262 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

...People, I strongly, strongly doubt the Council really cares whether or not the quarians were attempting genocide.



Remember, these are the same people that will chew you out for letting the Rachni queen go, when killing her is "omg genocide".

[TheBlackBaron]

Shandepared wrote...

Yes.

How very...laconic, Shand.

[Slayer299]

expanding panic wrote...
Ok You say the Quarians did not intend to have created such intelligent geth; but they did! It's the same thing if someone drives drunk and hits a kid and kills him. The drunk driver goes to prison for murder. So it wasn't planned but if happened and you have to take responsibility for your actions and the out come of said option.

The Quarians had built the VI Geth to be more capable of complex tasks, which is not the same thing as creating an AI.

Major also states that the Quarian government realized what had happened and planed an immediate shut down off all geth; which is basically killing them and if you kill a whole race thats known as genocide.

Its considered genocide against a race, the Geth were malfunctioning VI's.

The reason the Citadel would not help the quarians is because they realized that the quarians were going to try and commit genocide, however the geth were more powerful and they won.

The Council couldn't have cared less if the Quarians were going to run around the universe painted neon green with bright pink polka dots on them, much less if they were going to destroy the Geth. The Council exists to further promote the agenda's of the Council members. And as plenty of evidence from both games shows, the Council only acts when it is in their own best personal interests to do so.

In terms of it being the Quarians home world this is true but you failed to mention that it is also the geths home world now. And the geth were fighting in a war not commiting genocide. The quarians planed to commit genocide. Yea the quarians punishment is harsh but they brought it onto themselves I feel no pity for the,.

The Quarian homeworld isn't the Geth's homeworld. Legion has stated that the Geth exist in space stations over Rannoch, not on it. They have however maintained Rannoch for the Quarian-Creators, not themselves.

[Nightwriter]

Hell yes they abandoned and wronged the quarians.

The turian and salarian Councilors who made that call are probably long dead, but I'll bet it's that same damn asari Councilor. Bet she was present for it.

And she acts so fair and superior. Pfft. You don't fool me, b*tch. One day I'll have you assassinated and replaced with Aethyta. One day.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:13 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Wait, what?



Shand and Night agree on something? Seriously? o_0

[Nightwriter]

He has to be correct some of the time.

[Spectre_907]

Most, if not all, actions taken by the Council up until 2183 were both necessary and justified. I have no sympathy for nor believe the Council had any need to aid the ancestors of a race that willingly defied their rule out of their own hubris and carelessness. The quarians got what they deserved.

Now as to whether the quarian race should still be held accountable by the Council, no. The Council is wrong in this. I believe they should help the quarians recover. They will make a valuable ally and they have paid enough for the sins of their ancestors and do not need to continue suffering for it. However there are cases on both sides where this seems unlikely, Ekuna being a case in point.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Slayer299]

The Council did what it has always done, namely, looking out for themselves. The very fact that they are *supposedly* the leaders of all the Council races is not how they really are. When the Quarians asked the Council, the Council did what it will always do, they looked to see if it would affect any of them and when they saw it didn't they left the Quarians to burn by themselves. Ostensibly they claimed that they stripped the Quarians of their embassy over creating an AI, but it seems to be more of "you were too stupid/weak to handle your problem, so we're kicking you out so you don't bring any more to us."



In the end the Council will always do what it does best, look out for themselves...

[Arijharn]

Honestly, in terms of 'big' news, the Citadel gets it more 'wrong' (aka, self-serving) than otherwise.



- They only officially sanction combat operations against the Krogan after the Krogan invaded and 'forcibly settled' an Asari held world, despite the fact that the Krogan had captured and held onto worlds settled by other council species beforehand

- The Council sought to isolate humanity despite it's successes in the political and military arena due to the actions of one 'terrorist' organisation. I think that's the perfect example of a 'one size fits all' mentality that the Council seems to portray.

- The whole Geth/Quarian thing. The fact is that when the Quarian's were driven from their homeworld, they 'illegally' settled another. When they then tried to get formal recognition they were declared essentially squatters and a Turian fleet moved in to encourage the Quarian's to 'move on.' That the world was subsequently awarded to the Elcor just seems to me that the Quarian's were doubly penalised for their past actions.

[Chuvvy]

Yeah, I mean I sort of hate the quarians but they did get boned. I mean they started the war with the geth, but they did almost get wiped out. They could have used some help.

[Nightwriter]

You realize the game sort of contradicts itself? The Codex says the geth showed the galaxy the danger of AI and that the geth's example alone "led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligence in galactic society".

This makes it sound like the Council had no specific laws regarding AI at the time of the geth's creation, which makes it hard to say the quarians "got what they deserved" for breaking galactic law.

Then Tali goes and implies the Council did have laws regarding AI, the quarians just skirted them.

[Chuvvy]

Nightwriter wrote...

You realize the game sort of contradicts itself? The Codex says the geth showed the galaxy the danger of AI and that the geth's example alone "led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligence in galactic society".

This makes it sound like the Council had no specific laws regarding AI at the time of the geth's creation, which makes it hard to say the quarians "got what they deserved" for breaking galactic law.

Then Tali goes and implies the Council did have laws regarding AI, the quarians just skirted them.

Contradictions in Mass Effect? LIES! LIES AND SLANDER!

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

You realize the game sort of contradicts itself? The Codex says the geth showed the galaxy the danger of AI and that the geth's example alone "led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligence in galactic society".

This makes it sound like the Council had no specific laws regarding AI at the time of the geth's creation, which makes it hard to say the quarians "got what they deserved" for breaking galactic law.

Then Tali goes and implies the Council did have laws regarding AI, the quarians just skirted them.

Maybe the Council did have AI laws before the geth revolt, but either reinforced them after the Morning War or wrote new ones. I find it difficult to believe advanced societies with the technology to create AIs wouldn't also have written laws to regulate them. Perhaps before the Morning War, AI development was only restricted while after the war, restrictions on AIs were tightened to such a degree as to effectively ban almost all AI research (I think Synthetic Insights was still doing some limited work on Noveria).

As for the Council's motivations for abandoning the quarians, I think it had to do more with fear and self-interest than malice. The Citadel fleets are large, but not extravagantly so. Of the three Council races, only the turians are a true military powerhouse. We also have to take into account that these fleets have other responsibilities to uphold - they're not just sitting around waiting to be called up for an emergency.

If push does come to shove, the fleets at the Citadel's dispoal will protect the interests of the species that owns them first, the overall order and stability of Council space second, the other Council races third, and everyone else last.

The geth revolt may have been so sudden and so unexpected that the Council may have decided it was just safer to blockade off the quarian homeworlds than wade into a fight against a synthetic enemy they had no experience in battling.

As for the reasons for humanity getting a seat despite having fought the turians in a war just a few decades earlier, I think the Council recognizes that humanity is a rising power and it's better to have us on their side than fight us. As another militaristic race, we can back up the turians and our rapidly growing economy offers investment opportunities for the Council races. Humanity may have gotten preferential treatment over the quarians because the quarians before the Morning War just weren't as dynamic militarily or industrially as humanity is in 2183.

[Arijharn]

To that point fongiel, I think human military dominance of the Turian military during the Shanxi battles was more than slightly shocking.



I think it's because of the Citadel's quick aid to intervene on the behalf of humanity means that the reported Turian casualties was probably greatly understated. Since humanity was eager for lasting diplomatic contact, perhaps the Systems Alliance agreed to downplay the Turian casualties? (Or perhaps plain didn't know how effective they were?)



I can't really imagine Turian's mobilizing for full-scale war happens very often unless certain very specific buttons were pressed.

[Nightwriter]

fongiel24 wrote...

Maybe the Council did have AI laws before the geth revolt, but either reinforced them after the Morning War or wrote new ones. I find it difficult to believe advanced societies with the technology to create AIs wouldn't also have written laws to regulate them. Perhaps before the Morning War, AI development was only restricted while after the war, restrictions on AIs were tightened to such a degree as to effectively ban almost all AI research (I think Synthetic Insights was still doing some limited work on Noveria).

In that case I'll do you one better and say that I find it hard to believe the quarians were the first to experiment with AI beyond what is safe.

fongiel24 wrote...

As for the Council's motivations for abandoning the quarians, I think it had to do more with fear and self-interest than malice.

To be honest, I don't feel that self-interest is much better than malice. In fact, I believe it is worse.

I don't particularly hold it against the Council that it did not launch into a war against the geth to help the quarians. I hold it against them that they turned their backs on the quarians completely, totally, and utterly. They kicked the quarians out of the Citadel, went out of their way to make sure the quarians' attempts to settle new worlds were thwarted, and have stood by while quarians become the gypsies, tramps, and thieves of the galaxy, without even a Cher to sing a catchy song about their lifestyles.

[fongiel24]

Arijharn wrote...

To that point fongiel, I think human military dominance of the Turian military during the Shanxi battles was more than slightly shocking.

I think it's because of the Citadel's quick aid to intervene on the behalf of humanity means that the reported Turian casualties was probably greatly understated. Since humanity was eager for lasting diplomatic contact, perhaps the Systems Alliance agreed to downplay the Turian casualties? (Or perhaps plain didn't know how effective they were?)

I can't really imagine Turian's mobilizing for full-scale war happens very often unless certain very specific buttons were pressed.

I suspect that if it hadn't been for Council intervention, the turians would have stomped us through the floor. I have a feeling the asari and salarians stopped the turians from doing so because they realized humanity's potential and wanted to take a wait-and-see approach. Humanity seems very different from any of the other lesser races. We're portrayed as more individualistic, more ambitious, and more ruthless. Militarily, the only other species that is as naturally good at killing people and blowing things up is the turians. 

Shandepared wrote...

I think the Council intervened because they feared the turians had discovered a new rachni-caliber race. Had the Council known the truth, that the human fleet was paltry compared to the Turian Hierarchy, they'd' have probably let them conquerus. In retrospect I'm sure they regret that decision.

Intelligent life in the galaxy probably isn't all that common. Intelligent races as dynamic as humanity are probably even rarer. I doubt the asari and the salarians would be willing to just let the turians wipe out an intelligent race without very good reason. They might also have feared that the turians would subjugate us and harness our strengths to gain an advantage over them.

Here's how I see it going down: The turians are surprised by human resistance at Shanxi and mass a fleet to take us out. The salarian STG picks up on the turian military buildup and they and the asari convince the turians to back off. Humanity is special in some way and just wiping us out would be a waste. They decide to invite humanity into the galactic community so they can see how well we play with others. If we become a problem later, then the turians are free to stomp us.

As it turns out, the salarian and asari gamble works out. Humanity proves capable of cooperating and is useful in acting as a buffer and proxy against rogue races like the batarians. Even in the case of a Renegade ME1 ending, I'd still say the gamble worked because if it wasn't for Shepard and the Arcturus fleet, the Council would have been wiped out by the Reapers along with everybody else.

Nightwriter wrote...

In that case I'll do you one better and say that I find it hard to believe the quarians were the first to experiment with AI beyond what is safe.

They probably weren't. The quarians were just unfortunate enough to be the first ones to have their experiments blow up in their collective faces. I imagine before the Morning War, everybody was skirting restrictions on AI research all the time. After the Morning War, the Council went "Oh sh*t, maybe we should start taking this AI thing seriously!" and started cracking down.

To be honest, I don't feel that self-interest is much better than malice. In fact, I believe it is worse.

I don't particularly hold it against the Council that it did not launch into a war against the geth to help the quarians. I hold it against them that they turned their backs on the quarians completely, totally, and utterly. They kicked the quarians out of the Citadel, went out of their way to make sure the quarians' attempts to settle new worlds were thwarted, and have stood by while quarians become the gypsies, tramps, and thieves of the galaxy, without even a Cher to sing a catchy song about their lifestyles.

Continuing to pick on the quarians even after they lost the war does seem oddly vindictive. I wonder if the quarians did something to ****** off someone important before the geth revolt.

Modifié par fongiel24, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Nightwriter]

We are given astonishingly little information about the quarians' pre-geth relationship with the Council, aren't we?

In fact, I don't know why the quarians weren't a Council race before the geth war.

There are 17 million quarians and that's just the survivors of the war, there were millions and millions more. They had multiple colonies. They apparently had a military fleet big enough to evacuate millions of people. They had power and ingenuity.

This screams Council candidacy to me.

[fongiel24]

Shandepared wrote...

How could they know anything about our potential when they didn't know anything about us? All they knew was that we'd managed to surprise the turians, motivating them to gear up for major war. For all the Council knew we were as big and powerful as they were. The Council feared a new war as long and bloody as the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions. That is why they stepped in.

A finding a way to make us useful (and try to control us) came later.

We're a space-faring race that managed to hold off the turians. That says plenty about our potential. Compared to the rachni, we're also much more similar to the Council races both in terms of our physiology and technology. I think all of that would be enough for the salarians and the asari to restrain the turians so they could at least get a better look at us.

I also find it hard to believe that the salarians, who specialize in intelligence, wouldn't have bothered doing some investigating as soon as they got wind of the turian buildup. I don't think the Council stopped the turians from fightng us out of fear.

[AdamNW]

What good is a united governmental body if they just cast aside anyone within their system who needs their help?

[fongiel24]

Shandepared wrote...

All our victory really says is that we're dangerous. What motivated the Council to action wasn't our victory, it was the turian's response to it.

But the turians react the same way to everybody who challenges them, regardless of whether they're a threat to the security of the rest of the galaxy or not.

They (the turians) are not easily spurred to violence, but when conflict is inevitable, they only understand a concept of "total war." They do not believe in skirmishes or small-scale battles; they use massive fleets and numbers to defeat an adversary so completely that they remove any threat of having to fight the same opponent more than once. They do not exterminate their enemy, but so completely devastate their military that the enemy has no choice but to become a colony of the turians. It is theorized that another conflict between the rapidly advancing humans and the turians could annihilate a large portion of known space.

Whether it was us or a weaker power like the batarians, the modus operandi of the turians would have remained the same. Their strategic thinking lacks the concept of a "measured response". We surprised the turians in our first few engagements with them, but I doubt anyone mistook us for a rachni or krogan-level threat at the time of First Contact.

What I find puzzling is that the turians didn't have a huge technological edge. Most major technologies are based on Prothean tech but the turians have been in space much longer than us and should have built on what they learned from the Protheans. Shouldn't their military technology have far outstripped ours? Their military advantage seems to have been purely numerical rather than qualitative.

Modifié par fongiel24, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:25 .