262 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Geth had just wiped out the majority of the Quarian fleet and the vast majority of the Quarian population. It is not a given that the Council had sufficient fleet strength at the time to win if they engaged. They would have almost certainly taken severe losses even if they won.

If you start a war with someone else, and lose, how many other lives should you expect to be lost to avenge you?

Why, precisely, would the Council owe the Quarians anything?

The Council stood ready in case the Geth did expand, but they did not.

The Council stood by...*period*, there was no in case of.

[Moiaussi]

Slayer299 wrote...

The Council stood by...*period*, there was no in case of.

Incorrect, it was 'in case of.' They didn't merely stand by, they patrolled this side of the veil and were on standby specificly against the Geth.

You don't normally keep fleets on standby forever. Standby means everyone at battle stations, deployed or ready to deploy, leaves cancelled, etc.
 
Active patrolling means increased supply costs.

[Moiaussi]

mrsph wrote...

There is a good chance the Council would have demanded the quarians shut off the geth anyway. So it was a lose lose situation.

Despite Council laws against AI's, the Council seems more concerned with AI development than actual AI's. Their reaction to the Geth, for example, seemed more live and let live.

[expanding panic]

Modifié par expanding panic, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:33 .

[expanding panic]

Major Truth wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

ATTENTION MAJOR TRUTH

You have my attention

I am glad, I wanted it.

expanding panic wrote...
Ok You say the Quarians did not intend to have created such intelligent geth; but they did! It's the same thing if someone drives drunk and hits a kid and kills him. The drunk driver goes to prison for murder. So it wasn't planned but if happened

No you would actually be convicted of manslaughter, not murder

In New Jersey if you commit murder while in the process of a felony you get Felony Murder. And since its a felony I assume that is for all over the United States since its a federal law. Unless you live in another country.

expanding panic wrote...
The reason the Citadel would not help the quarians is because they realized that the quarians were going to try and commit genocide, however the geth were more powerful and they won.

Nope, the council were punishing the Quarians for creating the Geth in the first place

Ill admit that I did not read the books or anything so maybe it said it there. But you cant so nope this is the reason (which is your opinion) and not back it up. Give me reasons!

expanding panic wrote...
In terms of it being the Quarians home world this is true but you failed to mention that it is also the geths home world now.

The Geth don't live on the planet they live on space stations

So the planet is abandoned? Then why don't the Quarians just go back? I thought Tali said something about the geth taking it.

[fongiel24]

Slayer299 wrote...

Sorry, my bad for not being clearer. I was responding to AdamNW's  "What good is a united governmental body if they just cast aside anyone within their system who needs their help?"

The Council is like the UN - a clumsy, corrupt, ineffective bureaucracy that pretends to act in the interests of everyone but in reality serves only to protect the powerful. That said, it's better than nothing. The alternative is that we abolish the Council and have the galaxy ruled completely by the law of the jungle.

Shandepared wrote...

Sure, but it pales in comparison to things like the Normandy. Stealth is way more impressive.

Without knowing precisely what was involved in miniaturizing the Sovereign's weaponry and adapting it for use in small fleet combatants, stating that stealth is "way more impressive" is conjecture. We don't know how difficult the Thanix cannons were to develop compared with what was put into the Normandy - we don't have enough information to make a call either way.

In any case, the Normandy was the result of joint Alliance-Turian Hierarchy co-development. We don't know what the division of labour was, but we do know the Normandy wasn't solely a human technological achievement.

Modifié par fongiel24, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Soahfreako]

I doubt the Council knew about the Geth AS SOON as the war between the geth and quarians began. So I don't know why you included that in the punishments. How could they have known? Sure they could've sent distress signals to the Citadel, but I doubt that they could've reached them in time to do any real action. The real punishment was that the Council took away the quarian assembly on the citadel and won't let a quarian become a councilor.

[Urazz]

Major Truth wrote...

Teknor wrote...

It means they are not screwed if somehow Council decided to dump them like they did to Quarians.

If they are at war they could well be. Remember the Quarians went to war only once the realised the Geth were becoming Sapient.

To me I find it very harsh that the council would welcome humanity onto the actual council 26 years after going to war with the Turians yet continue to politically ignore the Quarians

Umm...Weren't the Turians were the ones to start that war with humanity?  Not to count the fact that humanity wasn't even held by the laws and conventions of the council at that point so they did no wrong. 

[fongiel24]

Shandepared wrote...

No, you're wrong. That's like saying that inventing a longer spear is at all comparable to inventing agriculture. One of them fundamentally changes the course of history, the other does not. The stealth technology of the Normandy completely changes the capabilities of any forces that have access to it. Thanix guns? Not so much. Sure, it's an impressive weapon, but it's no super weapon and at the end of the day it's just more firepower.

The stealth technology of the Normandy doesn't make it invincible and it's not perfect either. If the Collectors and the Reapers could track it down, it's only a matter time before that technology becomes available to the rest of the galaxy, particularly if Cerberus managed to get their hands on the Collector station.

The Thanix cannon isn't just a "longer spear" either. We're talking about packing near capital ship firepower into a minor combatant. It has the potential to completely change the way commanders use smaller vessels like frigates. Whereas before a frigate's weaponry made it a mere nuisance to larger vessels unless deployed in wolfpacks, now even a single frigate poses a serious threat to capital ships if it's able to close the range without being picked off.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Sure, but it pales in comparison to things like the Normandy. Stealth is way more impressive.

Considering the Thranx cannon was significantly more effective against the collector vessel than the Normandy's normal weapons whereas the Normandy's stealth was completely useless, it is hard to argue that stealth is more impressive.

[Moiaussi]

fongiel24 wrote...

The Council is like the UN - a clumsy, corrupt, ineffective bureaucracy that pretends to act in the interests of everyone but in reality serves only to protect the powerful. That said, it's better than nothing. The alternative is that we abolish the Council and have the galaxy ruled completely by the law of the jungle.

It is easy to knock the UN, but which of those 'powerful, protected members' should be sacrificing exactly what? Similarly, which Council race should give up territory that they are spending the effort to keep clear and safe of piracy and other threats just because humans, or quarians, or whoever else who has not put effort into the region wants to move in? It might be one thing if said parties were willing to accept some sort of non-resident status and immigration proccess, but the reality is that it is more like Mexico saying 'Pardon, we need more space. Can we have New Mexico please?,' then getting upset when the US says no.

Similarly it is easy to condemn others for not laying down their lives in an attempt to save yours, especially when they started the war, and the war isn't endangering the nations being called on. This is not to say that intervention is wrong, just that it should never be expected.

[Arijharn]

I thought that in the case of Silaris armour, it was human designed but Asari built?

[GuardianAngel470]

The quarians deserved the war, but not the population destruction. The council should have stepped in, at least to save the people if not to fight the war themselves. The Turian, Asari, and Salarian militaries are there for peace keeping, and they seriously failed in this. I find the Rwanda genocide is comparable, at least when it comes to the behavior of the international/galactic peace keeping forces.



The insult added to the quarians' injury is appalling. They are at 17 million now, after the growth of their fleet over 3 centuries. They were likely much smaller at the time of their appeal to the council. What the council did was look at a man bleeding from the gaping holes where his limbs used to be and tell him he needs to get himself to the hospital, 45 miles away. On top of that, they cut off his ears too by kicking them off the Citadel, crippling their future even further.

[Moiaussi]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The quarians deserved the war, but not the population destruction. The council should have stepped in, at least to save the people if not to fight the war themselves. The Turian, Asari, and Salarian militaries are there for peace keeping, and they seriously failed in this. I find the Rwanda genocide is comparable, at least when it comes to the behavior of the international/galactic peace keeping forces.

The insult added to the quarians' injury is appalling. They are at 17 million now, after the growth of their fleet over 3 centuries. They were likely much smaller at the time of their appeal to the council. What the council did was look at a man bleeding from the gaping holes where his limbs used to be and tell him he needs to get himself to the hospital, 45 miles away. On top of that, they cut off his ears too by kicking them off the Citadel, crippling their future even further.

There is a major difference between the Morning War and Rwadna though. The Geth were a lot better armed than the Rwandans are. It is not a given that the Council fleets at the time could have won, and for the more long lived races, they still remembered the Rachni war and Krogan uprisings.

It is likewise not clear how long the war actually lasted. It may have been over before the Council could mobilize for that scale of engagement. Someone here was saying it was long and bloody, but I have not seen any actual confirmation of that claim.

[curly haired boy]

the council are always about covering their own asses, ESPECIALLY when it comes to new species.



let's look at what they've gone through:



starts off with salarians and asari, and they think the galaxy is all full of peaceful species like them.



enter the rachni



the rachni very nearly wipe the council races from the face of the galaxy. we are talking full-scale retreat in preparation for extinction. it's only the discovery and elevation of the krogan that saves the council. then the krogan rebellions occur, and it's only contact with the turians that saves the council's ass.



they've been badly burned TWICE by new species coming onto the scene. when the quarians started asking for council aid because they were getting SLAUGHTERED BY A NEW MACHINE RACE, the council said no. as far as they were concerned, this was a first contact situation. the geth were obviously bent on war with the quarians, and to help them might escalate that into a new galactic conflict.



in the council's eyes, the quarian situation wasn't "a citadel species calls for aid" but "a citadel species may have awakened a bleeping TERRIFYING new enemy, but it appears they're the only targets at this point."



it's appeasement, pure and simple.



so yes, the quarians got the short end of the stick, and the council has refrained from aiding them in ANY way simply because they don't want to anger the geth.



do i like this? no.

[Moiaussi]

curly haired boy wrote...

so yes, the quarians got the short end of the stick, and the council has refrained from aiding them in ANY way simply because they don't want to anger the geth.

do i like this? no.

And if the Council had gone to war and learned they didn't have the neccessary fleet strength? The Geth were not expansionistic. To them it was a war of survival. The Quarians had just attempted genocide against them (or attempted to wipe them out entirely, for those who nitpick that they don't have genes), and they retaliated in kind... but they didn't pursue. They didn't continue.

Civil wars are tricky to intervene in even when you have superior firepower, and the Geth were well enough armed to force the Quarians to flee in the first place.

[_purifico_]

What in your opinion should the council have done to help the quarians? Gave them a planet to colonize? Destroyed the geth? Negotioate a truce with the geth (as the quarians are incapable of this it seems)?

[Slayer299]

_purifico_ wrote...

What in your opinion should the council have done to help the quarians? Gave them a planet to colonize? Destroyed the geth? Negotioate a truce with the geth (as the quarians are incapable of this it seems)?

Any of the above would have been acceptable, instead they sat and did nothing, standard Council MO/

[curly haired boy]

Moiaussi wrote...

curly haired boy wrote...

so yes, the quarians got the short end of the stick, and the council has refrained from aiding them in ANY way simply because they don't want to anger the geth.

do i like this? no.

And if the Council had gone to war and learned they didn't have the neccessary fleet strength? The Geth were not expansionistic. To them it was a war of survival. The Quarians had just attempted genocide against them (or attempted to wipe them out entirely, for those who nitpick that they don't have genes), and they retaliated in kind... but they didn't pursue. They didn't continue.

Civil wars are tricky to intervene in even when you have superior firepower, and the Geth were well enough armed to force the Quarians to flee in the first place.

oh, they definitely had the fleet strength, and the capability to defeat the geth (imagine salarian AI researchers!), but they didn't want to get involved in another war.

[Slayer299]

Moiaussi wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

The Council stood by...*period*, there was no in case of.

Incorrect, it was 'in case of.' They didn't merely stand by, they patrolled this side of the veil and were on standby specificly against the Geth.

You don't normally keep fleets on standby forever. Standby means everyone at battle stations, deployed or ready to deploy, leaves cancelled, etc.
 
Active patrolling means increased supply costs.

But what good was just patrolling the other side of the veil? They didn't step in militarily or even to try and see if negotiations were even an option. And afterwards they cut the Quarians off from anything help from anyone else, much less their threat to wipe out any planet the Quarians wanted to settle on.

So by the Council's inaction, they did just 'stand by'.

[Major Truth]

Where is this idea that it would not be certain that the council were capable of beating the Geth coming from?



The majority of Geth at the time were not even designed for Combat (granted they have evolved over time), they were designed to do dangerous and tedious manual labour. They had no access to Ships and were based on one planet



The Quarians clearly believed they could defeat them in a war (granted they were wrong), so I don't believe how anyone can believe that the Quarians, Turians, Salarians combined would not be capable of wiping them out



Its abundently obvious the only reason they did not enter the war is because they chose not to

[skcih-deraj]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

skcih-deraj wrote...

The quarians made a mistake and it wouldn't have cost them as much if the council helped them earlier. But they choose to abandon them and now the quarians are forced to wander the galaxy.

Had the council helped earlier the heritic geth wouldn't be following the reapers and the "true" geth wouldn't constantly need to be worried about. (One geth is the same as another to me.)

How's that any different then the "Collective Punishment" the Quarians suffers for what some of them did?

They have flash light heads!!!

But seriously after the geth won they could have made up terms and allowed the quarians return to their worlds. (They didn't)  Even if the "heritic" geth joined the reapers much later on that doesn't excuss a sapient race to force another to live the wat quarians do.  (So one geth is the same as any other to me "heritic" or not)

Sure the quarains have tried to fight the geth when they thought victory was possible , but the geth haven't made any out standing leeps in diplomacy either.  If the council was so worried about the the walking lamps then the should have aided the quarians.