262 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

They deserved to be stripped of their embassy because they were attempting to implement the laws of the Council?

That's an interesting view.

Oh please, they were skirting the bounds of that law for a while already; it was bound to eventually go wrong.

The law against creating AI was there because of the ethical dilemmas the subjects brings with it, ergo to prevent morally questionable choices such as the destruction - genocide if you will - of a sapient machine race from ever being made.

Given that this is the Council we're talking about, I doubt the ethical concerns ever entered into it. More likely reason is the usual fear and paranoia regarding AI races.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

One of the Council's main worries is their irrational fear of AIs believing that all AI = Evil life killers. Any law that is based of of a racist fear is going to involve an overboard emotional reaction when that law is broken. Even if the Quarians didn't mean to make AIs they still did and in the Council's eyes that was unacceptable, not just that but they lost against AIs and now for the first time in galactic history AI's have a territory all their own and they could launch an attack at anytime from the Council's point of view.



There reaction was to blame and punish the race that caused this catastrophy and then to guard against the AI attack....



Was it an overreaction? Yes.If anything the Council could have stepped in and tried to make peace between the two races the way they did with the Turians/humans but their fear of AIs prevented them from doing what they are suppose to do. End a conflict before it gets too bloody and make peace.



They dropped the ball and now we have a Geth race that doesn't want to leave its space because it thinks all organics hate them and a Quarain race that is slowly dying.

[vehzeel]

Major Truth wrote...

Schutzstaffel wrote...

The quarians brought it upon themselves.

Brought what on themselves, the war?, thats a whole other matter, this post is about the councils actions. And what have the Geth done to affect Citadel space over the last 300 years? The actions of the Quarians have not effected the council, only the Quarians themselves. The war had no effect on the council as they refused to become involved

vehzeel wrote...

The quarians got punished as a
collective = Not cool. The council back then were obviously idiots. but
it seems to be a fine tradition, alive and kicking today as well
The
quarians greatly wronged the geth race, on the other hand. I don't
agree that the entire should be doomed to wander the galaxy and be
considered thieves, scavengers and second class citizens, though.
We can congrat the council for making an entire race underclass in one fell swoop. Yay.

So is it not the responsibiliy of the current council to correct the mistakes of previous councils

The quarians should be allowed back into the fold, but question is if the Council has the fleet, men and fire-power to reclaim the quarian homeworld. And the will to do it, of course. And since both geth and organics shoot first and ask questions later, a diplomatic solution is a long way from presenting itself. But I hope Shepard can solve this issue in ME3.

[Major Truth]

Teknor wrote...

1.Yeah as if council could send their entire fleet. 

2.Frying circuitry is not as easy as you make out to be. There is still no such tech in ME universe. And i doubt that citadel fleet have the firepower to obliterate the Geth with an instant which you will need if you don't want to give Geth time to retreat. Plus Geth are no idiots. They can detect a massive fleet.

The Council wouldn't need an entire fleet. Shepard wiped out the heretics with 2 squadmates

You do realise that the Geth of 300 years ago are not the same as the Geth of presnt time in the Mass Effect Universe? They have evolved over time

These Geth were designed to do boring repitive and dangerous tasks, not to wipe out entire races. When a Quarian had a Geth to wash their windows or mine minerals, I doubt they programed in a "Detect any major Galactic fleets and destroy them" function.

You're talking as if the Geth are a major force in the Galaxy, the're not and they never were

[Major Truth]

vehzeel wrote...

The quarians should be allowed back into the fold, but question is if the Council has the fleet, men and fire-power to reclaim the quarian homeworld. And the will to do it, of course. And since both geth and organics shoot first and ask questions later, a diplomatic solution is a long way from presenting itself. But I hope Shepard can solve this issue in ME3.

I actually think the solution isn't that difficult. The Geth don't actually live on the Quarian homeworld, they prefer to live in Space. If the council intervened and gave the Geth incentive to move to another suitable system and aided them in building space stations etc, it would pave the way for the Quarians to be able to return home.

Now people can ask "Why should the Geth have to move", but to me it makes more sense for them to move. They do not need specific conditions like the Quarians, they also are incapable of sentiment and rely on logic, so moving would only be relevent of where they were moving to is sub standard

[TheBlackBaron]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

One of the Council's main worries is their irrational fear of AIs believing that all AI = Evil life killers. Any law that is based of of a racist fear is going to involve an overboard emotional reaction when that law is broken. Even if the Quarians didn't mean to make AIs they still did and in the Council's eyes that was unacceptable, not just that but they lost against AIs and now for the first time in galactic history AI's have a territory all their own and they could launch an attack at anytime from the Council's point of view.

There reaction was to blame and punish the race that caused this catastrophy and then to guard against the AI attack....

If that is indeed the case, then it only strengthens the sentiment that the Council is full and has always been full of a bunch of bloody idiots. If they're worried about an AI race coming into existence and gaining power and territory, why not intervene and help destroy it instead of sitting on their asses?

Was it an overreaction? Yes.If anything the Council could have stepped in and tried to make peace between the two races the way they did with the Turians/humans but their fear of AIs prevented them from doing what they are suppose to do. End a conflict before it gets too bloody and make peace.

I've covered my thoughts on this in other threads, so suffice to say that anybody that thinks it would have been a snap to get everybody to chill out and make peace is...well, shortsighted, imho.

They dropped the ball and now we have a Geth race that doesn't want to leave its space because it thinks all organics hate them and a Quarain race that is slowly dying.

This I can agree on. Doing nothing was infinitely worse than intervening, either with militay support or with diplomacy.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:36 .

[CroGamer002]

Short answer.



YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSS.



Council is pathetic.

Also don't forget about Rachni and Genophage that resulted in the end to help Saren.

[Legbiter]

Not worth the cost in blood and treasure to the Council races for them to save the Quarians bacon.

Modifié par Legbiter, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:42 .

[skcih-deraj]

The quarians made a mistake and it wouldn't have cost them as much if the council helped them earlier. But they choose to abandon them and now the quarians are forced to wander the galaxy.



Had the council helped earlier the heritic geth wouldn't be following the reapers and the "true" geth wouldn't constantly need to be worried about. (One geth is the same as another to me.)

[PrinceLionheart]

skcih-deraj wrote...

The quarians made a mistake and it wouldn't have cost them as much if the council helped them earlier. But they choose to abandon them and now the quarians are forced to wander the galaxy.

Had the council helped earlier the heritic geth wouldn't be following the reapers and the "true" geth wouldn't constantly need to be worried about. (One geth is the same as another to me.)

How's that any different then the "Collective Punishment" the Quarians suffers for what some of them did?

[Jabarai]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

One of the Council's main worries is their irrational fear of AIs believing that all AI = Evil life killers. Any law that is based of of a racist fear is going to involve an overboard emotional reaction when that law is broken.....

The law regarding artificial intelligence wasn't racist, but rather just fear based on potential consequences. An AI - regardless of how it ever got created - would be theoretically capable of expanding and evolving at a rate beyond the capabilities of its creator. That is an inherent problem.

Moreover, there is the dilemma of creating a new life form.

As a whole, I can't see a reason why there should not have been laws against artificial intelligence. Yet, I fully agree the Council can be held responsible for incapacitating a race.

[LorDC]

@OP

Everything is right except one thing. There was no crimes and punishments. Why? Because Council exists solely to promote interests of its member races. Or so it looks from the whole galactic history. Quarian incident is not a crime because crime suggests law and law suggests that everyone is even before it. Which is not the case. And punishments means that you want to teach someone. Council just figured that Quarians are not worth the effort and abandoned them.

[mineralica]

Sorry, I don't believe in Council thought about "fears about AI" or "quarians committed genocide on sapient race". So:

1. Quarians start war with geth to solve problem without help. Reasonable - helping is not Council strongest sides, fees are.

2. Quarians fail. Council races don't send any help because when we see "Council firepower" it commonly means "turians firepower", and turians find it obvious to sгааук from own mistakes and judge race on how many them may sacrifice. See attacks on human colonies in ME2.

3. Quarians leave homeworld, and their embassy is closed. Simply because friendly race forced to limit popularity and wander is big public scandal and "evil creators of heartless killers" homeless is O'k.

4. And homeless they are because planet rich of resourses, as well as dextro - amino acidic planet will come in handy not only for quarians.

[Mandalore242]

I dont know. I think the Quarians got the raw end of the deal from the council, but from what I understand from the game though, they have been given options to colonize other planets and they are too proud and Arrogant to do that because they want their home world back.

[Agamo45]

The Quarians got what they deserved IMO. They attempted to commit genocide against another sentient race. The Council isn't obligated to help them. Attempting to help the Quarians against the geth would surely have resulted in a long and costly war, finding them a new homeworld would be similarly costly. Why should the Council make such sacrifices to help a race who got themselves into this predicament?

[SpectreSeven]

The quarians got what was coming to them, but I think the Council should've given them some form of territory though

[Inquisitor Recon]

They should have destroyed the geth back then (they should still do it now) then worry about punishing those incompetent fools.

[Googlesaurus]

Major Truth wrote...

The Council wouldn't need an entire fleet. Shepard wiped out the heretics with 2 squadmates

I have no idea why you would try to use an in-game example as "proof" of anything. For ME1, being an absolute wrecking ball of a factor is standard fare for a shooter. For ME2, it involved using advanced technology that no one else in the universe has access to. 

I feel that the Council saw this matter as a "this is your problem, now fix it yourself" issue. Having an embassy on the Citadel means squat when the problem was created and (apparently at the time) limited to the decisions of one race. "Fear of AI" developed after the geth successfully won the war and they didn't want the possibility of a repeat. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:04 .

[Dave of Canada]

Quarians got a deserved slap in the face. I feel no sympathy for them or their people.



If given the chance, I'd be siding with the Geth over the Quarians.

[Manic Sheep]

Yes, but this doesn’t exactly seem to be an unusual reaction for the council.

The council is just a power seat for the council races. It exists to promote the interest of the member races. They don’t exist to make sure everthing is all sunshine and butterflys or give hand outs and they don't help the “lesser races” for their sake; they do it when it benefits them. All through ME the council refused to help humans (tho to be honest the alliance wasn’t exactly doing much either.) because the destruction was limited to human colonies and didn't affect them. Same thing with the Quarians, the council will sit on their hands untill they start getting hit. All the other races can’t stand up to them so have to follow the council’s laws.

Other “lesser races” get embassys but that doesn’t seem to mean much. Why don’t the volus or elcor have a seat on the council but the humans eventually do? They have certainly earned one and have been around allot longer than humans. Even before the end of ME where humans hadn’t got a seat on the council the human embassy got a bigger office and more say than they did. Sure the volus get preferential treatment when it comes to rights to worlds but they don’t have any real say in anything. I think it’s because the Volus and Elcor don’t have a strong military and therefore aren’t a threat so they can be pushed around. Humans on the other hand have a strong military and could become problematic if a war was to break out. It’s a better move strategically to let them have a seat on the council and have them as allies. Especially after Sovereigns attack.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Council did unto the Quarians as a Shepard can renegade do unto them: at a point of desperate need, a disaster of galactic proportions and not created out of malice... they stood by, and let another be slaughtered.



Only Renegade Shep lets a fleet die, while the Council did nothing as an entire species was slaughtered.

[TheBlackBaron]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council did unto the Quarians as a Shepard can renegade do unto them: at a point of desperate need, a disaster of galactic proportions and not created out of malice... they stood by, and let another be slaughtered.

Only Renegade Shep lets a fleet die, while the Council did nothing as an entire species was slaughtered.

As a Renegade myself, I disagree with that analogy, Dean.

There are good reasons for letting the Destiny Ascension be destroyed, beyond simple spite, the most often mentioned one being the need to conserve forces to destroy the true threat.

Here? The geth are, in the view of the Council and the rest of the galaxy, a severe threat, and yet they stand by and do absolutely nothing, with there being no actual long-term benefit to doing so.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

The council have proven their selves as massive asses and why the democratic system hasn't ditched them already is beyond me (if there even is one). When I heard about the Quarians asking for help from the council who had the power and resources to wipe out the Geth before they developed to the extent they are now, and that the council denied, that was the final straw.

I may have sympathy for the Geth but I also have for the Quarians and my morals and what the council did was blandantly wrong. What was even worse is that it came back to bite them in the ass when Sovereign and Saren used the geth to invade the Citadel which in my canon, resulted in the councils' death.

Y'know I was really hoping that when the council were taken out they would be replaced with a new, more justified and morally aware council rather than Udina being an ass and taking over.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:38 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Oops double post.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:38 .

[expanding panic]

ATTENTION MAJOR TRUTH



Ok You say the Quarians did not intend to have created such intelligent geth; but they did! It's the same thing if someone drives drunk and hits a kid and kills him. The drunk driver goes to prison for murder. So it wasn't planned but if happened and you have to take responsibility for your actions and the out come of said option.

Major also states that the Quarian government realized what had happened and planed an immediate shut down off all geth; which is basically killing them and if you kill a whole race thats known as genocide.



The reason the Citadel would not help the quarians is because they realized that the quarians were going to try and commit genocide, however the geth were more powerful and they won.



In terms of it being the Quarians home world this is true but you failed to mention that it is also the geths home world now. And the geth were fighting in a war not commiting genocide. The quarians planed to commit genocide. Yea the quarians punishment is harsh but they brought it onto themselves I feel no pity for the,.