262 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidac]

Terraneaux wrote...

You have to understand, the reason that the Council didn't step in to help the Quarians, and the reason it told them to gtfo, was that the Council isn't a charity for races like the Quarians... it's a charity for the Salarians and Asari. Everything the council does is based around securing the economic and political dominance of those two races, and making sure that there are other races around with strong enough militaries to throw under the bus in case of war. Notice that as soon as the humans show up the Batarians start getting short shrift from the council? It's because the humans have a stronger military, the Batarians aren't as useful to the Salarians and Asari.

Also this is why a Council-Supporting Paragon is kind of a tool.

QFT! This is exactly what I noticed in ME1.

You forgot the turians tho. They do have the big fleets.

Modifié par Sidac, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:10 .

[GodWood]

expanding panic wrote...
"Shutting down" the Geth is the same as killing a Quarian. And the Quarian scientist were going to "Shut Down" (Kill) every innocent Geth because they MAY have got out of hand. The Geth did the same thing that the Quarians were going to do. The Geth just succeeded where the Quarians had failed.
Incase you hadn't noticed that argument you just made works both ways. 

What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

[Sidac]

GodWood wrote...

expanding panic wrote...
"Shutting down" the Geth is the same as killing a Quarian. And the Quarian scientist were going to "Shut Down" (Kill) every innocent Geth because they MAY have got out of hand. The Geth did the same thing that the Quarians were going to do. The Geth just succeeded where the Quarians had failed.
Incase you hadn't noticed that argument you just made works both ways.

 

What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Well as legion explains, they (geth) didnt fight to purposelly kill every living quarian, they fought for continued existance. The Quarians overreated and It bit them in the ass. They could have tried an approach that didnt involve killing every geth out there.

Modifié par Sidac, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:13 .

[expanding panic]

GodWood wrote...

expanding panic wrote...
"Shutting down" the Geth is the same as killing a Quarian. And the Quarian scientist were going to "Shut Down" (Kill) every innocent Geth because they MAY have got out of hand. The Geth did the same thing that the Quarians were going to do. The Geth just succeeded where the Quarians had failed.
Incase you hadn't noticed that argument you just made works both ways. 

What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Now that is the question that needs to be answered. I never thought of it like that but...
Refresh my memory,
I don't think the geth attacked anyone. from what I remember one of the geth asked "what their purpose was" and that scared the Quarians and then the Quarians went to shut down the Geth. I believe Legion said that. Now I don't trust Legion but assuming he is correct why not just talk to them feel them out then go from there. Why jump straight to killing?

Again am I remembering everything right?

[expanding panic]

Sidac wrote...

GodWood wrote...

expanding panic wrote...
"Shutting down" the Geth is the same as killing a Quarian. And the Quarian scientist were going to "Shut Down" (Kill) every innocent Geth because they MAY have got out of hand. The Geth did the same thing that the Quarians were going to do. The Geth just succeeded where the Quarians had failed.
Incase you hadn't noticed that argument you just made works both ways.

 

What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Well as legion explains, they (geth) didnt fight to purposelly kill every living quarian, they fought for continued existance. The Quarians overreated and It bit them in the ass. They could have tried an approach that didnt involve killing every geth out there.

Again assuming Legion is telling the truth all of the Quarians were probably fighting one way or another because they were fighting for their home planet. So I'm sure the Quarians didn't have people just sitting around not doing anything. They were fighting for their life. 

On another note Im guessing Sidac is a Geth fan so you may say he's a bit one sided. Me I don't care for either race. Just an extra tidbit of information

[ISpeakTheTruth]

GodWood wrote...

expanding panic wrote...
"Shutting down" the Geth is the same as killing a Quarian. And the Quarian scientist were going to "Shut Down" (Kill) every innocent Geth because they MAY have got out of hand. The Geth did the same thing that the Quarians were going to do. The Geth just succeeded where the Quarians had failed.
Incase you hadn't noticed that argument you just made works both ways. 

What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Talk. The Geth never showed any agression toward the Quarians at any point during their awakening, why was killing them the only possability that the Quarians could see. Sure you could argue that the Geth possed a great threat to the Quarians if they became hostile... but attacking the Geth only insures that they Geth will become hostile to defend themselves.

The Geth wanted to know if they were alive and the Quarian response was 'AHHH KILL IT KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!11!!'
I do feel bad for how the current Quarains are living but they have no one to blame but themselves and their ancestors for trying to commit genocide on a race that had done nothing to provoke any hostility. All their wounds are self inflicted and we should be more angry at the Quarains for destroying their own society than we should be at the Council for not bailing them out.

@expanding panic If you don't trust Legion than can you trust Tali? Because she gives the exact same story about the Mourning War. In ME1 she says that once the Geth started to ask if they were alive she says the Quarians attacked. If pressed as to why they felt the need to attack she pretty much says. "Oh they would have attacked us if we didn't because..... well ..... it doesn't matter why we just knew that they'd attack us."

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[GodWood]

expanding panic wrote...

GodWood wrote...
What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Now that is the question that needs to be answered. I never thought of it like that but...
Refresh my memory,
I don't think the geth attacked anyone. from what I remember one of the geth asked "what their purpose was" and that scared the Quarians and then the Quarians went to shut down the Geth. I believe Legion said that. Now I don't trust Legion but assuming he is correct why not just talk to them feel them out then go from there. Why jump straight to killing?

Again am I remembering everything right?

That's basically the gist of it.
Here is a link to the wiki's summary of it.
And despite of that I still think what quarians did was the right idea - it just turned out terribly.

[GodWood]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

GodWood wrote...
What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Talk. The Geth never showed any agression toward the Quarians at any point during their awakening, why was killing them the only possability that the Quarians could see. Sure you could argue that the Geth possed a great threat to the Quarians if they became hostile... but attacking the Geth only insures that they Geth will become hostile to defend themselves.

The Geth wanted to know if they were alive and the Quarian response was 'AHHH KILL IT KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!11!!'
I do feel bad for how the current Quarains are living but they have no one to blame but themselves and their ancestors for trying to commit genocide on a race that had done nothing to provoke any hostility. All their wounds are self inflicted and we should be more angry at the Quarains for destroying their own society than we should be at the Council for not bailing them out.

They could of talked and negotiated yes but the reason they probably didn't was because:

1/ In their eyes they have now accidently created a race of slaves which more than likely won't be happy to be such.

2/ The political ramifications it would have had. It is illegal to create AI's and it's likely the Council would of came down on the quarians with an iron fist.

3/ They really didn't realize how terribly things would turn out.
I honestly think the quarians didn't expect such a large scale war to come out of it.
What I'm thinking they expected to happen was they'd simply shut down all the geth as quickly as possible and at worst face only a minor resistance.
Then they'd wipe their brow and think "Keelah that was close. Lets not do that again" and receive a scolding from the council.

Unfortunately that was not the case.

Modifié par GodWood, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:55 .

[expanding panic]

GodWood wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

GodWood wrote...
What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Now that is the question that needs to be answered. I never thought of it like that but...
Refresh my memory,
I don't think the geth attacked anyone. from what I remember one of the geth asked "what their purpose was" and that scared the Quarians and then the Quarians went to shut down the Geth. I believe Legion said that. Now I don't trust Legion but assuming he is correct why not just talk to them feel them out then go from there. Why jump straight to killing?

Again am I remembering everything right?

That's basically the gist of it.
Here is a link to the wiki's summary of it.
And despite of that I still think what quarians did was the right idea - it just turned out terribly.

I bet the geth think it ended wonderfully. I think the quarians should have talked to the geth first and seen what was going on and seen if there was any way they could co exist. And if they couldn't (Which I doubt because they did for how many years before) then you go to war and ask the council for help and explain why.  And to your other post, (again if i remember correctly) The quarians didn't creat the Geth as AI's the Geth evolved into Ai's the Quarians made the Geth dangerisly close to Ai's but they would have been known as Vi's. And I'm sure the council knew what the quarians were doing when they build the geth or after anyway. Still you don't jump right to war you try to talk things out first. War should be a last resort.
Also thanks for the link.


. @expanding panic If you don't trust Legion than can you trust Tali? Because she gives the exact same story about the Mourning War. In ME1 she says that once the Geth started to ask if they were alive she says the Quarians attacked. If pressed as to why they felt the need to attack she pretty much says. "Oh they would have attacked us if we didn't because..... well ..... it doesn't matter why we just knew that they'd attack us."

@ I speak the truth   Oh really? I don't remember that. I only played ME1 twice so I forgot that. The Quarians did it to themselves it sucks but they started the events that lead to them losing their homeworld. 

[McAllyster]

I think the Council did the same thing with the geth problem like the Reaper problem. "Geth? They are just toasters, there are no evidence about how dangerous can the geth be".

[lovgreno]

It's so easy to say who did right or wrong several generations after the Geth rebellions. At the time everyone panicked: geth, quarians and Council. I can't blame them as it was a situation no one had experienced before.

[PrinceLionheart]

expanding panic wrote...

GodWood wrote...

expanding panic wrote...
"Shutting down" the Geth is the same as killing a Quarian. And the Quarian scientist were going to "Shut Down" (Kill) every innocent Geth because they MAY have got out of hand. The Geth did the same thing that the Quarians were going to do. The Geth just succeeded where the Quarians had failed.
Incase you hadn't noticed that argument you just made works both ways. 

What do you propose the quarians should of done than?

Now that is the question that needs to be answered. I never thought of it like that but...
Refresh my memory,
I don't think the geth attacked anyone. from what I remember one of the geth asked "what their purpose was" and that scared the Quarians and then the Quarians went to shut down the Geth. I believe Legion said that. Now I don't trust Legion but assuming he is correct why not just talk to them feel them out then go from there. Why jump straight to killing?

Again am I remembering everything right?

Actually, it was Tali who said that, not Legion.

[expanding panic]

lovgreno wrote...

It's so easy to say who did right or wrong several generations after the Geth rebellions. At the time everyone panicked: geth, quarians and Council. I can't blame them as it was a situation no one had experienced before.

So because a situation never happened before your first reaction is to attack and kill before you ask questions? Hey lets begin a war on a race that has never shown any signs of hostility towards you. All they did was ask a question and you want to kill it. The Quarians over reacted. You sit down and talk to find out what they want. Not go and start a war with a race that doesn't feel pain because they are machine so they'll just keep coming. The Quarians screwed up. Big time.

[lovgreno]

expanding panic wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

It's so easy to say who did right or wrong several generations after the Geth rebellions. At the time everyone panicked: geth, quarians and Council. I can't blame them as it was a situation no one had experienced before.

So because a situation never happened before your first reaction is to attack and kill before you ask questions? Hey lets begin a war on a race that has never shown any signs of hostility towards you. All they did was ask a question and you want to kill it. The Quarians over reacted. You sit down and talk to find out what they want. Not go and start a war with a race that doesn't feel pain because they are machine so they'll just keep coming. The Quarians screwed up. Big time.

In retrospective, yes, the quarians overeacted and screwed up. In retrospective you can also say that the geth got too agressive and that the Council was wrong to abandon the quarians when the war wasn't going in their favour. Had anyone of them suspected how things would turn out they would probably have done things differently. But they didn't, wich was what created the mess that still lingers to this day.

[Exile Isan]

I think the only place that the Council wronged the quarians was what they did when the quarians tried to settle the world of Ekuna. Threatening them with orbital bombardment, seriously? That planet wasn't even that great (only really habitable place is around the equator) and nobody would have missed it a damn bit. Would it really have killed the Council to let them have it? Garrus says in ME1 (in one of the elevator conversations with Tali) that if the quarians would not be looked down on if they would settle another world, but the Council seems to not want them to, which makes me believe that what other posters have said is true that the Council has kept the quarians down as an example to other races as if to say "This is what happens when you break our laws!" 

Addition: Apparently the quarians also tried to find Ilos to settle there as well.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:49 .

[expanding panic]

[/quote]
In retrospective, yes, the quarians overeacted and screwed up. In retrospective you can also say that the geth got too agressive and that the Council was wrong to abandon the quarians when the war wasn't going in their favour. Had anyone of them suspected how things would turn out they would probably have done things differently. But they didn't, wich was what created the mess that still lingers to this day.

[/quote]

I don't think the Geth showed any aggression towards the Quarians until the Quarians tried to shut the Geth down. Before that the Geth just asked what their purpose was and if they were alive. When the Quarians tried to shut them down (kill the Geth) is when the Geth reacted with war but the Quarians started it. 

The Council had no reason to get involved it was not a galactic threat it was a threat to the Quarians. They dug their own grave and they get what they got. I wouldn't say the Council did anything wrong (from what I believe the council job is. Which to me is to look over the galaxy and do what is best for the galaxy not one race.) And that is what the council did. The problem was not a galactic threat therefore the council had no reason to get involved. 

With that said was it a morally correct? Probably not because the Geth are robots and not living such as the quarians. But the Geth have their own way of life and goverenement. So you have to make that decesion for yourself.

[Swanea]

If the citadel, quarians and everyone else thought of Geth as a real race and not just "some crazy AI that needs to be destroyed", the geth could become a member. This would at least allow for peace, and maybe a chance for the Quarians to return home.

But people are so afraid of AI before they know anything about it. They react no different then any other sentient would. To Survive. Just like Shepard is doing against the Reapers. The Reapers are "the masters" of organic life and come to flush the galaxy of it. Like the Geth fighting back against the Quarians, we are fighting back against the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

People's suspicion of the Geth might have something to do with a 99.9% genocide and the subsequent absolute annihilation of all diplomatic missions to contact them and learn about them afterwords.



Just saying.

[kregano]

expanding panic wrote...
Refresh my memory,
I don't think the geth attacked anyone. from what I remember one of the geth asked "what their purpose was" and that scared the Quarians and then the Quarians went to shut down the Geth. I believe Legion said that. Now I don't trust Legion but assuming he is correct why not just talk to them feel them out then go from there. Why jump straight to killing?

Because the Council would intervene once the word got out and probably send in the Turians. And the Turians would've wiped out the Geth, destroyed the Quarian's infrastrcture, and turned them into vassals. And that's the best case scenario, assuming the Council didn't decide to add on extra penalities to make the Quarians a giant example of what would happen if you defied the Council.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

1) They were fighting a war where one side wanted total genocide and they other just wanted to live. We killed a heck of alot of Germans during WW2 both soilders and civilans alike, sure I'd prefer a world where so many didn't have to die for the war to end but that's the reality of war.
2) If by deplomacy you mean ships that go into their space to try and salvage resources?
3)The ship whoose people were turned to husks was clearly the work of the Heritics since Husks are Reaper tech and the Core Geth don't use them.
4) Diplomacy is hard when you've had warships sitting outside of your space with their guns ready to fire on any Geth that steps foot outside.

The Quarians wanted to completely destroy the Geth, the Geth clearly don't want to hurt the Quarians they are simply forced to defend themselves.
EDIT: I wonder if you have the same natural distrust of the Salarians, Turians, and Asari for killing 99.9% of the Krogan?

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

1) They were fighting a war where one side wanted total genocide and they other just wanted to live. We killed a heck of alot of Germans during WW2 both soilders and civilans alike, sure I'd prefer a world where so many didn't have to die for the war to end but that's the reality of war.

We came nowhere near a thirty percent genocide, let alone a fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, or ninety percent genocide.

You don't get those ranges in a still-active war. Quarian resistance and ability to wage war crumpled long before the Geth stopped killing Quarians.

2) If by deplomacy you mean ships that go into their space to try and salvage resources?

No, I'm referring to the Council emissionaries who were mentioned to have been sent.

4) Diplomacy is hard when you've had warships sitting outside of your space with their guns ready to fire on any Geth that steps foot outside.

Actually, it's quite easy.

First off, you send a small team, broadcasting peaceful intent, away from your fleets.

Secondly, the natives need to not kill off the small team sent to talk.

Third, assuming qualifications one and two are met, you start talking.


It takes two to talk, and while the Quarians might not have, the Council did try. And they lost lives for it.

The Quarians wanted to completely destroy the Geth, the Geth clearly don't want to hurt the Quarians they are simply forced to defend themselves.

The Geth went far, far beyond self defense.

Self-defense ends when the other person stops being a threat. The Quarians stopped being a threat, and then were slaughtered some more.

EDIT: I wonder if you have the same natural distrust of the Salarians, Turians, and Asari for killing 99.9% of the Krogan?

I distrust them in the sense I don't absolutely trust them to play nice. I distrust them in the sense that I expect they don't absolutely trust me. I distrust them in that I want preparations and defenses in case we come to terms.

On the other hand, at least I can talk and negotiate with them without my head being shot off.

[General User]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
4) Diplomacy is hard when you've had warships sitting outside of your space with their guns ready to fire on any Geth that steps foot outside.

Commodore Perry says 'hi'.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Dean how do you know things like this? "The Geth went far, far beyond self defense.



Self-defense ends when the other person stops being a threat. The Quarians stopped being a threat, and then were slaughtered some more.



You have no idea how the war was fought none of us do, The war could have escalated to point of both sides using weapons of mass destruction wiping out huge percentages on both sides or even more likely a far bigger part of the qaurian population got away initially and the 17 mio quarians alive now is the result of 300 years careful adjustment of the birth rate to mirror the size of the fleet.



Hell for all we know there could still be Quarians living in Geth space - nobody knows.



All we know is how the war started and the state of the migrant fleet now..that is all.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Geth were young. They had just woke up probably no more than a few months before they were attacked and you want them to have some kind of pre-set range as to when to stop fighting? They didn't even know why they were being attacked and they just wanted to make sure they would survive.

Also you forget that the Quarians have a long history of trying to re-program the Geth. Just because they stopped being a military threat doesn't mean the threat is gone. I bet there were still Qurians trying to reprogram the Geth even towards the end. If you had someone trying to brainwash you and your people you'd probably continue to attack them until they were dead. The Geth just used the Turian war doctrine "Crush your enemy until they can never be a threat again."



Clearly you can talk to them without getting your head shot off. Legion.



I noticed you didn't mention my point about the people being killed was caused by the Heritics, which when you look at the evidence points directly to them and them alone being the guilty party.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Dean how do you know things like this? "The Geth went far, far beyond self defense.

Self-defense ends when the other person stops being a threat. The Quarians stopped being a threat, and then were slaughtered some more.

This is a matter of logistics, warfare, and common sense.

Organic socieities are not capable of 'total war.' Even the most militant have large categories of non-combants: the elderly, the young, the infirm, at a minimum. Then there is the matter of destroying war-potential infrastructure.

You can not kill billions of people on accident.

You have no idea how the war was fought none of us do, The war could have escalated to point of both sides using weapons of mass destruction wiping out huge percentages on both sides or even more likely a far bigger part of the qaurian population got away initially and the 17 mio quarians alive now is the result of 300 years careful adjustment of the birth rate to mirror the size of the fleet.

I know quite a bit. I know what sort of weapons they had available (the sort less capable than those we see and hear about in ME1). I know that the Quarian population would have been in the billions by comparisons to others space-faring species, across many star systems. I'm familiar with consequences of warfare, and the extents you have to go to create that sort of percentage loss in a population.

We can look at quite a lot of things and infer things that did happen. We are not idiots.

Hell for all we know there could still be Quarians living in Geth space - nobody knows.

...I'm going to assume you didn't seriously propose that the Geth have secretly gone against all established lore and history and prior-mentionings in both Tali and Legion conversations, and that this socieity has merely voluntarily been hidden.

Because that would be really, really, really stupid.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:46 .