734 réponses à ce sujet

[Jestina]

Maybe one day the EA/Bioware group will come out of their cave and realize there are female gamers...and that sexist portrayals should be a thing of the past.

[Ryzaki]

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Honestly I really don't see what the problem is. If people want ass-shots every second, they can have her wear these clothes. If they don't, they can have her wear something different. The lack of actual issues seems to be getting everyone to make all these non-issues the crises of the week.

Saibh wrote...

I'm just afraid that she's going to run around and her buttflap thing is going to go flying out and I get to see Isabela's ass all day. 

i'm okay with this 

The bolded we have no proof of.

Until it is I can see it as a valid concern.

[Nadiasama]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nadiasama wrote...

Actually, no they don't.  Not for the women anyway.  In reality the armors for the women would look no different than on the men just made smaller to fit the wearer.  Especially the heavy armors with the boobs molded into the chest plate.  Thats just silly.

I remember one of the last threads that came up, and a woman fencer posted in the thread a picture of a chest piece with - gasp - boobs molded in.  The implication was that wearing a hard object on one's chest that didn't at least attempt to conform to the changes in shape would very likely be uncomfortable.  But hey, that's not really something I know much about since I don't have boobs.  

Overall I concede the point that, most of the time, womens and mens armor is likely very close except in terms of size.  But then I think Mass Effect 1 was a pretty good compromise.  

She's incredibally misinformed. The breasts don't need to be flattened to fit in the plate as Ryzaki said the armor would be molded to fit the wearer that includes room for the breasts. But like you said, that was her summation which just seems like a weak excuse for not doing her research.  Hadn't she heard of binding?

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I hired a blacksmith in Origins... Wade.

Yup. Which is the one armor that makes sense to have boobslots. But it makes no sense that it's shared among your companions. You'd have to get armor specially made for whoever you wanted it for and someone else using it should make the armor less effective ridculously so if they're not the same species.

The other armor though? Considering you pick it up corpses it is already stetching believability. (So...she drops her robes and although I just ran her through the clothes are in perfect condition and even though she's human and I'm an elf her clothes fit me perfectly. Okay then.)

And Sten can wear the Legion of the Dead's armor set. Makes about as much sense.

But really. It a world like DA, where women are quiet often fighters and combatants, armor suited for women would most certainly exist. And luckily, all women have the exact same body types, so one size fits all.

[Ryzaki]

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I would LOVE that, more stuff like waiting for Wade to forge DrakeScale.

On another note a lot of gear is scavenged & not built

Exactly and then you'd end up having to buy armor for each companion, wait til that armor is crafted and if you tried to use it on someone else it'd be less effective and might not be able to be equipped (armor made for Sten would be worthless for Zevran and Oghren for example.).

[ShrinkingFish]

Jestina wrote...

Maybe one day the EA/Bioware group will come out of their cave and realize there are female gamers...and that sexist portrayals should be a thing of the past.

I actually think this statement is more sexist than anything Bioware has done. Just saying.

[Ryzaki]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I hired a blacksmith in Origins... Wade.

Yup. Which is the one armor that makes sense to have boobslots. But it makes no sense that it's shared among your companions. You'd have to get armor specially made for whoever you wanted it for and someone else using it should make the armor less effective ridculously so if they're not the same species.

The other armor though? Considering you pick it up corpses it is already stetching believability. (So...she drops her robes and although I just ran her through the clothes are in perfect condition and even though she's human and I'm an elf her clothes fit me perfectly. Okay then.)

And Sten can wear the Legion of the Dead's armor set. Makes about as much sense.

But really. It a world like DA, where women are quiet often fighters and combatants, armor suited for women would most certainly exist. And luckily, all women have the exact same body types, so one size fits all.

Never said it made sense. My whole argument was that it doesn't.

...And no women aren't often fighters and combatants. Did you play as a FemWarden? While women *do* fight female fighters are not overly common. (Otherwise why is everyone shocked that you're trained as a warrior and happen to be a warden?).

Also: Women shouldn't be able to equip male armor then and vice versa if we're going to stick to strictly realistic.

All women don't have the same body types either. Morrigan has a quite distinctive body last I could see.

[Nadiasama]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Nadiasama wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

Actually, no they don't.  Not for the women anyway.  In reality the armors for the women would look no different than on the men just made smaller to fit the wearer.  Especially the heavy armors with the boobs molded into the chest plate.  Thats just silly.

Actually... that is just practical.

And historically. Women didn't do any fighting anyways, so we don't have that many historical precedents to go off of.

However, all actual armor intended for females that I have seen have had accomodations for their breasts, as otherwise a female fighter would be inconvenienced and encumbered and therefore less able to fight.

Uh no. No its not. Armor is desighned to deflect blows.  Boob buldges wouldn't deflect anything. it would trap a strike to the chest instead of it sliding off in another direction. You know, away from your heart.

This is the longest I've been in a conversation on any forum.  My God...WHAT HAVE I BECOME!?

[Jestina]

What i'd like to actually see in a game one day is having to get the materials or pay someone to do it...and then hire a smith to make the suit for you. Instead of the tired old, you can pick up any discarded armour laying around and just wear it.

[falconlord5]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, I agree with the majority of your points but fighting effectively in heavy armor takes - from what I understand - a great deal of skill. Not so much finesse, but skill.

If you take a treck through history and track armies and the gear that they used, even looking into gladiators or fighters of any age or capacity. None of them wear big, heavy armor that gives the maximum protection.

The only people who ever wore armor that heavy with that much protection were nobles who did not fight. They wore it simply for protection as it's use highly limits killing power, exhausts the wearer and renders them helpless very quickly.

The most common use of heavy armors were in sports, not battles or any real fights, where the protection of the competing nobles was paramount to their ability to damage their opponent.

Spartans. The French Knights (especially later in the medieval period). The rest of the Greek City-States.

Many nations and cultures wore plate armour, and where highly skilled heavy infantrymen and calvary.

Admittedly, geniune plate and video game armour have nothing to do with each other.

As to Spartans. They carries heavy shields and armor into battle where they fought as units. Not individuals.

In addition, they did not wear plate armor, they actually wore an armor composed, not of metal, but of various other materials to maximize it's light weight, freedom of movement, and protection. They, nor did any other Greek nation, march into battle in heavy plate armor.

However, they did all carry heavy shields. But again, these only benefitted them due to the Greek phalanx, which cannot be executed outside of a well trained unit.

When fighting one on one, Greek warriors most often fought completely naked.

And the French Military has always been more showy than practical anyways. Also note that French Knights were most often nobility and thus did not actually participate in combat. Instances when they did were rare to say the least.

Okay, a little military history 101. First, most Greeks fought with either bronze plate or what's called the linothorax, a heavy cotton weave, based on what they could afford. This is true going back at least to the Mycenean's (1600-1200 BCE) and certainly true of the classical City-States. No Greek ever fought naked outside of the gymnasium, and thought that the few Celts who did so, were bat-**** crazy.

Second, aside from a few bumps in history (the invention of gunpowder, the phalanx, etc.) it was the nobles who fought, while the peasants either a) farmed, or got slaughtered by the nobles looking for booty. On occasion, they also served as mass infantry to back up the nobles.

Third, from the Middle Ages until the Franco-Prussian War in 11870, the French military was the best in the world from their legendary knights to the Musketeers to the fierce fighting infantry that nearly took over the whole damn world under Napoleon. It was only after the Second World War, under propagandist and revisionist history, that the French began to lose their reputation as The Fighting Nation of Europe.

Well. As this is all stuff I already knew, I guess the main point were we're dissagreeing is I thought you were defending the heavy armor styles in Dragon Age Origins as being realistic. Of course heavy armor has been used in actual warfare, but these soldiers always fought in large units instead of individuals.

Also, your second point is largely incorrect. I'm not sure where you get your information, but there you go. The vast majority of combatants throughout military history were commoners. Even in areas like Japan, where only nobles fought for a rather impressive portion of history. Before and after this time period, however, peasants did more of the fighting than any nobles. Certainly nobles lead all the armies... but they did not largely engage in combat.

And, don't get me wrong, I know the power of the historical French Military. However. I am British. And I have to insult them whenever they get brought up. It is an unavoidable cultural obligation.

Ah. Okay, that I can understand.

[Nadiasama]

Fah! Double post.

Modifié par Nadiasama, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:17 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I hired a blacksmith in Origins... Wade.

Yup. Which is the one armor that makes sense to have boobslots. But it makes no sense that it's shared among your companions. You'd have to get armor specially made for whoever you wanted it for and someone else using it should make the armor less effective ridculously so if they're not the same species.

The other armor though? Considering you pick it up corpses it is already stetching believability. (So...she drops her robes and although I just ran her through the clothes are in perfect condition and even though she's human and I'm an elf her clothes fit me perfectly. Okay then.)

And Sten can wear the Legion of the Dead's armor set. Makes about as much sense.

But really. It a world like DA, where women are quiet often fighters and combatants, armor suited for women would most certainly exist. And luckily, all women have the exact same body types, so one size fits all.

Never said it made sense. My whole argument was that it doesn't.

...And no women aren't often fighters and combatants. Did you play as a FemWarden? While women *do* fight female fighters are not overly common. (Otherwise why is everyone shocked that you're trained as a warrior and happen to be a warden?).

Also: Women shouldn't be able to equip male armor then and vice versa if we're going to stick to strictly realistic.

All women don't have the same body types either. Morrigan has a quite distinctive body last I could see.

Sorry, I should have said, "more often than in real life". In Dragon Age women are a rare addition to the military but they are still an accepted addition to the military. Meanwhile, female combatants are essentially none existant when set aside the ratio of male combatants in reality.

And I don't advise sticking to realism so that in inconveniences the game mechanics and never advocated such.

And Morrigan only had that bodytype when she wore her own robes. Naked and in other robes she looked exactly like Wynne and Leliana.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:18 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Jestina wrote...

What i'd like to actually see in a game one day is having to get the materials or pay someone to do it...and then hire a smith to make the suit for you. Instead of the tired old, you can pick up any discarded armour laying around and just wear it.

I would hate that.

Everquest did that crap back in the old days and it was terrible.

Wheneve you found a piece of armor you likely had to have it refitted so you could wear it. Major pain in the ass.

[Ryzaki]

...So women soldiers aren't accepted now? O_o



Really?



Sure they're not a lot of them but they certainly are allowed if they pass the requirements.



True but everyone has the same body in DA (by race and gender of course) if we're going to use nudity as a measuring stick.

[RevengeofNewton]

Ryzaki wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Honestly I really don't see what the problem is. If people want ass-shots every second, they can have her wear these clothes. If they don't, they can have her wear something different. The lack of actual issues seems to be getting everyone to make all these non-issues the crises of the week.

Saibh wrote...

I'm just afraid that she's going to run around and her buttflap thing is going to go flying out and I get to see Isabela's ass all day. 

i'm okay with this 

The bolded we have no proof of.

Until it is I can see it as a valid concern.

There's absolutely no reason to think that there wouldn't be different outfits.

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Maybe one day the EA/Bioware group will come out of their cave and realize there are female gamers...and that sexist portrayals should be a thing of the past.

I actually think this statement is more sexist than anything Bioware has done. Just saying.

While I think Jestina is mistaken/misinformed, I don't think there is any sexism behind the post.

[ShrinkingFish]

Nadiasama wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Nadiasama wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

Actually, no they don't.  Not for the women anyway.  In reality the armors for the women would look no different than on the men just made smaller to fit the wearer.  Especially the heavy armors with the boobs molded into the chest plate.  Thats just silly.

Actually... that is just practical.

And historically. Women didn't do any fighting anyways, so we don't have that many historical precedents to go off of.

However, all actual armor intended for females that I have seen have had accomodations for their breasts, as otherwise a female fighter would be inconvenienced and encumbered and therefore less able to fight.

Uh no. No its not. Armor is desighned to deflect blows.  Boob buldges wouldn't deflect anything. it would trap a strike to the chest instead of it sliding off in another direction. You know, away from your heart.

This is the longest I've been in a conversation on any forum.  My God...WHAT HAVE I BECOME!?

You kidding me? Boob bulges would deflect much more than a flat chest as the varied angles make it more unlikely for an enemy to land a solid blow. Deflection largely serves to soften blows as well as aim the away from the body. Taking away a substancial amount of the force put behind a blow.

Of course, this makes a bit more sense if the wearer wasn't moving and just sitting there waiting for the blow to fall. But then, even a man without accomodations for breasts built into his armor would die in that situation.

[upsettingshorts]

RevengeofNewton wrote...
There's absolutely no reason to think that there wouldn't be different outfits.

The fact they haven't said anything combined with comments by the DA team that they liked how Mass Effect 2 handled static, customized outfits is reason enough to raise it as a possibility.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

...So women soldiers aren't accepted now? O_o

Really?

Sure they're not a lot of them but they certainly are allowed if they pass the requirements.

True but everyone has the same body in DA (by race and gender of course) if we're going to use nudity as a measuring stick.

Are they allowed to fight on the front line?

Is there or is there not a large political conflict on whether or not to allow women to fight on the front lines? Serve in the military, sure. But serve in combat?

And you're taking the same body type thing a bit too seriously. I was making a joke.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:26 .

[ShrinkingFish]

RevengeofNewton wrote...

While I think Jestina is mistaken/misinformed, I don't think there is any sexism behind the post.

You don't have to be intentionally sexist in order to be sexist. The vast majority of sexism is without intent.

But I agree. I do not believe it was said with any intention to be sexist.

[RevengeofNewton]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...
There's absolutely no reason to think that there wouldn't be different outfits.

The fact they haven't said anything combined with comments by the DA team that they liked how Mass Effect 2 handled static, customized outfits is reason enough to raise it as a possibility.

Parsimony would suggest that since nothing is mentioned, the logical opinion to hold until otherwise shown is that it'll be the same as in DA: O.

ShrinkingFish wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...

While I think Jestina is mistaken/misinformed, I don't think there is any sexism behind the post.

You don't have to be intentionally sexist in order to be sexist. The vast majority of sexism is without intent.

But I agree. I do not believe it was said with any intention to be sexist.

I'm not talking about intention, I'm actually going one step further and saying that there wasn't any sexism in that post at all. It is simply a misguided statement. You'll understand why I'm saying that if you look at the definition of sexism carefully.

Modifié par RevengeofNewton, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:27 .

[tmp7704]

edit: nvm, 'ed while writing ;s

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:27 .

[ShrinkingFish]

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...
There's absolutely no reason to think that there wouldn't be different outfits.

The fact they haven't said anything combined with comments by the DA team that they liked how Mass Effect 2 handled static, customized outfits is reason enough to raise it as a possibility.

Parsimony would suggest that since nothing is mentioned, the logical opinion to hold until otherwise shown is that it'll be the same as in DA: O.

If one ignores other influences, sure. But logic has very little to do with assumption in either case.

[Jestina]

If you don't think they amped up the sexism in their games...look at the change from ME to ME2. Otherwise you're just playing oblivious.



And there were historical female knights. Their armour was in the same fashion as males. They didn't run around in bikini's and heels. Two greats everyone probably knows about are...Boudica and Jeanne d'Arc. Saying there are no female soldiers is just a blatant chauvinistic attitude...lots of them are serving in the military now and there were some in the past.

[Valente11]

i vote YES for chainmail bikinis. No sense if ruining the ride for all of us.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...
There's absolutely no reason to think that there wouldn't be different outfits.

The fact they haven't said anything combined with comments by the DA team that they liked how Mass Effect 2 handled static, customized outfits is reason enough to raise it as a possibility.

I sure hope they have different outfits.