]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i woulda guessed the excuse youd come up with would revolve around the word "balance."

i really dont even know what your trying to say with those words you threw together there.

I ques I have to explain this then better.

Every weapon in game should have about same damager per second (DPS). How ever, weapons can be different. Weapons have different attribute, rate of fire, damage, reaload or cooling time and ammo limits.

Now lets look sniper riffle. Slow rate of fire, but high damage.

In ulimited ammo situation it's all about rate of fire, damage and cooling time. This create slow weapon with high damage in snipper riffle case.

In limited ammo situation, it has one more attribute limited ammo capacity. That can affect the sniper riffle. Example You could increase rate of fire alot faster than unlimited case, because that would just allow fire the 10 bullets then it's done. So, limited ammo cause can have higher burst damage, while still keep the DPS balanced when compared to other weapon types. Point is it allow higher differences what can affect how the weapon feels in gameplay.

I see somewhat what you are saying. But. I'd prefer the weapons match up more with reality. A handgun is practically useless in combat. You ONLY use one at close range and/or in desperate straights. AR is the main deal. Good range, high powered, high rate of fire possible. Shotgun. Useless at medium to long range, great at close range, doesn't need to be as accurately and carefully aimed. Has power to knock enemy on ass at close to medium range as well as blow big hole. Sniper rifle, slow rate of fire, VERY high damage. Not of much value at close range. No balance between the weapons, they just do what they do and you die if you try to use the wrong one in the wrong situation.

SMGs. Low power, high rate of fire, light weight so easy to carry and use especially in close quarters. USELESS against longer range targets, useless against armor.

Weapons should have costs and benefits and NOT be equally balanced just for the sake of balance.