734 réponses à ce sujet

[ShrinkingFish]

Jestina wrote...

They wouldn't be going off to battle in modified bikini's.

And neither do any of the women in DA.

I agree that chainmail bikini's are aweful. But Dragon Age isn't doing that. Not even remotely.

[falconlord5]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Ok, this is the 100th thread or so where people argue historical facts about why and how people wore armor, and use this weapon or that weapon.

Lets try a different take on this. Realism doesn't work there. What kind of armor would people have worn if you told a 13th century man and arms to walk into a hole full of undead ready to eat their soul. Now figure that kind of thing has been happening for 100's of years. They don't just fight human to human battles for land, but fighting monsters is normal.

Would armor and weapons have stayed the same, I dunno, just sayin?

Yes.

Because the benefits and drawbacks of heavy armor remain constant despite the fantastic setting.

I didn't mean to do it, but I ninja edited.

Magic does exist here, and is able to effect armor and weapons.

Ok move on now.........

Well, realism is hardly my point.

My main point, that was mostly overlooked, is that it is unreasonable and sexist for people to complain about the revealing armor that female characters wear while ignoring even more revealing armor that males wear as well as ignoring how "unreal" heavy armor is.

Honestly. I don't mind. I think the big heavy plate armor looks badass.

That last line is one I can agree with.

[Ryzaki]

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Also...Morri's outfit was fine. She wasn't hopping around and giving me nipple shots.

As for the Qs guys they're an antagonists, I didn't complain about the lady of the forest heck I thought those branches covering her nipples were irritating and unnecssary (the same with the DD nipple rings).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:49 .

[ShrinkingFish]

filaminstrel wrote...

Oh come off it. Sexist? Just because I see a slowmo panty shot in the trailer and that leads me to question the motives of the people who made that artistic decision does not mean I'm on some crusade against actual womens' rights to wear whatever they want. As far as the qunari go, it seems to me that a panty shot is a lot more sexual than a shirtless shot, which is also partly why I never complained about Morrigan.

If you want to say that kind of armor is practical or whatever, fine, I won't dispute that, I'll just leave it to you guys to argue over, but please let's not bring these ridiculous accusations of sexism into it.

I wasn't accusing you of sexism. Honeslty I did not read your post before I posted my own. But only read the OP's post and was responding to her.

All I was saying was that it is a sexist double standard for people to constantly complain about women's armor being "unpractical" while ignoring the very same issues in male combatants.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

[slimgrin]

Tranceptor wrote...

2013 is going to be awesome

Everyone fights naked. It will be glorious.

[Nadiasama]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Nadiasama wrote...

Wearing armor does not necessarily equate to heavy plate armor. There is also the more versatile leather armors such as tunics and lamellar which was usually worn over a hauberk. So yeah it won't hurt her to cover up a little more.

Who says you can't be sexy and modestly clothed?

Doing my part in keeping this thread on track.

It actually would hurt, depending on her fighting style. Perhaps maximum freedom of leg movement and flexibility is the most important aspect of her fighting style. Thus any leather armor would impede her ability to move.

And nobody says you can't be sexy and modestly clothed. But that is hardly the point. I would also argue that this thread is still on topic and never diverged its course. There was simply a short deture of real world examples to illustrate a point.

The armor wouldn't cover her legs but she would have some nice padded pants to go with them.  And the derailment comment was in response to the RPG disscission that came from nowhere.

[Ryzaki]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

So...because one game is ridculously unbelievable...one game being unbelievable but less so is pardoned? They're both unbelievable.

I wouldn't touch WoW with a twenty foot pole so I could care less about their armor.

Though my complaints would vanish if Dude Hawke has some shirtless armor. Yum. The girls in FF games are pretty objectified but for the most part they do the exact same thing to the males. So everyone's objectivied and no one's singled out. For every Fran there's a Basch. (honestly a hole right over his abs? really?) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 01:53 .

[Aermas]

Most of the light armor supporters fall back on the tired old "magic could compensate" but if you look at the armor only high powered items & mage robes have innate magical properties, also if you decide to completely ignore/refute this fact what about using magic to make plate armor light & mobile?

[Nadiasama]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

Actually, no they don't.  Not for the women anyway.  In reality the armors for the women would look no different than on the men just made smaller to fit the wearer.  Especially the heavy armors with the boobs molded into the chest plate.  Thats just silly.

[Ryzaki]

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

[ShrinkingFish]

falconlord5 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, I agree with the majority of your points but fighting effectively in heavy armor takes - from what I understand - a great deal of skill. Not so much finesse, but skill.

If you take a treck through history and track armies and the gear that they used, even looking into gladiators or fighters of any age or capacity. None of them wear big, heavy armor that gives the maximum protection.

The only people who ever wore armor that heavy with that much protection were nobles who did not fight. They wore it simply for protection as it's use highly limits killing power, exhausts the wearer and renders them helpless very quickly.

The most common use of heavy armors were in sports, not battles or any real fights, where the protection of the competing nobles was paramount to their ability to damage their opponent.

Spartans. The French Knights (especially later in the medieval period). The rest of the Greek City-States.

Many nations and cultures wore plate armour, and where highly skilled heavy infantrymen and calvary.

Admittedly, geniune plate and video game armour have nothing to do with each other.

As to Spartans. They carries heavy shields and armor into battle where they fought as units. Not individuals.

In addition, they did not wear plate armor, they actually wore an armor composed, not of metal, but of various other materials to maximize it's light weight, freedom of movement, and protection. They, nor did any other Greek nation, march into battle in heavy plate armor.

However, they did all carry heavy shields. But again, these only benefitted them due to the Greek phalanx, which cannot be executed outside of a well trained unit.

When fighting one on one, Greek warriors most often fought completely naked.

And the French Military has always been more showy than practical anyways. Also note that French Knights were most often nobility and thus did not actually participate in combat. Instances when they did were rare to say the least.

Okay, a little military history 101. First, most Greeks fought with either bronze plate or what's called the linothorax, a heavy cotton weave, based on what they could afford. This is true going back at least to the Mycenean's (1600-1200 BCE) and certainly true of the classical City-States. No Greek ever fought naked outside of the gymnasium, and thought that the few Celts who did so, were bat-**** crazy.

Second, aside from a few bumps in history (the invention of gunpowder, the phalanx, etc.) it was the nobles who fought, while the peasants either a) farmed, or got slaughtered by the nobles looking for booty. On occasion, they also served as mass infantry to back up the nobles.

Third, from the Middle Ages until the Franco-Prussian War in 11870, the French military was the best in the world from their legendary knights to the Musketeers to the fierce fighting infantry that nearly took over the whole damn world under Napoleon. It was only after the Second World War, under propagandist and revisionist history, that the French began to lose their reputation as The Fighting Nation of Europe.

Well. As this is all stuff I already knew, I guess the main point were we're dissagreeing is I thought you were defending the heavy armor styles in Dragon Age Origins as being realistic. Of course heavy armor has been used in actual warfare, but these soldiers always fought in large units instead of individuals.

Also, your second point is largely incorrect. I'm not sure where you get your information, but there you go. The vast majority of combatants throughout military history were commoners. Even in areas like Japan, where only nobles fought for a rather impressive portion of history. Before and after this time period, however, peasants did more of the fighting than any nobles. Certainly nobles lead all the armies... but they did not largely engage in combat.

And, don't get me wrong, I know the power of the historical French Military. However. I am British. And I have to insult them whenever they get brought up. It is an unavoidable cultural obligation.

[upsettingshorts]

Nadiasama wrote...

Actually, no they don't.  Not for the women anyway.  In reality the armors for the women would look no different than on the men just made smaller to fit the wearer.  Especially the heavy armors with the boobs molded into the chest plate.  Thats just silly.

I remember one of the last threads that came up, and a woman fencer posted in the thread a picture of a chest piece with - gasp - boobs molded in.  The implication was that wearing a hard object on one's chest that didn't at least attempt to conform to the changes in shape would very likely be uncomfortable.  But hey, that's not really something I know much about since I don't have boobs.  

Overall I concede the point that, most of the time, womens and mens armor is likely very close except in terms of size.  But then I think Mass Effect 1 was a pretty good compromise.  

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

So...because one game is ridculously unbelievable...one game being unbelievable but less so is pardoned? They're both unbelievable.

I wouldn't touch WoW with a twenty foot pole so I could care less about their armor.

Though my complaints would vanish if Dude Hawke has some shirtless armor. Yum. The girls in FF games are pretty objectified but for the most part they do the exact same thing to the males. So everyone's objectivied and no one's singled out. For every Fran there's a Basch. (honestly a hole right over his abs? really?) 

I don't take issue with Dragon Age armor being unbelievable, at least in terms of the "Chainmail Bikini" trope, unbelievable in other ways certainly. And all issues with it are minor issues anyways. But then, I'm not one of those players who immediately centers in on anything sexual in a game. So maybe I just don't notice it as accutely as others.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Aermas]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

[ShrinkingFish]

filaminstrel wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Oh come off it. Sexist? Just because I see a slowmo panty shot in the trailer and that leads me to question the motives of the people who made that artistic decision does not mean I'm on some crusade against actual womens' rights to wear whatever they want. As far as the qunari go, it seems to me that a panty shot is a lot more sexual than a shirtless shot, which is also partly why I never complained about Morrigan.

If you want to say that kind of armor is practical or whatever, fine, I won't dispute that, I'll just leave it to you guys to argue over, but please let's not bring these ridiculous accusations of sexism into it.

I wasn't accusing you of sexism. Honeslty I did not read your post before I posted my own. But only read the OP's post and was responding to her.

All I was saying was that it is a sexist double standard for people to constantly complain about women's armor being "unpractical" while ignoring the very same issues in male combatants.

Oh, well okay. I didn't post much in this thread, but in another thread I did say "I can't help but feel that it was a calculated marketing ploy aimed at teenage boys," so hopefully you can understand why I might have taken it as directed toward me, even if you didn't specifically quote me by name.

Maybe it's a bit of a double standard, but I still don't really consider shirtlessness a proper analogue. If it is, again, I'd be complaining about Morrigan, but I'm not. (okay, she's not shirtless, but neither is Isabela pantiless)

And complaining is probably too strong a word to describe what I'd be doing regardless, as it was originally just an offhand, kind of eyerolling comment on the matter. I was never up-in-arms about this egregious affront to human dignity or anything like that.

Fair enough. I can understand that.

[Ryzaki]

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I hired a blacksmith in Origins... Wade.

[Ryzaki]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I don't take issue with Dragon Age armor being unbelievable, at least in terms of the "Chainmail Bikini" trope, unbelievable in other ways certainly. And all issues with it are minor issues anyways. But then, I'm not one of those players who immediately centers in on anything sexual in a game. So maybe I just don't notice it as accutely as others.

Meh. I wouldn't have cared if ME2's "no armor" fiasco hadn't happened. That plust the fact that the DA devs thought it was a good idea makes me agitated. I'm don't want to miss out on companions because their clothes serve to kill my immersion.

[Ryzaki]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I hired a blacksmith in Origins... Wade.

Yup. Which is the one armor that makes sense to have boobslots. But it makes no sense that it's shared among your companions. You'd have to get armor specially made for whoever you wanted it for and someone else using it should make the armor less effective ridculously so if they're not the same species.

The other armor though? Considering you pick it up corpses it is already stetching believability. (So...she drops her robes and although I just ran her through the clothes are in perfect condition and even though she's human and I'm an elf her clothes fit me perfectly. Okay then.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:09 .

[RevengeofNewton]

Honestly I really don't see what the problem is. If people want ass-shots every second, they can have her wear these clothes. If they don't, they can have her wear something different. The lack of actual issues seems to be getting everyone to make all these non-issues the crises of the week.

Saibh wrote...

I'm just afraid that she's going to run around and her buttflap thing is going to go flying out and I get to see Isabela's ass all day. 

i'm okay with this 

[ShrinkingFish]

Nadiasama wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sexist?

No. I would be just as irritated if Dude Hawke gave me an ass shot as I am with Isabela.

It's simply unnecessary fanservice 99% of the time.

Perhaps. But I do not believe that Dragon Age crosses any major lines. Their armor and clothing still exists within a feasible realm of believability. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that make sexy, impractical armor just for the sake of sex appeal.

Like women's armor in World of Warcraft. Compared to WoW, DA is incredibly conservative.

Actually, no they don't.  Not for the women anyway.  In reality the armors for the women would look no different than on the men just made smaller to fit the wearer.  Especially the heavy armors with the boobs molded into the chest plate.  Thats just silly.

Actually... that is just practical.

And historically. Women didn't do any fighting anyways, so we don't have that many historical precedents to go off of.

However, all actual armor intended for females that I have seen have had accomodations for their breasts, as otherwise a female fighter would be inconvenienced and encumbered and therefore less able to fight.

[Aermas]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus the only people who could afford that (molded to fit the wearer armor) would be super rich. Which none of the Wardens are canonically speaking.

That's why I have 200+Gold in my pocket during game play.

I talking about none gameplay wise.

If people had to craft their own armor or hire a blacksmith there would be no end to the QQ'ing.

I would LOVE that, more stuff like waiting for Wade to forge DrakeScale.

On another note a lot of gear is scavenged & not built