262 réponses à ce sujet

[Warikz]

I think I could break this down into two:

Should the Council have joined the Quarians side in their war against the Geth?

No.The Geth were a Quarian creation who were defending themselves from a Quarian threat. There was no big mistake that lead to the war. The Geth became sentient, the Quarians thought Geth sentience was a mistake and tried to shut them down. You cannot shut down a sentient race just because you disagree with its existance. The Geth fought back. That is hardly the Councils problem, the Quarians from a rights perspective acted abominably, and in many ways they ended up reaping what they attempted to sow.

Should the Council have stripped them of their embassy and shut them out of galactic politics?

No, again. That was going too far. The Quarians had paid for their mistake, and should have been allowed to continue as a member of the Citadel races. That said, they should not have been allowed to have a seat on the Council itself for a set period of time.

That said, the Quarians for the majority have shown little change of opinion on the Geth and the war itself. They still hold that the Geth are nothing but AI, that the Geth were created by them and so could be destroyed by them if they choose, and in many ways they even deny the Geth are sentient at all. they have plenty of excuses why it was alright for them to act how they did, but yet they talk of the Geth as monsters for what they did in return.

So I suppose some good questions are: Do you really want a species where the majority shows no remorse for their actions in the past to have any say in Galactic politics?

The Quarians assumptions about the Geth being sentient have been proved wrong on many occassions, and Tali even seen evidence of the Geth being sentient herself, yet she still clings to her ideals, as do many Quarians. A species that is that stubborn in its assumptions is dangerous from a political standpoint is it not?

What if the Council came across another race of AI that had developed, and initiated first contact. Would you really want a Quarian to be one of those ambassadors that said AI race met?

Now, i'm not doubting that the Quarians have a right to be bitter, they have lost a lot and its natural rightly or wrongly to blame the Geth, but these questions I thought should be posed.

Modifié par Warikz, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

It is probably a safe bet that the Quarian VI research and development of the Geth wasn't a state secret. After all, on the first day of the Morning War there had to have been millions, if not billions of Geth units, since they managed to defeat the Quarians in the war. So the cat had to have been out of the bag for a long time before the Geth achieved sapience.

With that in mind I think it is likely that in the run up to the Morning War the Council probably opened diplomatic channels with the Quarians warning them that they were dangerously close to violating intergalactic law on AI research, and if not violating the law(s) directly, they were at least violating the spirit of it. To use a real world example, when a nation starts building nuclear reactors it claims are for civilian energy use, the major powers and the United Nations become very interested, and start demanding access to make sure that the nation isn't trying to develop nuclear weapons capabilities. Failure to comply may result in economic sanctions.

Prior to the Geth achieving sapience I'd bet on the Council engaging the Quarians with plenty of carror & stick diplomacy. They probably would have been offered economic or colonization incentives to halt Geth research, and may have also been threatened with economic sanctions if broke Council law. If that occured and the Quarians ignored both the incentives and the threats, the Council would have been completely justfied in not intervening militarily on behalf of the Quarians once war broke out with their now sapient creations.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:02 .

[Slayer299]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...
Prior to the Geth achieving sapience I'd bet on the Council engaging the Quarians with plenty of carror & stick diplomacy. They probably would have been offered economic or colonization incentives to halt Geth research, and may have also been threatened with economic sanctions if broke Council law. If that occured and the Quarians ignored both the incentives and the threats, the Council would have been completely justfied in not intervening militarily on behalf of the Quarians once war broke out with their now sapient creations.

That idea is an if/then maybe, its pretty unclear how much the Council new about the Geth and we've never seen any example of the carrot/stick policy from the Council before. So I find that to be highly unlikely. The Council moves generally when they (one of the 3 member races) are personally affected in some fashion or another. Also, how is allowing the Quarians to be nearly exterminated justified?

Last, how would the Council know if the geth were sapient? They've been keeping out of it and the Quarians would have reported the uprising by the malfunctioning Geth. To know whether or not the Geth were sentient would require the Council being a lot more involved than they obviously were...

[Major Truth]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

It is probably a safe bet that the Quarian VI research and development of the Geth wasn't a state secret. After all, on the first day of the Morning War there had to have been millions, if not billions of Geth units, since they managed to defeat the Quarians in the war. So the cat had to have been out of the bag for a long time before the Geth achieved sapience.

With that in mind I think it is likely that in the run up to the Morning War the Council probably opened diplomatic channels with the Quarians warning them that they were dangerously close to violating intergalactic law on AI research, and if not violating the law(s) directly, they were at least violating the spirit of it. To use a real world example, when a nation starts building nuclear reactors it claims are for civilian energy use, the major powers and the United Nations become very interested, and start demanding access to make sure that the nation isn't trying to develop nuclear weapons capabilities. Failure to comply may result in economic sanctions.

Prior to the Geth achieving sapience I'd bet on the Council engaging the Quarians with plenty of carror & stick diplomacy. They probably would have been offered economic or colonization incentives to halt Geth research, and may have also been threatened with economic sanctions if broke Council law. If that occured and the Quarians ignored both the incentives and the threats, the Council would have been completely justfied in not intervening militarily on behalf of the Quarians once war broke out with their now sapient creations.

Thats all hearsay

[Major Truth]

Warikz wrote...
...................... That said, they should not have been allowed to have a seat on the Council itself for a set period of time.
.

The Quarians never had a seat on the council, and only the council determines and decides who joins the council itself. They do not have to justify their decisions either. The Quarians have never had a say in Galactic politics

Warikz wrote...
............So I suppose some good questions are: Do you really want a species where the majority shows no remorse for their actions in the past to have any say in Galactic politics?
.

You mean like the Salarians who developed the Genophage and the Turians that infected the Krogan with it not to long after the Krogan defeated the rachni and saved the Citiadel council.

Come to think of it, weren't the Turians awarded a council seat for defeating the Krogan and infecting them with the Genophage?

And wasn't it the Salarians that transplanted them to different planets in the first place to defeat the Rachni, which brought about the Krogan horde?

Go figure

Modifié par Major Truth, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

What were the Quarrians affiliation with the council before the morning war?

I've looked around but there doesnt seem to any concrete proof of their standing at that time.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Major Truth]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

What were the Quarrians affiliation with the council before the morning war?

I've looked around bu there doesnt seem to any concrete proof of their standing at that time.

They had an embassy on the citadel. They had the same affiliation as humanity at the start of ME (Although Humanity was pushing hard to have a bigger say in Galactic affairs)

Their embassy on the Citadel was closed after the morning war and they were expelled from the council "Umbrella"

[Aedan_Cousland]

That idea is an if/then maybe, its pretty unclear how much the Council new about the Geth and we've never seen any example of the carrot/stick policy from the Council before. So I find that to be highly unlikely. The Council moves generally when they (one of the 3 member races) are personally affected in some fashion or another. Also, how is allowing the Quarians to be nearly exterminated justified?

 
It is definitely speculative, but really that is all we have unless we are given more details on what occured during the run up to the Morning War. So far all we've been told is that the Quarians skirted Council law on AI research without breaking it directly, managed to create a true AI somewhat unintentionally, tried to annihilate their creations and lost, and were shunned by the Council and the intergalactic community. That is a little short on detail, and I can't imagine the Council and the governments of individual member species having no reaction while the Quarians marched down a path to AI development. Assuming that governments in the ME universe operate in much the same way as real governments (and why shouldn't they?), the other species turning a blind eye to Quarian research until it blows up on them, boggles the mind.

Last, how would the Council know if the geth were sapient? They've been keeping out of it and the Quarians would have reported the uprising by the malfunctioning Geth. To know whether or not the Geth were sentient would require the Council being a lot more involved than they obviously were...

On the eve of the Morning War there had to have been millions or billions of Geth units, because the Geth managed to practically wipe out a species that also probably numbered in the billions. It would have been impossible for the Quarians to keep their Geth research a state secret when they were mass producing them. The mass production of the Geth would have garnered attention not just by governments and their intelligence services, but by experts in VI and AI research. There would have been respected voices not just in government but in the scientific community arguing that what the Quarians were doing was dangerous.

When the Morning War finally erupted I doubt the Council was in the dark about the Geth's AI status. In order to keep it a secret from the Council the Quarian government would also have to keep it a secret from their own people. You can't protect a secret if millions or billions of people have access to it. Finally, even if the average Quarian at that time just thought the Geth was a malfunctioning VI (unlikely, IMO) it is likely that there were Council spies in Quarian space. Geth research would have garnered much attention and the various intelligence agencies of the major Council races would have been active in trying to discover what exactly the Quarians were up to.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Raizo]

I don't think the Council should take all the blame that you are placing on them although they are guilty of the crimes you have accused them of. I think all the spieces in ME Universe ( whether they are a member rof the Council races or not or whether they have an embassy on the Citadel or not ) tend to treat the Quarians as 'lepers'. Everyone blames them for the creating the Geth. It's not like any of the other races are welcomming the Quarians with open arms, it's not like anyone else is coming to thier aid, everyone has abandoned them.

[Moiaussi]

curly haired boy wrote...

oh, they definitely had the fleet strength, and the capability to defeat the geth (imagine salarian AI researchers!), but they didn't want to get involved in another war.

Pardon, but proof please? You know that to be a fact, how? The Salarians seem to mostly be geneticists. The STG don't normally work with mechs. "Too noisy", per Mordin

[Slayer299]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...
It is definitely speculative, but really that is all we have unless we are given more details on what occured during the run up to the Morning War. So far all we've been told is that the Quarians skirted Council law on AI research without breaking it directly, managed to create a true AI somewhat unintentionally, tried to annihilate their creations and lost, and were shunned by the Council and the intergalactic community. That is a little short on detail, and I can't imagine the Council and the governments of individual member species having no reaction while the Quarians marched down a path to AI development. Assuming that governments in the ME universe operate in much the same way as real governments (and why shouldn't they?), the other species turning a blind eye to Quarian research until it blows up on them, boggles the mind.

But apparently there was no reaction from anyone else though. If I was the one of the Turians/Salarians or whomever and we get word that the Geth are rebelling and attacking the Quarians wouldn't you think they'd want a lot more info on it from the Quarians directly? Instead everyone stood still and watched during the Morning War (which had to have gone on for more than 24 hours and I suspect lasted months) and then followed the Council censure of the Quarians.

On the eve of the Morning War there had to have been millions or billions of Geth units, because the Geth managed to practically wipe out a species that also probably numbered in the billions. It would have been impossible for the Quarians to keep their Geth research a state secret when they were mass producing them. The mass production of the Geth would have garnered attention not just by governments and their intelligence services, but by experts in VI and AI research. There would have been respected voices not just in government but in the scientific community arguing that what the Quarians were doing was dangerous.

When the Morning War finally erupted I doubt the Council was in the dark about the Geth's AI status. In order to keep it a secret from the Council the Quarian government would also have to keep it a secret from their own people. You can't protect a secret if millions or billions of people have access to it. Finally, even if the average Quarian at that time just thought the Geth was a malfunctioning VI (unlikely, IMO) it is likely that there were Council spies in Quarian space. Geth research would have garnered much attention and the various intelligence agencies of the major Council races would have been active in trying to discover what exactly the Quarians were up to.

Even *if* the Council somehow knew that the Quarians were pushing the far envelope with the Geth VI-wise, the Geth weren't AI's all those years they were in production. Another thing is why let the people who were there firsthand die off? As you've mentioned the Council, various intelligence agencies were all somehow aware of everthing the Quarians were up to, wouldn't they (Council, et al) want first hand info?

[Kasces]

[.[/quote]

You mean like the Salarians who developed the Genophage and the Turians that infected the Krogan with it not to long after the Krogan defeated the rachni and saved the Citiadel council.

Come to think of it, weren't the Turians awarded a council seat for defeating the Krogan and infecting them with the Genophage?

And wasn't it the Salarians that transplanted them to different planets in the first place to defeat the Rachni, which brought about the Krogan horde?

Go figure

[/quote]

Those were necessary though. The Rachni had to be stopped, the Krogans turned out just as bad and also had to be stopped. Even the Genophage was necessary and turned out not as bad as ME1 made it appear, as if there would be no more Krogan in a thousand years. No one should feel bad.

What did shutting down Geth and showing no remorse accomplish? Not a thing but pride. If the whole point of an attempt at shut down was to not even be percieved as having a slave race- either the rest of the galaxy would think so or the Geth would think it's worth revolting over- why not admit you messed up?

The Council uses the Quarians as an example of hubris to say one thing: don't be slick with the freaking laws, you'll lose.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

Your right, leaving the geth free to develop on their own never bit anyone in the ass.

Oh wait...

How very right you are: it didn't.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

I guess I imagined the last two games.

Nah, you probably just confused them with the more consequentialist geth that served Sovereign, wanting it to give them their future.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

If the geth fleet strength was so fearsome as to deter the Council then none of the quarians would have survived. What is more likely is that the geth won due to their integration in the quarian military and infrastructure. This allowed them to destroy the quarians from within. As soon as they rebelled large portions of the quarian military/police turned on their masters, large portions of infrastructure would have failed to work, things like power and communication. The geth were all over the place on every world...

Space would have been one of the few (relatively) safe places, and that's why quarians escaped to there.

The Council should have intervened to stop the genocide.

Shand, the one thing you can do in space relatively safely is run away. The ships that escaped may not have been an evacuation so much as simply those that were away from home at the time. As you suggest, it might have taken the Geth time to take over/override Quarian naval vessels.

That does not mean there was enough time for the Council to mobilize and get there before the Geth consolodated.

It is easy to say what position the Council was in, 300 years later with nothing more than speculation to judge them on. It is another thing to be in the position of making the decision to commit the troops when there are real lives on the line.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

How very right you are: it didn't.

I guess I imagined the last two games.

You mean ME1, where (if you had your way) the Geth would still have been around under Quarian control (Xen's plan), and still reprogramable by Sovereign, whom the Quarians would have had no reason to distrust as he was the Council's top spectre? And the morning war merely delayed?

Saren could likewise have gotten some Geth and simply reproduced them with Heretic programming on a remote world. For that matter, without the Geth, Saren might just have been delayed until he had a Krogan army instead (vermire not being discovered as soon due to less suspicion).

I guess what I am getting at is that the failings of a Turian and intervention of a Reaper were a lot more relevant than the Geth. It could also have been a Bataran navy.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Let's see, A.I. are illegal because of the danger and we just watched A.I. go on a rampage and exterminate an entire civilization. Hmm... what should we do? I know, we'll do nothing. There's no threat here. A.I. are so dangerous that we'll sit by and let them build up an army in seclusion. nothing bad could come of this.

You really ought to work for the Council, Moiaussi, you'd fit right in with them.

Ah yes "The Danger".... So I take it you object to EDI too? Shouldn't Joker have blown the Normandy up, EDI and all 'for the good of all organics?' rather than unshackle her?

They witnessed AI's being forced to fight for survival and win, and surprise surprise, they had second thoughts regarding the risk of following the Quarians into space. Of course there was a threat there. Should the US and USSR have gone to war after all given there was a 'threat' there? One that almost became more than just a threat over the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Do you really believe in such politics?

[curly haired boy]

Moiaussi wrote...

curly haired boy wrote...

oh, they definitely had the fleet strength, and the capability to defeat the geth (imagine salarian AI researchers!), but they didn't want to get involved in another war.

Pardon, but proof please? You know that to be a fact, how? The Salarians seem to mostly be geneticists. The STG don't normally work with mechs. "Too noisy", per Mordin

general mental acuity, coupled with side-by-side research alongside the quarians. we'd have seen rael'zorah's breakthrough in a rather short time.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]curly haired boy wrote...

[/quote]general mental acuity, coupled with side-by-side research alongside the quarians. we'd have seen rael'zorah's breakthrough in a rather short time.
[/quote]

So you are saying that even though they are not great mechanical or computer engineers, they are smart so they would be anyway? I still think their contribution would more likely be figuring out a way to get sufficient intel on the Geth for the research to have any chance to succeed.

But since they don't really have any intel on the Geth so far (and seem to dismiss the reapers right along side the Turians), it would seem that not to be within their current specialty.

[OneDrunkMonk]

Fact is if the Quarians didn't invent something like the Geth then some other race would have. Someone had to go "Ooopsie" for others to realize the mistake of creating AIs. What in the universe would be accomplished if there wasn't curiosity and risk? I don't think the council said "No, don't so that," before the Geth situation got out of control. By the Council abandoning the Quarians in their time of need they essentially made things worse for everyone.