734 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

filaminstrel wrote...

Or maybe there's a big wet dog at the center of Thedas and its pungent emissions collect in a hotspot underneath Lake Calenhad.

Stop making me laugh. Half the room turns to me like I'm crazy.

[NKKKK]

I loled

[mousestalker]

filaminstrel wrote...

Or maybe there's a big wet dog at the center of Thedas and its pungent emissions collect in a hotspot underneath Lake Calenhad.

That would explain why you're not allowed to swim in Lake Calenhad.

[NKKKK]

You would have thought Anders would have known

[Aermas]

Well Alister was raised by dogs & the Mabari are a symbol of national pride, & everyone keeps saying the nation smells like them so they definitely have dogs. Maybe the smell is Alister?

[Dave of Canada]

Aermas wrote...

Well Alister was raised by dogs

Not only dogs, flying devout dogs.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 octobre 2010 - 04:03 .

[Aermas]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Well Alister was raised by dogs

Not only dogs, flying devout dogs.

That was going to be in my next post.

[Leonia]

You know, he probably would have had a much better childhood if that were true..

[soteria]

You talked about the "popular" image of a pirate. Jack is the quintessential pirate & he is dirty & not at all hygienic. So therefore if you use the excuse that isabela wears no pants & a gold neck-brace because she is a pirate you have to go with the idea that she doesn't bathe often (if at all) & is most likely covered in lice &/or ticks

Actually, I don't. First, you're the one who is appealing to Jack Sparrow, not me. Second, you're assuming the "popular image" of the male pirate is identical to that of the female, ie, that men are sexually attracted to the same images that women are. I can't agree with that assumption. Third, you're trying to infuse the popular image of the pirate with something that just isn't there--disease, ticks, lice etc. I have serious doubts that the people who like pirates (ninja ftw) imagine them with that degree of realism.

Maria Caliban wrote...

And what does that difference mean? Is there a large number of realistic, historically accurate fantasy RPGs for us to compare the unrealistic, historically inaccurate fantasy RPGs to in regards to sales and critical acceptance?

Yes, a large number of people on this forum might say that they'd never play such a game, but people on this forum also say they're not interested in Halo or romance novels.

Good question. Mount and Blade comes immediately to mind, assuming you would call that an RPG. I think in general, though, by definition such games would be excluded from comparison. Either they wouldn't be RPGs or they wouldn't be fantasy. I suspect that such games are much more "niche" than what Bioware aims for. My point was, though, that people cherish certain images and ideas even when they intellectually know they're probably not accurate. That's especially true in fantasy settings, which are known for being escapist.

As for that second claim, I don't know. I think there's probably a number of unashamed Halo and Twilight fans here, but talking about those interests is off topic, yes? That said, one could certainly compare Halo to, say, Modern Warfare. The former tries to be a fun and competitive shooter in a sci fi setting, largely ignoring realism. The latter tries to be fun and realistic, except where the two values compete. Weapons never jam, for example, reloading is extremely simplified, and the player heals extremely quickly. Fun trumped realism, even in a game that sells itself on being realistic.

[Aermas]

soteria wrote...

If she was to be realistic her hair would be short, and that cloth wouldn't be conveniently covering her ass. (sometimes) that jewerly wouldn't be there and she wouldn't be wearing that head...thing. (isn't sure what to call it).

Err... she's a pirate? Last I checked, the popular image of a pirate involves a lot of jewelry and a bandana on the head (or a hat). It keeps the hair from getting blown around in the wind as much. Heck, do a google image search for pirate (male or female) and I bet you'll find plenty of bejeweled pirates in impractical clothing.

You brought up the "popular" version of a pirate. As for as the male Jack Sparrow, I will give you then the example of Elisabeth Swan in the third movie. & I am sooo sorry for bringing up realism in a realistic game, a game may have abstractions like hp & mp but gravity still goes down & ticks & lice still exist IN THE GAME WORLD or you wouldn't feel half as bad for the Alienage elves because that sewage won't give them the plague it would be too real!

[Aermas]

DP

[soteria]

You brought up the "popular" version of a pirate. As for as the male Jack Sparrow, I will give you then the example of Elisabeth Swan in the third movie. & I am sooo sorry for bringing up realism in a realistic game, a game may have abstractions like hp & mp but gravity still goes down & ticks & lice still exist IN THE GAME WORLD or you wouldn't feel half as bad for the Alienage elves because that sewage won't give them the plague it would be too real!

Sorry, I only watched the first one, so I can't comment on the third. Regardless, Pirates of the Caribbean used an established set of lore and imagery for its pirates. My point is that Bioware probably just used the popular image of a pirate when they looked for inspiration for Isabela. And no, I don't think that includes being disease-ridden and covered with parasites.

As for the rest of this paragraph, I'm not following. Are you saying "ticks and lice exist IN THE GAME WORLD" in the sense that the player actually sees them, or that we are told they exist? I know I don't remember ever having to deal with them. Or eating, drinking, sleeping, jumping, swimming, hygiene... this is where we get back to my original point. You're cherry-picking your realism. You argue for realism in the one case (clothes, here), but my guess is you really don't care about it in a lot of others.

[upsettingshorts]

I find it kind of funny that this conversation is still going on around Halloween.



You can't go to an adult costume party without seeing a sexy pirate. Or a sexy _________.

[Aermas]

soteria wrote...

You brought up the "popular" version of a pirate. As for as the male Jack Sparrow, I will give you then the example of Elisabeth Swan in the third movie. & I am sooo sorry for bringing up realism in a realistic game, a game may have abstractions like hp & mp but gravity still goes down & ticks & lice still exist IN THE GAME WORLD or you wouldn't feel half as bad for the Alienage elves because that sewage won't give them the plague it would be too real!

Sorry, I only watched the first one, so I can't comment on the third. Regardless, Pirates of the Caribbean used an established set of lore and imagery for its pirates. My point is that Bioware probably just used the popular image of a pirate when they looked for inspiration for Isabela. And no, I don't think that includes being disease-ridden and covered with parasites.
As for the rest of this paragraph, I'm not following. Are you saying "ticks and lice exist IN THE GAME WORLD" in the sense that the player actually sees them, or that we are told they exist? I know I don't remember ever having to deal with them. Or eating, drinking, sleeping, jumping, swimming, hygiene... this is where we get back to my original point. You're cherry-picking your realism. You argue for realism in the one case (clothes, here), but my guess is you really don't care about it in a lot of others.

I love realism in my games. I have (to my knowledge) ever supporting unrealistic anything. The main idea I am presenting in my post is that regardless of what we as a player sees/hears there are things at work in the background, if you say Isabela doesn't have fleas because she is based on "popular" pirates means that pirates in DA do not get fleas. Yet there are sufferings of the common folk that our character knows exist because they exist in the real world i.e. fleas. Are you saying that because there is no proof of getting wet in DA (Your avatar never shows any sign if they are) that damp clothing doesn't exist? Alister complains of a soggy sock yet his avatar doesn't show that his sock is wet. In conclusion, Isabela is a pirate, pirates had hygiene issues, unless Bioware says she takes actions to improve her hygiene above that of the standard, we are to assume that she has the same hygiene issues.

*steps of soapbox

Modifié par Aermas, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:24 .

[soteria]

I find it kind of funny that this conversation is still going on around Halloween.

You can't go to an adult costume party without seeing a sexy pirate. Or a sexy _________.

Isabela's outfit is looking more practical and modest all the time, isn't it?

[Aermas]

soteria wrote...

I find it kind of funny that this conversation is still going on around Halloween.
You can't go to an adult costume party without seeing a sexy pirate. Or a sexy _________.

Isabela's outfit is looking more practical and modest all the time, isn't it?

Exposed rear end at all times is modest?

[Maria Caliban]

soteria wrote...
Good question. Mount and Blade comes immediately to mind, assuming you would call that an RPG. I think in general, though, by definition such games would be excluded from comparison. Either they wouldn't be RPGs or they wouldn't be fantasy. I suspect that such games are much more "niche" than what Bioware aims for. My point was, though, that people cherish certain images and ideas even when they intellectually know they're probably not accurate. That's especially true in fantasy settings, which are known for being escapist.

As for that second claim, I don't know. I think there's probably a number of unashamed Halo and Twilight fans here, but talking about those interests is off topic, yes? That said, one could certainly compare Halo to, say, Modern Warfare. The former tries to be a fun and competitive shooter in a sci fi setting, largely ignoring realism. The latter tries to be fun and realistic, except where the two values compete. Weapons never jam, for example, reloading is extremely simplified, and the player heals extremely quickly. Fun trumped realism, even in a game that sells itself on being realistic.

And let's not forget that in the real world, soldiers don't live in 24/7 shootouts, which is what Modern Warfare gives you.

My objection is that we can't say that attempts at realism would destroy the DA franchise because we have nothing to base that on but personal preference, and it's not even personal preference based on having played realistic RPGs.

When it comes to other entertainment, historically accurate novels sell well, non-fiction does better than fiction, and movies and TV shows based on real world events and locations do well.

I don't think knowing that the majority of people have lice, or even knowing that the PC has them at the beginning (Lothering was dirty and overcrowded) would ruin the play experience.

[soteria]

I love realism in my games. I have (to my knowledge) ever supporting unrealistic anything. The main idea I am presenting in my post is that regardless of what we as a player sees/hears there are things at work in the background, if you say Isabela doesn't have fleas because she is based on "popular" pirates means that pirates in DA do not get fleas. Yet there are sufferings of the common folk that our character knows exist because they exist in the real world i.e. fleas.

This is getting a little pedantic for me. I can't see or feel video-game fleas. I don't care about fleas. Why are we even talking about fleas? Assuming Isabela practices the same hygiene everyone else in the DA universe does, she shouldn't look any more or less ratty than they do.

You claim that you've never supported anything being unrealistic at all. Does that mean you really expect/prefer video games to be sims that require you to eat/drink/sleep etc, and that if a character gets injured they should be laid up for days or weeks, and that characters should become fatigued after fighting for a few minutes in combat?

Are you saying that because there is no proof of getting wet in DA (Your avatar never shows any sign if they are) that damp clothing doesn't exist? Alister complains of a soggy sock yet his avatar doesn't show that his sock is wet. In conclusion, Isabela is a pirate, pirates had hygiene issues, unless Bioware says she takes actions to improve her hygiene above that of the standard, we are to assume that she has the same hygiene issues.

/shrug? You're taking this "pirates had bad hygiene" thing and running with it, aren't you? You're free to assume whatever you like about Isabela's character. It's not something I ever really consider about a character in a video game.

[upsettingshorts]

Pirates and sailors in general only had notably worse hygiene relative to any other people on instances of long voyages. Given the lack of exploration indicated by the map of known Thedas, I highly doubt that Isabela or other pirates of her kind spend enough time at sea to develop the kinds of problems Aermas is assuming are inevitable.

Not that I'd argue it's even an issue, I'd just like to point out that it's really doubtful to me that Isabela or her ship spends any time significantly far away from the coast and thus, fresh provisions. There would be no benefit as, aside from Par Vollen and the hostile Qunari, there's nothing out there but unexplored water with no shipping to capture.

In fact, by the time of say, the Napoleonic Wars - at least when it came to the mighty British Navy, service at sea was considered much cleaner, safer, and hygienic than service in the army.  Pirates typically operated close to their bases of operation and didn't go on long voyages as carrying provisions is expensive, and they would rather be back in town selling their loot.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Aermas]

Aermas wrote...

soteria wrote...

If she was to be realistic her hair would be short, and that cloth wouldn't be conveniently covering her ass. (sometimes) that jewerly wouldn't be there and she wouldn't be wearing that head...thing. (isn't sure what to call it).

Err... she's a pirate? Last I checked, the popular image of a pirate involves a lot of jewelry and a bandana on the head (or a hat). It keeps the hair from getting blown around in the wind as much. Heck, do a google image search for pirate (male or female) and I bet you'll find plenty of bejeweled pirates in impractical clothing.

So she can have scurvy, lice, ticks, & bilge rats too? If you use the pirate excuse you should take the whole image of a pirate not just what you want.

To go back to the beginning of this debate, This is your original view point, & my original counterpoint. & yes I do like that a character can get injured & take time to heal but as I have already stated certain abstractions need to be made. HP is an abstraction MP is an abstraction, as for getting tired in a fight, THEY DO, how many actions can your character take before their stamina drops too low? Your characters get broken bones & damaged eyes, I like this. The game isn't being unrealistic. No your character can not get fleas, but in a simulated world it's not like the implications of fleas isn't there, or why should we care about the living conditions of the elves, or if someone punching your character hurts or not. Realistic Implication in a Simulated Autonomous World

[soteria]

The game isn't being unrealistic.

Yes, it is. I could go point by point explaining how broken bones aren't realistically healed in a second with an "injury kit" or how my characters can, in fact, use abilities (and auto-attack) non-stop, but that's beside the point. You simply accept certain abstractions because you're used to them and they contribute to the enjoyment of the game. Others, you don't accept because you just don't like them. Realism is secondary.

[Randomname1212]

Whats wrong with chainmail?

[Ryzaki]

Not to mention "drinking" poultices.



*sighs*

[Randomname1212]

And being able to shapeshift animals that are far larger than your own body size. You can't just gain body mass, it has to be constant.

[Dave of Canada]

About this "realism" discussion.

But you need to give way for gaming mechanics where if you had to sit AFK for weeks because you broke a leg then the game would be hated by everybody, a player can still play the game and it doesn't immediately reek "omfg this is unrealistic". However, there's realism when compared to the real world. When a woman wears nothing but a bra and panties, she shouldn't be able to shrug off a sword blow to the stomache and take less damage because said bra and panties have more defense than the full body armor.