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Did the Council abandon and wrong the Quarian Race?


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#1
Major Truth

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I've always found the actions and attitude of the Citadel council towards the Quarians somewhat surprising or for want of another term downright harsh. In 26 years Humanity went from the first contact war to becoming a council race yet in over 3 centuries the Quarians have been left to wander space planetless.

So does the punishment fit the crime. Ok so lets look at a summary of what happened:

The Crime
- The Quarians invent Geth 1900 CE to be used as labourers and tools of war. The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI.nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Councils laws against artificial intelligence. But as the quarians gradually modified the geth to do more complex tasks, developing a sophisticated neural network, these changes altered the geth to such an extent that they became sentient. The geth were designed as VI's as advanced as possible while remaining on-sentient.The Geth becoming sentient was neither planned nor intentional.

- One day, a geth unit began asking its overseer questions about the nature of its existence. According to Legion while this was not the first time a geth unit had asked if it had a soul, it was the first time doing so had caused fear. Regardless, the quarians felt as though they had made a terrible mistake.

- Panicked, the quarian government ordered an immediate shutdown of all geth, hoping to strike the first blow, but they had underestimated the power of the neural network and how intelligent the geth had become.Their servants defended themselves, resulting in a war that cost billions of quarian lives and drove them from their homeworld.

The Punishment 
- The Citadel Council refused aid to the Quarians during the Morning War. This resulted in the Quarians fleeing their homeworld

- Soon after, the Council stripped the quarians of their embassy, effectively cutting the quarians out of Citadel politics as a punishment for their actions.

The Consequences
- The Quarians do not have a planet to call their own, and as a result are forced to wander the galaxy in the migrant feet

- Quarian population now stands at approx 17 million people with restrictions place on birth rates to preserve
resources

- As a consequence of living aboard the flotilla the Quarian immune system has been shot to pieces. They are permanently sentanced to living within their enviro suits

- Quarians are treated like second class citizens by the rest of the galaxy, viewed as vagrants and scavangers

- The Geth did not repopulate the now barren Quarian worlds, instead choosing to exist in the computer hubs
aboard massive space stations and extract needed resources from asteroids.

The Verdict (in my own opinion)

Personally I think the Councils actions have been unbelievably harsh. Yes the Quarians made an error of judgement as a people, but they paid dearly for it with millions of Quarians losing their lives. The Quarian race has been reduced to a mere 17 million peoplem, to put that in context that is less then 1/3 the population of the United Kingdom or less then half the population of California
By refusing the Quarians aid, billions were killed. The Quarians were forced to flee a planet that the Geth do not even use. Council intervention could have resulted in the Geth being moved to Space stations elsewhere in the Galaxy and the Quarians keeping their planet. Their refusal resulted in a bloody war, the near genecide of a race, and the Quarian people sentanced to wander the stars in space suits. What a miserable existence to impose on people.
Now many will argue that the Quarians brought all this on themselves by creating the Geth and then subsequently attacking them. I think thats harsh. Believing that the majority of the Geth were not sentient they
attempted to shut down the machines to correct their mistake. They failed.
Regardless of the merit or lack of there of of their decision, the current day Quarian race should not be held accountable for it. You cannot condemn a race for a single mistake surely? 

It would appear the council are intent on doing so

Poll
social.bioware.com/1639775/polls/12139/

Modifié par Major Truth, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:12 .


#2
Dean_the_Young

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Yes.



The Council's actions were an abandonment of an ally and associating struggling to implement their own laws at best, and a monstrous genocide-by-default removal of a potential political rival to the established Council races at worst.

#3
Sylvanas

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The quarians brought it upon themselves.

#4
Killjoy Cutter

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Schutzstaffel wrote...

The quarians brought it upon themselves.


Ah, yes, collective guilt rears its ugly head...

#5
Teknor

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The Council is not a charity. Everybody carries their own weight there. Since quarians can't, so be it.

#6
Major Truth

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Teknor wrote...

The Council is not a charity. Everybody carries their own weight there. Since quarians can't, so be it.


Not sure what you mean by everyone carries their own weight

#7
vehzeel

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The quarians got punished as a collective = Not cool. The council back then were obviously idiots. but it seems to be a fine tradition, alive and kicking today as well :)
The quarians greatly wronged the geth race, on the other hand. I don't agree that the entire should be doomed to wander the galaxy and be considered thieves, scavengers and second class citizens, though.
We can congrat the council for making an entire race underclass in one fell swoop. Yay.

Modifié par vehzeel, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:59 .


#8
Teknor

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It means they are not screwed if somehow Council decided to dump them like they did to Quarians.

#9
Major Truth

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Teknor wrote...

It means they are not screwed if somehow Council decided to dump them like they did to Quarians.


If they are at war they could well be. Remember the Quarians went to war only once the realised the Geth were becoming Sapient.

To me I find it very harsh that the council would welcome humanity onto the actual council 26 years after going to war with the Turians yet continue to politically ignore the Quarians

#10
Teknor

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There is also the matter that Council was scared of Geth since their motives were not clear enough and avoided incuring their wrath by helping quarians. 

#11
Major Truth

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Schutzstaffel wrote...

The quarians brought it upon themselves.


Brought what on themselves, the war?, thats a whole other matter, this post is about the councils actions. And what have the Geth done to affect Citadel space over the last 300 years? The actions of the Quarians have not effected the council, only the Quarians themselves. The war had no effect on the council as they refused to become involved

vehzeel wrote...

The quarians got punished as a
collective = Not cool. The council back then were obviously idiots. but
it seems to be a fine tradition, alive and kicking today as well :)
The
quarians greatly wronged the geth race, on the other hand. I don't
agree that the entire should be doomed to wander the galaxy and be
considered thieves, scavengers and second class citizens, though.
We can congrat the council for making an entire race underclass in one fell swoop. Yay.


So is it not the responsibiliy of the current council to correct the mistakes of previous councils

#12
Sylvanas

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Major Truth wrote...

Teknor wrote...

It means they are not screwed if somehow Council decided to dump them like they did to Quarians.


If they are at war they could well be. Remember the Quarians went to war only once the realised the Geth were becoming Sapient.

To me I find it very harsh that the council would welcome humanity onto the actual council 26 years after going to war with the Turians yet continue to politically ignore the Quarians

The quarians attempted genocide of a sentient race.

#13
Major Truth

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Teknor wrote...

There is also the matter that Council was scared of Geth since their motives were not clear enough and avoided incuring their wrath by helping quarians. 


Why would the council be scared of the Geth? They had just become Sapient. A council joint forces fleet would have wiped them out quickly and easily.

At the time of the Morning Wars Rannoch (Quarian Homeworld) was part of council space, so they would have been perfectly within their rights sending their fleet to assist

Modifié par Major Truth, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:13 .


#14
Killjoy Cutter

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Schutzstaffel wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

Teknor wrote...

It means they are not screwed if somehow Council decided to dump them like they did to Quarians.


If they are at war they could well be. Remember the Quarians went to war only once the realised the Geth were becoming Sapient.

To me I find it very harsh that the council would welcome humanity onto the actual council 26 years after going to war with the Turians yet continue to politically ignore the Quarians

The quarians attempted genocide of a sentient race.


Check your timeline.  They attempted to stop their appliances from becoming a sapient race, a moment too late. 
 

#15
Killjoy Cutter

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The Council comes down to "all for me, none for you". They talk about unity and membership so long as it benefits the overall power structure, but as soon as there's an issue, the talk suddenly becomes "everyone must be able to stand alone". It's pathetic and hypocritcal.

#16
Teknor

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Major Truth wrote...

A council joint forces fleet would have wiped them out quickly and easily.


You don't know that and Council didn't know that. Against mass producing AI, you can never tell.

#17
Major Truth

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Check your timeline.  They attempted to stop their appliances from becoming a sapient race, a moment too late. 
 


Exactly - which was in line with Galactic Law regarding AI's. The Council do not blame the Quarians for the war or their actions in the war. They blame them for creating the Geth in the fist place.

My point is that the Quarians did not intentionally create AI's they created VI's which evolved into AI's

Modifié par Major Truth, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:20 .


#18
Major Truth

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Teknor wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

A council joint forces fleet would have wiped them out quickly and easily.


You don't know that and Council didn't know that. Against mass producing AI, you can never tell.


The Geth were barely Sapient, occupied two planets, had no fleet, and many were not even designed for combat.

I would love to know how you think they could possibly stand any chance against the fleet. The council could have wiped them out from orbit

#19
Major Truth

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Teknor wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

A council joint forces fleet would have wiped them out quickly and easily.


You don't know that and Council didn't know that. Against mass producing AI, you can never tell.


The Geth were barely Sapient, occupied two planets, had no fleet, and many were not even designed for combat.

I would love to know how you think they could possibly stand any chance against the fleet. The council could have wiped them out from orbit

Modifié par Major Truth, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:22 .


#20
MrDizazta

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I believe the Council's reaction to the Quarian Race was way to harsh of a punishment. However, I believe that the Quarian did deserve to be stripped of their embassy. What they tried to commit was genocide even if the Geth are only an AI, at least they had a concept of what a soul was. I only way I would allow the Quarians to have an embassy again is if their relationship with the Geth is improved, meaning the needs to be peace between these to waring races. I am a proud supporter of Admiral Zaal'Koris vas Qwib Qwib. The Geth are the children of the Quarians. Imagine if God were to wipe out the entire human race just because we began to question our exsistence.

#21
Teknor

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Major Truth wrote...

I would love to know how you think they could possibly stand any chance against the fleet. The council could have wiped them out from orbit


I dismissed your other points because they hardly slowed their Quarian genocide and quarians must have a considerable army back then. And they were not limited by their immune system and lack of resources as today.

As for orbital strikes, Geth could retreat to underground. It's not like they need to live on surface. And it is not wise to destroy a planet which the only habitable planet by the quarians either.

Modifié par Teknor, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .


#22
TheBlackBaron

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MrDizaztar wrote...

I believe the Council's reaction to the Quarian Race was way to harsh of a punishment. However, I believe that the Quarian did deserve to be stripped of their embassy. What they tried to commit was genocide even if the Geth are only an AI, at least they had a concept of what a soul was. I only way I would allow the Quarians to have an embassy again is if their relationship with the Geth is improved, meaning the needs to be peace between these to waring races. I am a proud supporter of Admiral Zaal'Koris vas Qwib Qwib. The Geth are the children of the Quarians. Imagine if God were to wipe out the entire human race just because we began to question our exsistence.


They deserved to be stripped of their embassy because they were attempting to implement the laws of the Council?

That's an interesting view.

#23
Major Truth

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Teknor wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

I would love to know how you think they could possibly stand any chance against the fleet. The council could have wiped them out from orbit


I dismissed your other points because they hardly slowed their Quarian genocide and quarians must have a considerable army back then. And they were not limited by their immune system and lack of resources as today.

As for orbital strikes, Geth could retreat to underground. It's not like they need to live on surface. And it is not wise to destroy a planet which the only habitable planet by the quarians either.


1. The Quarians are one race. The Council represents numerous races. The Geth would not stand a chance, no question

2. An Orbital strike does not mean deystroying the planet. The Geth are robots, they could just fry their circutry. Also I doubt the council would announce an attack to the Geth for to give them time to retreat under ground (not that being underground can save you from an attack on a syntethic Level)

#24
Kaiser Shepard

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

They deserved to be stripped of their embassy because they were attempting to implement the laws of the Council?

That's an interesting view.

Oh please, they were skirting the bounds of that law for a while already; it was bound to eventually go wrong.

The law against creating AI was there because of the ethical dilemmas the subjects brings with it, ergo to prevent morally questionable choices such as the destruction - genocide if you will - of a sapient machine race from ever being made.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .


#25
Teknor

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Major Truth wrote...

1. The Quarians are one race. The Council represents numerous races. The Geth would not stand a chance, no question

2. An Orbital strike does not mean deystroying the planet. The Geth are robots, they could just fry their circutry. Also I doubt the council would announce an attack to the Geth for to give them time to retreat under ground (not that being underground can save you from an attack on a syntethic Level)


1.Yeah as if council could send their entire fleet. 

2.Frying circuitry is not as easy as you make out to be. There is still no such tech in ME universe. And i doubt that citadel fleet have the firepower to obliterate the Geth with an instant which you will need if you don't want to give Geth time to retreat. Plus Geth are no idiots. They can detect a massive fleet.