262 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

That's a point a lot of Renegades have been making for quite a while...

[Nightwriter]

The quarians made a mistake. But what was unleashing the krogan on the galaxy? What was opening the relay that let the rachni in?

The quarians aren't the only ones who make mistakes. They're just the only ones who are forever condemned for them.

[Slayer299]

Maybe what the Council wants is an ongoing, visual lesson with the Quarians. Something they can point to and say "this is what happens when you go against Council laws" to keep reminding everyone how powerful they are and what happens when you go against them. They can't do that to the Salarians for obvious reasons and that leaves their now whipping boys, the Quarians...

[fongiel24]

Slayer299 wrote...

That's a point a lot of Renegades have been making for quite a while...

What point?

Nightwriter wrote...

The quarians made a mistake. But what was unleashing the krogan on the galaxy? What was opening the relay
that let the rachni in?

The quarians aren't the only ones who make mistakes. They're just the only ones who are forever condemned for them.

I think these days people just see the quarians as easy targets to pick on. I don't think anybody is actively gunning for them because of a failed experiment with the geth that happened centuries ago. If they are, it's more racism on the part of individuals rather than the Council still having a bone to pick over the geth. Any problems the Council has with the quarians probably has more to do with their current habits of squatting their fleet over inhabited systems and stripmining or scavenging everything in sight.

Modifié par fongiel24, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Spectre_907]

Nightwriter wrote...

The quarians made a mistake. But what was unleashing the krogan on the galaxy? What was opening the relay that let the rachni in?

The quarians aren't the only ones who make mistakes. They're just the only ones who are forever condemned for them.

How else were the Council supposed to defeat the rachni? The krogan were needed to defeat them. It was war. But it is not as if it was sanctioned by the Council to uplift them. It was discovered by salarians and they did the uplifting. At most the Council went along with it. Also, it is not known if the Council ordered those salarian explorers to open the relay to rachni controlled space.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Spectre_907]

Edit: Double post.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:24 .

[Spectre_907]

fongiel24 wrote...

I think these days people just see the quarians as easy targets to pick on. I don't think anybody is actively gunning for them because of a failed experiment with the geth that happened centuries ago. If they are, it's more racism on the part of individuals rather than the Council still having a bone to pick over the geth. Any problems the Council has with the quarians probably has more to do with their current habits of squatting their fleet over inhabited systems and stripmining or scavenging everything in sight.

Case in point.

[Isaidlunch]

Slayer299 wrote...

Maybe what the Council wants is an ongoing, visual lesson with the Quarians. Something they can point to and say "this is what happens when you go against Council laws" to keep reminding everyone how powerful they are and what happens when you go against them. They can't do that to the Salarians for obvious reasons and that leaves their now whipping boys, the Quarians...

This is a good point. While it was acceptable to punish the Quarians at the time, there's no decent reason to keep punishing them when their ancestors, the ones who did it, are long gone. This actually reminds me a lot of the werewolves in DA:O (yes I know it's an ME thread, but it makes for a good comparison).

I'd be interested in seeing what the reaction from the Council would be should the Quarians + the Geth establish peace.

[lovgreno]

I suppose the Council could change their policy of ignoring the quarians if they wasn't so unpopular due to the Migrant Fleets habit of strip mining systems (wich they do for a good reason but it's still understandable if it makes them unpopular). The quarians are a very small and politicaly and economicaly powerless people on the brink of extinction so it's not like they are in the position to demand anything from anyone. The quarians weakness is also a reason for them to be denied a embassy as a council race needs some economical and military strenght behind their claims but sadly the quarians have none of that.

[Arijharn]

We didn't surprise the Turian's in our first few engagements. As I recall they discovered us attempting to activate a relay, they destroyed all the ships bar one who managed to limp off to Shanxi. Presumably the Council had explored/discovered Shanxi's location at some point in it's history because they managed to accurately predict that fleeing vessel's trajectory and accurately guessed it's destination.



They then arrived, bombed the Shanxi colony and defense infrastructure into ash, forced General Williams to offer his surrender at some point in time, but not before they managed to get some coded distress beacon sent to Alliance High Command. Message arrives, the world's nations were paralysed with fear and then moral indgination, Systems Alliance head honcho got pissed and directed Admiral Konstantine Drescher to lead a fleet to recapture the Shanxi garrison.



Meanwhile, the Turian's were settling into a protracted siege with human guerrilla operations despite General William's surrender (why would the Turian's remain otherwise?) and were caught with their pants down when the Systems Alliance arrived and quickly caught the Turian's in their flanks and destroying their support craft (which is what the Alliance is famous for, it's 'unconventional' military doctrine. When you think about it, the Systems Alliance operates in a blend of both Turian and Salarian military commands). The Turian fleet sent to hold the Shanxi garrison must have been smashed to pieces or at the very least, the vast majority must have been permanently crippled and only a comparative few managed to escape the system back to its 'home' Mass Relay and if that's true, then the Turian forces on the ground must have been under real pressure and danger of being surrounded and overwhelmed.

[Major Truth]

expanding panic wrote...

ATTENTION MAJOR TRUTH

You have my attention

expanding panic wrote...
Ok You say the Quarians did not intend to have created such intelligent geth; but they did! It's the same thing if someone drives drunk and hits a kid and kills him. The drunk driver goes to prison for murder. So it wasn't planned but if happened

No you would actually be convicted of manslaughter, not murder

expanding panic wrote...
The reason the Citadel would not help the quarians is because they realized that the quarians were going to try and commit genocide, however the geth were more powerful and they won.

Nope, the council were punishing the Quarians for creating the Geth in the first place

expanding panic wrote...
In terms of it being the Quarians home world this is true but you failed to mention that it is also the geths home world now.

The Geth don't live on the planet they live on space stations

[NPH11]

I think both sides are at fault for what has occured. Both sides made very quick decisions without thinking of the consequences. The Quarians made the mistake of creating an AI, albiet accidentally, but they reacted to the issue rashly and ended up starting a war and getting themselves thrown off their homeworld. That being said, the Council also acted rashly when they quickly did everything they could to distance themselves from the Quarians. The Council didn't own the Quarians anything. They didn't need to intervene to help them fight the Geth and were right not to do so, but at this point they should really just let the issue die and give the Quarians another chance insted of using them as an example of what happens when you break galactic law.

[Major Truth]

added a poll to the original post

[Nightwriter]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The quarians made a mistake. But what was unleashing the krogan on the galaxy? What was opening the relay that let the rachni in?

The quarians aren't the only ones who make mistakes. They're just the only ones who are forever condemned for them.

How else were the Council supposed to defeat the rachni? The krogan were needed to defeat them. It was war. But it is not as if it was sanctioned by the Council to uplift them. It was discovered by salarians and they did the uplifting. At most the Council went along with it. Also, it is not known if the Council ordered those salarian explorers to open the relay to rachni controlled space.

The point is that when a Council race makes a mistake, they are not hung out to dry.

[Slayer299]

fongiel24 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

That's a point a lot of Renegades have been making for quite a while...

What point?

Sorry, my bad for not being clearer. I was responding to AdamNW's  "What good is a united governmental body if they just cast aside anyone within their system who needs their help?"

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

The point is that when a Council race makes a mistake, they are not hung out to dry.

Double standards sure are fun, aren't they?

[Christmas Ape]

Yes.



We done here?

[Killjoy Cutter]

fongiel24 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

All our victory really says is that we're dangerous. What motivated the Council to action wasn't our victory, it was the turian's response to it.

But the turians react the same way to everybody who challenges them, regardless of whether they're a threat to the security of the rest of the galaxy or not.

They (the turians) are not easily spurred to violence, but when conflict is inevitable, they only understand a concept of "total war." They do not believe in skirmishes or small-scale battles; they use massive fleets and numbers to defeat an adversary so completely that they remove any threat of having to fight the same opponent more than once. They do not exterminate their enemy, but so completely devastate their military that the enemy has no choice but to become a colony of the turians. It is theorized that another conflict between the rapidly advancing humans and the turians could annihilate a large portion of known space.

Whether it was us or a weaker power like the batarians, the modus operandi of the turians would have remained the same. Their strategic thinking lacks the concept of a "measured response". We surprised the turians in our first few engagements with them, but I doubt anyone mistook us for a rachni or krogan-level threat at the time of First Contact.

What I find puzzling is that the turians didn't have a huge technological edge. Most major technologies are based on Prothean tech but the turians have been in space much longer than us and should have built on what they learned from the Protheans. Shouldn't their military technology have far outstripped ours? Their military advantage seems to have been purely numerical rather than qualitative.

One of the underlying issues in the ME setting is that the Council races have technologically stagnated to some degree at that point, having come to rely on the semi-unravelled secrets unearthed from previous civilizations -- just as the Reapers seem to want it. 

Part of what makes humanity different in the ME setting -- especially the Asari if Aethyta is dead-on -- is that they found all this Prothean stuff, said "nom nom nom", and then started adapting it in new and novel ways. 

[Nightwriter]

I sometimes find it odd that humanity is hailed as the only race capable of ingenuity and inspired leaps. Makes me go "hmm".

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

I sometimes find it odd that humanity is hailed as the only race capable of ingenuity and inspired leaps. Makes me go "hmm".

At least in ME, the Salarians seem to value novel solutions, and the Quarians seem to do a lot with a little. 

With the Asari, I don't think it's that they're incapable, it's a cultural issue.  Same sort of thing with the Turians, who culturally seem to have an issue with anyone getting too far out of the norm with anything -- the nail that sticks out gets hammered.

[fongiel24]

The strange thing is that the SR-2's weapon upgrade and armour upgrade are explicitly stated to be turian and asari innovations respectively so clearly those two species are both able and willing to create new technological innovations in certain situations.

[lovgreno]

They still beat everyone else, including humans and quarians, to creating the most powerfull cannon in the galaxy. That takes some innovative and adaptive thinking.

[Moiaussi]

The Geth had just wiped out the majority of the Quarian fleet and the vast majority of the Quarian population. It is not a given that the Council had sufficient fleet strength at the time to win if they engaged. They would have almost certainly taken severe losses even if they won.



If you start a war with someone else, and lose, how many other lives should you expect to be lost to avenge you?



Why, precisely, would the Council owe the Quarians anything?



The Council stood ready in case the Geth did expand, but they did not.