262 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth were young. They had just woke up probably no more than a few months before they were attacked and you want them to have some kind of pre-set range as to when to stop fighting? They didn't even know why they were being attacked and they just wanted to make sure they would survive.

They had three hundred years to go out and talk to... well, just about anyone.

Also you forget that the Quarians have a long history of trying to re-program the Geth. Just because they stopped being a military threat doesn't mean the threat is gone. I bet there were still Qurians trying to reprogram the Geth even towards the end. If you had someone trying to brainwash you and your people you'd probably continue to attack them until they were dead. The Geth just used the Turian war doctrine "Crush your enemy until they can never be a threat again."

This would be a case for war against Quarians later. Not against the Council and other races who would send emissionaries, and it certainly isn't a case for any sort of genocide at any time.

Clearly you can talk to them without getting your head shot off. Legion.

I thought it was rather obvious we were referring to approaching the Geth in the prior three hundred years of Geth history.

Even Legion wasn't an ambassador figure. The first diplomatic contact with the Geth was completely by chance, and against their own intent: infact, even sending Legion out as a (non, or at least famously incompetent) ambassador was a marked change brought about by the Reapers, more than anything else.

I noticed you didn't mention my point about the people being killed was caused by the Heritics, which when you look at the evidence points directly to them and them alone being the guilty party.

I didn't mention because it didn't matter to the points I was making. It still doesn't. If you want to bring them up in regards to a point in particular, feel free.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:56 .

[GodWood]

General User wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
4) Diplomacy is hard when you've had warships sitting outside of your space with their guns ready to fire on any Geth that steps foot outside.

Commodore Perry says 'hi'.

I lol'd.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Try and think about it from their side for a moment the first Organic race they ever knew tried to destroy them utterly because they were alive. The second organic race they saw put war ships outside of their space waiting to kill them... why would they have any logical reason to even want to talk at that point? They have been trying to figure us out for the last 300 years probably trying to decide what to do. They are still trying to figure out the reasons for why the Quarians did what they did in the Mourning war 300 years ago. They are still a new life. We have had thousands of years of societies evolving and adapting they've had a fraction.



When I was reffereing to the Quarians probably trying to reprogram the Geth I was reffering to the ones that were fighting the Mourning War. There would be two logical sides of the Quarian war effort one would be military and the other would be cyberwarfare trying to re-enslave the Geth. Just because the military was defeated didn't mean the Quaraians stopped being a threat in the war. It is clear that once the Quarians decided to leave they weren't followed which meant the Quarians decided when the war was going to end not the Geth.



As for diplomatic talks we also have to take into account the nature of Geth society. They are at their heart a people that want to build their own future and want to be left in peace. When they see organics as nothing but hostile when you have the majority of organics seeing the Geth as evil it doesn't give much reason for the Geth to want to talk when they can just as easily not talk and continue improving on themselves.



Now I will say that the Geth are wrong for being so isolationist in their views. If they had wanted to talk earlier than public opinion would probably be different and it might have made peace with the Quarians easier if they found out that the Geth don't want to kill them and don't want to continue fighting.



Legion was sent out to try and understand the galaxy outside. The Geth can be expected to try and make peace if they don't fully understand the galaxy around them.

[General User]

Just to bring it up in case it hasn't been already, but the orthodox geth weren't entirely isolationist prior to Legion. Legion tells how they routinely interacted with organics, though the organics had no idea they were being interacted by geth at the time. 

They were curious about us, Shepard described it as "poking us for our reactions."
 
This fits the profile of the geth being as children, with the Quarian Genocide being history’s worst temper tantrum.

Modifié par General User, 23 janvier 2011 - 03:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Try and think about it from their side for a moment the first Organic race they ever knew tried to destroy them utterly because they were alive. The second organic race they saw put war ships outside of their space waiting to kill them... why would they have any logical reason to even want to talk at that point? They have been trying to figure us out for the last 300 years probably trying to decide what to do. They are still trying to figure out the reasons for why the Quarians did what they did in the Mourning war 300 years ago. They are still a new life. We have had thousands of years of societies evolving and adapting they've had a fraction.

You know what would be a really, really good, basic, readily available idea for how to build an understanding of organics?


Establishing communications with the willing organics so that you can ask them questions, consider their input to questions you have, and mitigating fears on both sides through limited relations and trust-building verifications.


Even Humans figured this out in the Cold War detente. I'm not going to pretend that aliens are too stupid to consider or record such ideas for a machine-logic race to come over.

When I was reffereing to the Quarians probably trying to reprogram the Geth I was reffering to the ones that were fighting the Mourning War. There would be two logical sides of the Quarian war effort one would be military and the other would be cyberwarfare trying to re-enslave the Geth. Just because the military was defeated didn't mean the Quaraians stopped being a threat in the war. It is clear that once the Quarians decided to leave they weren't followed which meant the Quarians decided when the war was going to end not the Geth.

Something, and I'm not sure what but it could be 'child's sense', suggests to me that the Quarians capable of cyberwar against the Geth were no more all-inclusive than the military population.

As for diplomatic talks we also have to take into account the nature of Geth society. They are at their heart a people that want to build their own future and want to be left in peace. When they see organics as nothing but hostile when you have the majority of organics seeing the Geth as evil it doesn't give much reason for the Geth to want to talk when they can just as easily not talk and continue improving on themselves.

...the reason people think the geth are hostile/potentially highly dangerous is because the geth refuse to talk and blow up the ambassadors after a genocide.

This fear is in no way retroactively disproven when the Geth then do nothing when parts of themselves change their mind and go out and kill more people, proving both (a) that the Geth remain quite capable of dealing great harm if they so choose, ( that they are quite capable of choosing so at any given time as a result of natural processes, demonstrating that the Geth aren't static in their views.

This is not a reassuring or comforting setup, and without any contact to know what the Geth 'politics' are, everyone else is right to be worried about what the Geth may do to them because not even the Geth know what the Geth will think in the future.

On the Geth's part, refusing to talk and maintaining a policy of lethal exclusion is not a mature or respectable diplomatic posture to put everyone else at ease and to not fear you.

Legion was sent out to try and understand the galaxy outside. The Geth can be expected to try and make peace if they don't fully understand the galaxy around them.

Legion wasn't sent out to understand the galaxy in a halfway intelligent manner. Legion was sent out to find Commander Shepard because Commander Shepard killed a Reaper, and the True Geth are concerned about what the Reapers intend for them.

[expanding panic]

General User wrote...

Just to bring it up in case it hasn't been already, but the orthodox geth weren't entirely isolationist prior to Legion. Legion tells how they routinely interacted with organics, though the organics had no idea they were being interacted by geth at the time. 

They were curious about us, Shepard described it as "poking us for our reactions."
 
This fits the profile of the geth being as children, with the Quarian Genocide being history’s worst temper tantrum.

The Geth were not committing genocide they were fighting a war. There is a difference between killing a race that isn't fighting back compared to a race fighting. You can't tell me that the Quarians weren't fighting because they are the ones that started that war. If the Geth truly wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians into space and would have continued the battle there. But the Geth didn't which to me shows that they never wanted to fight that they just wanted to survive. The Quarians were the ones that tried to commit genocide they just failed at it.

[General User]

expanding panic wrote...

General User wrote...

Just to bring it up in case it hasn't been already, but the orthodox geth weren't entirely isolationist prior to Legion. Legion tells how they routinely interacted with organics, though the organics had no idea they were being interacted by geth at the time. 

They were curious about us, Shepard described it as "poking us for our reactions."
 
This fits the profile of the geth being as children, with the Quarian Genocide being history’s worst temper tantrum.

The Geth were not committing genocide they were fighting a war. There is a difference between killing a race that isn't fighting back compared to a race fighting. You can't tell me that the Quarians weren't fighting because they are the ones that started that war. If the Geth truly wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians into space and would have continued the battle there. But the Geth didn't which to me shows that they never wanted to fight that they just wanted to survive. The Quarians were the ones that tried to commit genocide they just failed at it.

Assuming that the current population of the Migrant Fleet is roughly equal to the number of quarians who escaped following the Morning War, and that the quarian population was 2 billion at the time, the geth destroyed 99.15% of the quarian population.
 
Destroying 99+% of a population is far more than should be necessary to neutralize effective resistance under most circumstances.
 
The geth may have been motivated by survival, but their act was certainly one of genocide. 

[James2912]

General User wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

General User wrote...

Just to bring it up in case it hasn't been already, but the orthodox geth weren't entirely isolationist prior to Legion. Legion tells how they routinely interacted with organics, though the organics had no idea they were being interacted by geth at the time. 

They were curious about us, Shepard described it as "poking us for our reactions."
 
This fits the profile of the geth being as children, with the Quarian Genocide being history’s worst temper tantrum.

The Geth were not committing genocide they were fighting a war. There is a difference between killing a race that isn't fighting back compared to a race fighting. You can't tell me that the Quarians weren't fighting because they are the ones that started that war. If the Geth truly wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians into space and would have continued the battle there. But the Geth didn't which to me shows that they never wanted to fight that they just wanted to survive. The Quarians were the ones that tried to commit genocide they just failed at it.

Assuming that the current population of the Migrant Fleet is roughly equal to the number of quarians who escaped following the Morning War, and that the quarian population was 2 billion at the time, the geth destroyed 99.15% of the quarian population.
 
Destroying 99+% of a population is far more than should be necessary to neutralize effective resistance under most circumstances.
 
The geth may have been motivated by survival, but their act was certainly one of genocide. 

I agree! can't deny that! All those poor Quarrian children that were murdered.

[James2912]

They should have a historical video in ME3 showing the Geth going around popping Quarian childrens plastic bubbles.

[General User]

On another line of thought.

Does being a Citadel member race necessarily mean some sort of mutual defense treaty with other Citadel members? If Eden Prime is anything to go by, there well may not be.

And since, no matter the circumstances, the first aggressive act was the quarian’s, could any sort of mutual defense treaty even be invoked by the quarians during the Morning War? I say no.

Even so, the Council would have done well to provide quarian refugee's with sanctuary and even a resettlement option. I’m just not sure that they had any obligation to do so.

Modifié par General User, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:12 .

[Sidac]

James2912 wrote...

They should have a historical video in ME3 showing the Geth going around popping Quarian childrens plastic bubbles.

very sick but at the same time i lol'd quite hard. BUT, the bubbles didnt come until AFTER the migrant fleet was established.

[expanding panic]

General User wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

General User wrote...

Just to bring it up in case it hasn't been already, but the orthodox geth weren't entirely isolationist prior to Legion. Legion tells how they routinely interacted with organics, though the organics had no idea they were being interacted by geth at the time. 

They were curious about us, Shepard described it as "poking us for our reactions."
 
This fits the profile of the geth being as children, with the Quarian Genocide being history’s worst temper tantrum.

The Geth were not committing genocide they were fighting a war. There is a difference between killing a race that isn't fighting back compared to a race fighting. You can't tell me that the Quarians weren't fighting because they are the ones that started that war. If the Geth truly wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians into space and would have continued the battle there. But the Geth didn't which to me shows that they never wanted to fight that they just wanted to survive. The Quarians were the ones that tried to commit genocide they just failed at it.

Assuming that the current population of the Migrant Fleet is roughly equal to the number of quarians who escaped following the Morning War, and that the quarian population was 2 billion at the time, the geth destroyed 99.15% of the quarian population.
 
Destroying 99+% of a population is far more than should be necessary to neutralize effective resistance under most circumstances.
 
The geth may have been motivated by survival, but their act was certainly one of genocide. 

But were they fighting the war the whole time because if the Quarians were fighting back then it is war no matter how severe the loss count is. After all the Quarians were fighting for their home world I can see them staying much onger then they should have to try to win a hopeless war. Did the Geth follow the Quarians off world and continue the war?  Once again if they were fighting over the land and the Quarians didn't leave then it's not genocide its war.

[Relshar]

The council are idiots. They dont believe in the reapers and they see the Quarians as some kind of problem that needs to be brushed under the rug. They never helped humanities colonies when we asked for it, but when the alliance comes in to the Citadel to fight the Geth and Saren they are begging for assitance.

Hypocritical of them if you ask me. Glad I told them to shove my Specter status.

[expanding panic]

Relshar wrote...

The council are idiots. They dont believe in the reapers and they see the Quarians as some kind of problem that needs to be brushed under the rug. They never helped humanities colonies when we asked for it, but when the alliance comes in to the Citadel to fight the Geth and Saren they are begging for assitance.
Hypocritical of them if you ask me. Glad I told them to shove my Specter status.

Your telling me that if someone came to you and told you a race that you have never heard of comes around every 50,000 years and wipes out all civilization completely leaving no evidence that anything was ever there previously not even the race that did the wiping out. You would believe that person? Come on? And your also going to believe that an all powerful ship organized the Geth to attack. Along with little to no evidence to back that theory up. You can't blame the council for not believeing you.

[General User]

expanding panic wrote...
But were they fighting the war the whole time because if the Quarians were fighting back then it is war no matter how severe the loss count is. After all the Quarians were fighting for their home world I can see them staying much onger then they should have to try to win a hopeless war. Did the Geth follow the Quarians off world and continue the war?  

Once again if they were fighting over the land and the Quarians didn't leave then it's not genocide its war.

That really depends on whether or not surrender terms were ever offered, doesn’t it? Offering terms of surrender to the defeated side is part of war. Indeed it may be the thing that distinguishes it from slaughter.

If the geth offered terms, and the quarians refused to accept those terms, then yes, the geth would have been entirely justified in using mass casualty producing weapons to compel them to do so. 
 
Widespread use of mass casualty producing weapons could be a way to push the total casualty figures into the 99% range.
 
But there are two problems with that. First, I don’t recall anything that would lead me to believe that the geth ever offered terms to the quarians in the first place.  It's something that isn't really addressed in any detail as far as I know, much to my chagrin. 
 
Second, in order to kill every single quarian on a planet with a population of 2 billion (minimum), the geth would either of had to execute all surviving quarians (of all ages and dispositions) on an individual basis. And/or, the geth would have had to deploy WMD’s in such massive quantities that Rannoch would most likely have been rendered permanently uninhabitable.
 
Admittedly the existence of advanced climate control/terra(Rannocha?)-forming technology in the hands of a race that has no inherent use for such devices IS good circumstantial evidence of the later.

Modifié par General User, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:39 .

[Arijharn]

You'd think there would be some defense pacts, because what point is there in settling trade agreements if you can not readily protect them?

I'm not really sure what role the Council actually does now. It makes and passes legislature, but how does it keep its member associates honest? Sure, Turian 'intervention' is one method, but while the Council makes up a huge portion of trade, they don't make up the only portions of trade.

Modifié par Arijharn, 24 janvier 2011 - 03:32 .

[Alexander Kogan]

While I do believe that what the Quarians did was wrong in terms of genocide and not trying to understand the geth, as well as continually attacking them when the geth considered peace, the fact that their descendants are still being treated unfairly for a 300 year old crime is too much. The wrong doings of the few do not justify the suffering of an entire race.

[Terraneaux]

Sidac wrote...

QFT! This is exactly what I noticed in ME1.

You forgot the turians tho. They do have the big fleets.

Remember the Turians are just the Council's latest race of button men - As the Krogan were before, and possibly someone before that.  Yes, they've got a council seat, but don't doubt for a minute that the Asari and Salarians would drop them like a hot potato if the opportunity presented itself.  

[James2912]

Terraneaux wrote...

Sidac wrote...

QFT! This is exactly what I noticed in ME1.

You forgot the turians tho. They do have the big fleets.

Remember the Turians are just the Council's latest race of button men - As the Krogan were before, and possibly someone before that.  Yes, they've got a council seat, but don't doubt for a minute that the Asari and Salarians would drop them like a hot potato if the opportunity presented itself.  

If thats true it would explain why the Turians don't like us they feel threatened. 

[Yakko77]

Schutzstaffel wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

Teknor wrote...

It means they are not screwed if somehow Council decided to dump them like they did to Quarians.

If they are at war they could well be. Remember the Quarians went to war only once the realised the Geth were becoming Sapient.

To me I find it very harsh that the council would welcome humanity onto the actual council 26 years after going to war with the Turians yet continue to politically ignore the Quarians

The quarians attempted genocide of a sentient race.

They're barely sentient IMO.  Except for Legion, they're only "self-aware" when in large groups and even then it's just a matter of programming.  Being aware isn't the same as being alive (or is it?  Worth discussing).  Heck, they basically went to war with each other over a "math error" so who's to say their supposed "sentience" isn't just a computing error as well.  Also, in defense of the quarians, they really didn't know it seems what was heppening to the Geth.  They evolved, became something other than what they were intended and built for and the quarians tried to correct it.  The dangers of AIs must've been well known or they wouldn't have been illegal even then so the quarians took the steps needed in an effort to correct the problem and failed, bloodily so.  Bottom line, I rewrote the Geth so I can hopefully use them as connon fodder against the Reapers.

I  guess for all those who think the quarians had it coming or whatever, I ask, what should they have done when they found out their robots had all become AIs? 

If the internet suddenly becomes self aware tomorrow, what then?

Modifié par Yakko77, 25 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[Yakko77]

GodWood wrote...

General User wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
4) Diplomacy is hard when you've had warships sitting outside of your space with their guns ready to fire on any Geth that steps foot outside.

Commodore Perry says 'hi'.

I lol'd.

History jokes always make me laugh.

[slingblade2010]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]
If the geth offered terms, and the quarians refused to accept those terms, then yes, the geth would have been entirely justified in using mass casualty producing weapons to compel them to do so. 
 
Widespread use of mass casualty producing weapons could be a way to push the total casualty figures into the 99% range./quote]


 ****ed up the quotey thing on the box lol sorry



Slingblade wrote:...


I certainly believe mass casualty producing weapons were used.  While its called "The morning war" we actually have no idea how long the war actually lasted.  It could have been a month, a couple weeks, to a few years, but to achieve casualty figures in the 99% either way, WMD's of some sorts had to be used. 

And just to play devils advocate here and threw something new out there, who's to say it was the geth that employed WMD's?  Would it really be that hard to believe that the Quarian government, once it saw  they couldn't defeat the geth in traditional means start using WMD's on highly populated areas?  Its pretty safe to say the geth were pretty integreted in with Quarian society, If they felt they were truly on the verge of being wiped out by the geth  it becomes less of a war and more of a numbers game.  You know what I mean?  Just food for thought.

A less drastic example would be this, I can't remeber what book I was reading, it was fiction but the scenario was real enough.  Basically there was this commander on the other side of a river of a very populated city that was being over run with enemy troops and he didn't have the strength to be nothing but a speed bump to them.  The only way across the river are these bridges, but these bridges are packed full of fleeing refugee's.  However his entire military was in total chaos and if the enemy wasn't slowed down here, it very well could mean the end of the war with his society in complete ruins.  What would you do?

He blew the bridges, killings thousands of his own people, but in the end, because his actions, they were able to mount a proper counter attack and drive the enemy out.  Just an example.

Modifié par slingblade2010, 25 janvier 2011 - 12:31 .

[Yakko77]

slingblade2010 wrote...


A less drastic example would be this, I can't remeber what book I was reading, it was fiction but the scenario was real enough.  Basically there was this commander on the other side of a river of a very populated city that was being over run with enemy troops and he didn't have the strength to be nothing but a speed bump to them.  The only way across the river are these bridges, but these bridges are packed full of fleeing refugee's.  However his entire military was in total chaos and if the enemy wasn't slowed down here, it very well could mean the end of the war with his society in complete ruins.  What would you do?

He blew the bridges, killings thousands of his own people, but in the end, because his actions, they were able to mount a proper counter attack and drive the enemy out.  Just an example.

Churchill had to allow more than a few cities to get bombed without much resistence to keep the fact that they had broken the Enigma Code a secret.  If he had deployed defenses in force to repell those raids then the Germans would've gotten wise that the Brits were reading their mail.

Modifié par Yakko77, 25 janvier 2011 - 12:33 .

[slingblade2010]

War is hell...





Now imagine a genocidal war on a global scale, I don't think its even possible to even fathom the carnage that was being dealt out

[Yakko77]

slingblade2010 wrote...

War is hell...


Now imagine a genocidal war on a global scale, I don't think its even possible to even fathom the carnage that was being dealt out

"It is well that war is so terrible - lest we should grow too fond of it" : General Robert E Lee