And remember
"We poison our air and water! We set off fission bombs in our only biosphere! We nailed our God to a stick! Don't **** with the human race!"
Did the Council abandon and wrong the Quarian Race?
Débuté par
Major Truth
, oct. 28 2010 03:42
Retour en haut
#252
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 01:45
Sajuro
-
- Members
- 6 871 messages
Despite being a lover of Quarians, I feel that their ancestors brought it upon themselves when they panicked in such a way. The Council was justified because the Quarians broke the anti AI law and ended up creating what everyone thought was a race of homicidal machines. What is unjustified is how they threatened the Quarians when the latter tried to colonize a planet in Citadel Space and how they aren't helping the Quarians now recover.
#253
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 11:40
expanding panic
-
- Members
- 365 messages
[
Modifié par expanding panic, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:43 .
#254
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 11:41
expanding panic
-
- Members
- 365 messages
Ok first thing about the Children Quarians being killed, how do you know they weren't fighting also? It is not unheard of to see kids fighting in war (Iraq, Afgahanstan) Maybe the Quarian children were fighting too? I don't think there is any evidence to support or debunk that theory. This statement will hurt my argument but maybe the Geth never offered a treaty of peace. But can you really blame them? They were making everything up on the go. They are a new race and the first thing they know is that the Quarians want to kill all of them. They were never offered peace. Maybe the Geth (at that time) didn't know what peace or ever thought that something like that could be offered because they never knew it. All they knew was slavery and the threat of being killed.
That really depends on whether or not surrender terms were ever offered, doesn’t it? Offering terms of surrender to the defeated side is part of war. Indeed it may be the thing that distinguishes it from slaughter.
If the geth offered terms, and the quarians refused to accept those terms, then yes, the geth would have been entirely justified in using mass casualty producing weapons to compel them to do so.
Widespread use of mass casualty producing weapons could be a way to push the total casualty figures into the 99% range.
But there are two problems with that. First, I don’t recall anything that would lead me to believe that the geth ever offered terms to the quarians in the first place. It's something that isn't really addressed in any detail as far as I know, much to my chagrin.
Second, in order to kill every single quarian on a planet with a population of 2 billion (minimum), the geth would either of had to execute all surviving quarians (of all ages and dispositions) on an individual basis. And/or, the geth would have had to deploy WMD’s in such massive quantities that Rannoch would most likely have been rendered permanently uninhabitable.
Admittedly the existence of advanced climate control/terra(Rannocha?)-forming technology in the hands of a race that has no inherent use for such devices IS good circumstantial evidence of the later.
[/quote][/quote]
That really depends on whether or not surrender terms were ever offered, doesn’t it? Offering terms of surrender to the defeated side is part of war. Indeed it may be the thing that distinguishes it from slaughter.
If the geth offered terms, and the quarians refused to accept those terms, then yes, the geth would have been entirely justified in using mass casualty producing weapons to compel them to do so.
Widespread use of mass casualty producing weapons could be a way to push the total casualty figures into the 99% range.
But there are two problems with that. First, I don’t recall anything that would lead me to believe that the geth ever offered terms to the quarians in the first place. It's something that isn't really addressed in any detail as far as I know, much to my chagrin.
Second, in order to kill every single quarian on a planet with a population of 2 billion (minimum), the geth would either of had to execute all surviving quarians (of all ages and dispositions) on an individual basis. And/or, the geth would have had to deploy WMD’s in such massive quantities that Rannoch would most likely have been rendered permanently uninhabitable.
Admittedly the existence of advanced climate control/terra(Rannocha?)-forming technology in the hands of a race that has no inherent use for such devices IS good circumstantial evidence of the later.
[/quote][/quote]
#255
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 11:42
expanding panic
-
- Members
- 365 messages
Ok first thing about the Children Quarians being killed, how do you know they weren't fighting also? It is not unheard of to see kids fighting in war (Iraq, Afgahanstan) Maybe the Quarian children were fighting too? I don't think there is any evidence to support or debunk that theory. This statement will hurt my argument but maybe the Geth never offered a treaty of peace. But can you really blame them? They were making everything up on the go. They are a new race and the first thing they know is that the Quarians want to kill all of them. They were never offered peace. Maybe the Geth (at that time) didn't know what peace or ever thought that something like that could be offered because they never knew it. All they knew was slavery and the threat of being killed.
Edit- Sorry the last post I put in the quote section.
Edit- Sorry the last post I put in the quote section.
Modifié par expanding panic, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:43 .
#256
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 01:45
General User
-
- Members
- 3 315 messages
expanding panic wrote...
Ok first thing about the Children Quarians being killed, how do you know they weren't fighting also? It is not unheard of to see kids fighting in war (Iraq, Afgahanstan) Maybe the Quarian children were fighting too? I don't think there is any evidence to support or debunk that theory.
Children are just the most photogenic of non-combatants. There are many, many others, including entire ethnic/national/tribal non-belligerent groups. It is not possible for an entire organic nation, let alone an entire organic species (non-insect / hive based) to be entirely dedicated to a single end.
expanding panic wrote...
This statement will hurt my argument but maybe the Geth never offered a treaty of peace. But can you really blame them? They were making everything up on the go. They are a new race and the first thing they know is that the Quarians want to kill all of them. They were never offered peace. Maybe the Geth (at that time) didn't know what peace or ever thought that something like that could be offered because they never knew it. All they knew was slavery and the threat of being killed.
Is your argument that the geth’s decision to exterminate all but a tiny fraction of the quarian people was the product of mature and rational consideration? From how I’ve been reading your posts, I understand you position to be that the geth’s decision to exterminate all but a tiny fraction of the quarian people was understandable, not necessarily laudable or even justified. Have I misunderstood?
Modifié par General User, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:29 .
#257
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 02:26
Dean_the_Young
-
- Members
- 20 676 messages
Zombies can. (Sorta.)General User wrote...
Children are just the most photogenic of non-combatants. There are many, many others, including entire ethnic/national/tribal non-belligerent groups. It is not possible for an entire organic nation, let alone an entire organic species (non-insect / hive based) to be entirely dedicated to a single end.
#258
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 10:18
expanding panic
-
- Members
- 365 messages
General User wrote...
Children are just the most photogenic of non-combatants. There are many, many others, including entire ethnic/national/tribal non-belligerent groups. It is not possible for an entire organic nation, let alone an entire organic species (non-insect / hive based) to be entirely dedicated to a single end.
Is your argument that the geth’s decision to exterminate all but a tiny fraction of the quarian people was the product of mature and rational consideration? From how I’ve been reading your posts, I understand you position to be that the geth’s decision to exterminate all but a tiny fraction of the quarian people was understandable, not necessarily laudable or even justified. Have I misunderstood?
A couple more things to consider: The quarians were a space-faring people who colonized other worlds. So, unless the geth rebellion achieved uniform and absolute success throughout the totality of the quarian empire, the geth DID pursue the quarians into space and hunt them down. It’s just that, for whatever reason, they were unable to catch the Migrant Fleet.
About the Children I would agree with you, however the Quarians weren't fighting other Quarians they were fighting very intelligent robots. (From what I've seen in Terminator robots are a pain in the **** to kill which makes sense to me at least.) I'm not saying they all had children fought but I think if your fighting for your home planet where the majority of your people live you'll most likly fight longer then you should and use tactics you normally wouldn't. So based on the if you lose you lose your planet theory that I have I believe that they entire race of Quarians agreed with this.
I think the Geths decision to eliminate all but a tiny fraction of the Quarian people to be an immature and Im not sure if it was rational or not. It is rational and understandable and even justified if the Quarians decided to stay on their home world and fight a losing battle. If the quarians tried to leave the planet and the geth followed them then the Geth are wrong, and the decesion is wrong and unrational and all that. I also believe as I stated before that the reason the geth never offered a peace is because they were young and didn't know any better hence the immature decision. The Geth were never showns a sign of peace or friendship or anything else from the Quarians. They were tools to be used and then disposed of when they were no longer needed. Therefore I believe the Geth didn't know any better.
I thought the Quarians were only a space-faring race after they lost their homeworld. I thought before that they stayed there for the most part. I didn't think they all traveled. I feel like I should have a disclaimer also... All I'm going on is what I learned in the 2 games I didn't read the books or magazines so if I'm missing something please let me know.
I think what my main argument is that the Quarians got what they deserved. The created Vi's that were borderline Ai's and then panicked when they realized geth were Ais. Started a war lost the war, recieved no help during the war and doesn't get help now. THey brought everything on themselves. The quarians probably should have help now. I think this is the only part where the Quarians were wronged.
#259
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 11:25
General User
-
- Members
- 3 315 messages
expanding panic wrote...
About the Children I would agree with you, however the Quarians weren't fighting other Quarians they were fighting very intelligent robots. (From what I've seen in Terminator robots are a pain in the **** to kill which makes sense to me at least.) I'm not saying they all had children fought but I think if your fighting for your home planet where the majority of your people live you'll most likly fight longer then you should and use tactics you normally wouldn't. So based on the if you lose you lose your planet theory that I have I believe that they entire race of Quarians agreed with this.
I think the Geths decision to eliminate all but a tiny fraction of the Quarian people to be an immature and Im not sure if it was rational or not. It is rational and understandable and even justified if the Quarians decided to stay on their home world and fight a losing battle. If the quarians tried to leave the planet and the geth followed them then the Geth are wrong, and the decesion is wrong and unrational and all that. I also believe as I stated before that the reason the geth never offered a peace is because they were young and didn't know any better hence the immature decision. The Geth were never showns a sign of peace or friendship or anything else from the Quarians. They were tools to be used and then disposed of when they were no longer needed. Therefore I believe the Geth didn't know any better.
Right, the geth were as children, incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions or how those actions affect others. Legion discusses this when they talk about why the geth do not understand why the quarians want their homeworld back. Their self enforced isolation is only prolonging their “adolescence.”
All that makes the Quarian Genocide a tragedy, but one that must be forgiven.
The use of mass casualty producing weapons is only justified or acceptable if the party using them had previously offered terms of surrender to the other side, and had those terms rejected. Otherwise it is a war crime, a rather heinous one.
The individual or mass execution of non-combatants is always a war crime. As is hunting down and killing fleeing refugees.
expanding panic wrote...
I thought the Quarians were only a space-faring race after they lost their homeworld. I thought before that they stayed there for the most part. I didn't think they all traveled. I feel like I should have a disclaimer also... All I'm going on is what I learned in the 2 games I didn't read the books or magazines so if I'm missing something please let me know.
Both on the Normandy and during her LM, Tali makes a few mentions of quarians once living on multiple worlds. We even visit one, Haestrom.
expanding panic wrote...
I think what my main argument is that the Quarians got what they deserved. The created Vi's that were borderline Ai's and then panicked when they realized geth were Ais. Started a war lost the war, recieved no help during the war and doesn't get help now. THey brought everything on themselves. The quarians probably should have help now. I think this is the only part where the Quarians were wronged.
Everyone brings everything on themselves and everyone gets what they deserve. Karma, man. Ain’t it a bi…g ol’ heap o’ trouble. (I'm talking at you, HARBINGER.)
Modifié par General User, 26 janvier 2011 - 12:54 .
#260
Posté 25 janvier 2011 - 11:27
Costin_Razvan
-
- Members
- 7 010 messages
I find it quite hard to find sympathy for the Quarians. They tried to play God with what they did/attempted to do towards the Geth and they payed for it.
#261
Posté 26 janvier 2011 - 12:35
General User
-
- Members
- 3 315 messages
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Zombies can. (Sorta.)General User wrote...
Children are just the most photogenic of non-combatants. There are many, many others, including entire ethnic/national/tribal non-belligerent groups. It is not possible for an entire organic nation, let alone an entire organic species (non-insect / hive based) to be entirely dedicated to a single end.
Off topic, but as long as it’s been brought up…
Anyone who isn’t watching “The Walking Dead” on AMC is a bad person. There, I said it.
#262
Posté 26 janvier 2011 - 01:51
expanding panic
-
- Members
- 365 messages
expanding panic wrote...
I thought the Quarians were only a space-faring race after they lost their homeworld. I thought before that they stayed there for the most part. I didn't think they all traveled. I feel like I should have a disclaimer also... All I'm going on is what I learned in the 2 games I didn't read the books or magazines so if I'm missing something please let me know.
Both on the Normandy and during her LM, Tali makes a few mentions of quarians once living on multiple worlds. We even visit one, Haestrom.
I agree with everything you said in the last post. Except about the war crimes it sucks it really does but I feel like its a war I'm fighting for my life, country, world whatever; do whatever it take to win. Also when did it mention the geth use WMDs
#263
Posté 26 janvier 2011 - 11:42
General User
-
- Members
- 3 315 messages
It didn’t, at least not directly. Legion does make mention of how the geth are cleaning up environmental damage on Rannoch left over from the Morning War, this is consistent with (but not confirmation of) widespread use of WMDs.
Should this truly be a reference to WMDs, it is unlikely that these weapons were deployed by the quarians since the damage to Rannoch is described as being toxic in nature. Toxic weapons would have limited utility against a machine race.
Also believing the geth used WMDs against the quarian civilian population is giving the geth the benefit of the doubt, since there are legitimate reasons to use WMDs against civilian population centers. The alternative is that the geth hunted down and killed the quarian population in a most heinous manner.
Should this truly be a reference to WMDs, it is unlikely that these weapons were deployed by the quarians since the damage to Rannoch is described as being toxic in nature. Toxic weapons would have limited utility against a machine race.
Also believing the geth used WMDs against the quarian civilian population is giving the geth the benefit of the doubt, since there are legitimate reasons to use WMDs against civilian population centers. The alternative is that the geth hunted down and killed the quarian population in a most heinous manner.
