221 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

CruserBoii wrote...

Finishing moves can do amazing stuff.

Sure, but that's the part of the problem. Developers seem to try increase "cool" factor by creating amazing and little exaggerated animations and special effects. How ever, when there is too much of them, it starts to feel like it's not so natural anymore. Little like there is something wrong in the worlds gravity.

[vocalemuse]

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Erm, I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. :/

I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today. 

Modifié par vocalemuse, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:46 .

[ShrinkingFish]

vocalemuse wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Erm, but I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today. 

How fit were the two men? and how accustomed were they to weilding their blades? Just asking. Because that plays a big role.

[ShrinkingFish]

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

My thoughts on it was that it was just unfinished, at least in the quest lines and such at higher levels. Too gappy. Otherwise I loved it. Way better MMO than anything else I've played.

More like another case of a Vanguard or Warhammer release, except AoC being worse than WAR.

Okay. THAT I definitely disagree with. But I guess it is just a matter of opinion.

Lmao, you were obviously not there for AoC's launch then. xD

Anyway... no more thread derailment! *flees*

I actually purchased it on the release day =/

Granted, it was that  afternoon... and I didn't play until the next day... but still. I was there.

[vocalemuse]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Erm, but I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today. 

How fit were the two men? and how accustomed were they to weilding their blades? Just asking. Because that plays a big role.

They knew what they were doing, but they weren't 'omg ripped' or skinny beanpoles. Normal average weight men.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I feel like Rule of Cool applies here to the physics effects. And if we're going to complain about cool animations being a little unrealistic--hey, guys, guess what? MAGIC exists in the DA universe. How realistic is that?

[ShrinkingFish]

slimgrin wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Faster than a rapier? A Viking battle axe? A samurai sword?

Seems hard to believe.

No one made that claim...

[upsettingshorts]

With a big ungainly weapon the problem is their momentum and controlling them, not speed. The issue I had with the animations in DA:O, at least the one that bugged me the most, was the overhand attack with the 2H sword.

I've seen guys at the World Strongest Man competition lift 200lb barrels over their heads faster than my Warden was able to ready his sword for a downward blow. That was the worst part. Everything else was just a tad slow. And in Conan, my example for something I prefer, doesn't strike me as fast as DA:2, and only a little faster than DA:O - in general. Save some very specific 2H animations I thought were comically slow. That's all really.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:48 .

[vocalemuse]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

My thoughts on it was that it was just unfinished, at least in the quest lines and such at higher levels. Too gappy. Otherwise I loved it. Way better MMO than anything else I've played.

More like another case of a Vanguard or Warhammer release, except AoC being worse than WAR.

Okay. THAT I definitely disagree with. But I guess it is just a matter of opinion.

Lmao, you were obviously not there for AoC's launch then. xD

Anyway... no more thread derailment! *flees*

I actually purchased it on the release day =/

Granted, it was that  afternoon... and I didn't play until the next day... but still. I was there.

Wow. Then yeah, I definitely don't agree with you there.

AoC was way, WAY worse than WAR at launch... and WAR was pretty awful.

Modifié par vocalemuse, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:49 .

[ShrinkingFish]

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Erm, but I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today. 

How fit were the two men? and how accustomed were they to weilding their blades? Just asking. Because that plays a big role.

They knew what they were doing, but they weren't 'omg ripped' or skinny beanpoles. Normal average weight men.

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

[upsettingshorts]

That's actually a big problem with the MMO business model. A poor launch is death. It never recovers in the eyes of the public or the media. It's over, right then. It's a huge risk/reward model. I hope Bioware was paying attention.

Even if people don't think Conan is good now, that's fine and it's purely subjective, the fact is it's much different now. But it won't matter because they can't recover from the hole they dug themselves. Same thing's happening to Star Trek Online.

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with
its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

Indeed, it's not even so much strength as muscle memory - just like any other physical activity.  Once your body is familiar with the moves it can execute them more swiftly without such deliberate motions.  Hence why pro athletes are able to make complicated, difficult things look easy.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:54 .

[ShrinkingFish]

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

My thoughts on it was that it was just unfinished, at least in the quest lines and such at higher levels. Too gappy. Otherwise I loved it. Way better MMO than anything else I've played.

More like another case of a Vanguard or Warhammer release, except AoC being worse than WAR.

Okay. THAT I definitely disagree with. But I guess it is just a matter of opinion.

Lmao, you were obviously not there for AoC's launch then. xD

Anyway... no more thread derailment! *flees*

I actually purchased it on the release day =/

Granted, it was that  afternoon... and I didn't play until the next day... but still. I was there.

Wow. Then yeah, I definitely don't agree with you there.

AoC was way, WAY worse than WAR at launch... and WAR was pretty awful.

Weird how opinions can differ, huh?

[slimgrin]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Erm, but I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today. 

How fit were the two men? and how accustomed were they to weilding their blades? Just asking. Because that plays a big role.

They knew what they were doing, but they weren't 'omg ripped' or skinny beanpoles. Normal average weight men.

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

So you're saying 2h weapons are faster than one handed weapons?

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:52 .

[vocalemuse]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

Actually having more muscle can make it more cumbersome, but even if not... should they be able to swing a 2H as fast as a one hand sword or mace or axe? Heck no. In most games you can't even really tell a difference in speed, I liked that in DAO you could see that difference for once.

[ShrinkingFish]

slimgrin wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...
As for the 2H swords... they should be slow. They're freaking huge claymores. Making them fast would be more ridiculous in my opinion. That to me is way more unrealistic.

I've encountered this view a few times and I think it is a very amusing one. It is very logical. It is also wrong.
The heaviest two-handed sword in the world is only about 1 kg (2 pounds) heavier than most one handed swords (not all, of course). They're also deceptively fast weapons. In fact a skilled user of a two-hander have to keep it moving as fast as a skilled user of daggers would have to use his daggers, due to how momentum and levers work. It's also the fact that since the weapon itself is your primary defence, so it must be between you and your opponent at all times. At all times you must be able to quickly move it to deflect or parry, or be able to completely shift the direction of the attack as a feint.

In short, two handed weapons are, realistically, some of the fastest weapons existing. By making them move fast, DA2 is actually taking a step towards the more realistic in that regard.

Erm, but I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today. 

How fit were the two men? and how accustomed were they to weilding their blades? Just asking. Because that plays a big role.

They knew what they were doing, but they weren't 'omg ripped' or skinny beanpoles. Normal average weight men.

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

So you're saying 2h weapons are faster than one handed weapons?

Still not saying that... No one has...

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...
So you're saying 2h weapons are faster than one handed weapons?

I think all either of us is saying is that 2H weapons can be wielded with much more speed and ferocity than was displayed by DA:O's animations.  That's all, really.

[Sir JK]

Slimgrin wrote...

Faster than a rapier? A Viking battle axe? A samurai sword?

Seems hard to believe.

About as fast actually (especially since katanas are one-and-a-half handers). You move the weapon as fast as you can without losing control of it or forgoign defence. There is no weapon that are used slower than that. This is because weapons are not strictly used for offense but the first and primary defence... if your weapon is slower than that of your opponent... then you're in big trouble. The larger your weapon the faster you have to be able to move it, or it will join you in the grave.

Erm, I have seen two men sparring in full armor with claymores and they were not fast. :/



I'm going to assume you're referencing Oriental blades like katanas and so forth. Granted the swing motion in DAO is slower than what I've seen IRL, it's still not as ridiculous to me as seeing a huge 2H sword being whirled around like a freaking baton in some of these games today.

No, I was primarily thinking about european weapons. I don't know about the two fellows you saw sparring, but I've seen twohanded blades (european) move so fast that you couldn't see anything but a blur. The only thing I've seen move faster were certain polearms... who were even bigger.

[ShrinkingFish]

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

Actually having more muscle can make it more cumbersome, but even if not... should they be able to swing a 2H as fast as a one hand sword or mace or axe? Heck no. In most games you can't even really tell a difference in speed, I liked that in DAO you could see that difference for once.

I never said more muscle. I said more fit. Big difference. Otherwise I agree.

It wont be faster than a one handed sword if the skill levels of the two combatants are equal. But the difference wont be that impressive either. After all, slower does not mean way slower.

[ShrinkingFish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
So you're saying 2h weapons are faster than one handed weapons?

I think all either of us is saying is that 2H weapons can be wielded with much more speed and ferocity than was displayed by DA:O's animations.  That's all, really.

Yup. That's it.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:55 .

[vocalemuse]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

Actually having more muscle can make it more cumbersome, but even if not... should they be able to swing a 2H as fast as a one hand sword or mace or axe? Heck no. In most games you can't even really tell a difference in speed, I liked that in DAO you could see that difference for once.

I never said more muscle. I said more fit. Big difference. Otherwise I agree.

It wont be faster than a one handed sword if the skill levels of the two combatants are equal. But the difference wont be that impressive either. After all, slower does not mean way slower.

Well, then both of these guys were fit by that standard.

It must just be me, but I didn't really see the motions as being that slow in the game. When they first bring the sword or mace or whatever up for the attack? Yeah, but once they brought it back down it progressed its speed naturally.

[ShrinkingFish]

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

vocalemuse wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I'd argue that a fit warrior who's body is accustomed to weilding such a weapon would be much more agile with its use. Not to insult whoever you saw fighting with them. But any actual weilding of such weapons can be assumed to be faster and cleaner than whatever it is they did.

Actually having more muscle can make it more cumbersome, but even if not... should they be able to swing a 2H as fast as a one hand sword or mace or axe? Heck no. In most games you can't even really tell a difference in speed, I liked that in DAO you could see that difference for once.

I never said more muscle. I said more fit. Big difference. Otherwise I agree.

It wont be faster than a one handed sword if the skill levels of the two combatants are equal. But the difference wont be that impressive either. After all, slower does not mean way slower.

Well, then both of these guys were fit by that standard.

It must just be me, but I didn't really see the motions as being that slow in the game. When they first bring the sword or mace or whatever up for the attack? Yeah, but once they brought it back down it progressed its speed naturally.

Yeah, that was my issue. The back swings took way too long. Not all the time, but still.

And I still think we're talking about different "fit"s. What I am really saying is that a warrior who wields the sword almost daily for however meany years he's been a warrior would be more fit to wield that sword effectively than those two guys.

[upsettingshorts]

vocalemuse wrote...
It must just be me, but I didn't really see the motions as being that slow in the game. When they first bring the sword or mace or whatever up for the attack? Yeah, but once they brought it back down it progressed its speed naturally.

Bringing the weapon up in preparation for the attack is part of the animation though.  Even if the eventual swing was more or less decent in terms of speed the fact it took the Warden an eternity to even get it up there was jarring to me.  I had to put my warrior in medium armor so I could constantly use cooldown abilities just so I didn't have to see that damn auto-attack animation anymore.  Most other animations were OK if a tad slow, save the infamous shuffling and some curiously long pauses resulting from being parried.

ShrinkingFish wrote...
And I still think we're talking about different "fit"s. What I am really saying is that a warrior who wields the sword almost daily for however meany years he's been a warrior would be more fit to wield that sword effectively than those two guys.

That's why I mentioned muscle memory and pro-athletes in an earlier post.  Basketball players can move while dribbling a ball with speed that people who - while otherwise fit and in shape - couldn't reproduce the same level of pace and deft control that someone who has spent their lives practicing can.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:04 .

[slimgrin]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
So you're saying 2h weapons are faster than one handed weapons?

I think all either of us is saying is that 2H weapons can be wielded with much more speed and ferocity than was displayed by DA:O's animations.  That's all, really.

Yup. That's it.

*face palm*

I think this much is obvious.

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...
*face palm*

I think this much is obvious.

Well, so did we.

[ShrinkingFish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's why I mentioned muscle memory and pro-athletes in an earlier post.  Basketball players can move and dribble a ball with speed that people who - while otherwise fit and in shape - couldn't reproduce the same level of pace and deft control that someone who has spent their lives practicing can.

Exactly what I mean.