202 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Had we not revamped the graphical system for DA2 (which we felt was very much needed)

You were wrong.

Not that cloaks are particular valuable to me, but DAO's graphics were wholly adequate.

In all fairness, the graphics of DAO were rated as somwhat lacking in reviews. So while they're adequate by your standards, this doesn't apperar to be universal opinion or even very popular one... as such, it can't be really said they're wrong.

[JrayM16]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Had we not revamped the graphical system for DA2 (which we felt was very much needed)

You were wrong.

Sylvius are you just tired of qualifying your opinions as such - which I would understand, or do you legitimately feel your views are representative of objective truth?

While your point doesn't win the argument(it is yet another logical fallacy) it is pointing out a serious flaw in most of Sylvius's argument.  I don't think there is even a logical fallacy for stating opinion as fact as it's such a basic cardinal sin of argument. 

All I would ask is that Sylvius phrase his posts to present his opinions as opinions, that would be fine.

[soteria]

Is it really necessary to caveat every statement of opinion with "in my opinion"? I think most of us here are adults that can tell the difference between fact and opinion. I'm pretty sure Sylvius is aware that a number of us had complaints about the graphics in DA:O. He disagrees. He is wrong.

[slimgrin]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Had we not revamped the graphical system for DA2 (which we felt was very much needed)

You were wrong.

Not that cloaks are particular valuable to me, but DAO's graphics were wholly adequate.

In all fairness, the graphics of DAO were rated as somwhat lacking in reviews. So while they're adequate by your standards, this doesn't apperar to be universal opinion or even very popular one... as such, it can't be really said they're wrong.

The graphics in DA are decent. In some cases, when depicting different textures like armor, brick, or flesh, they are done quite well, especially on the highest settings. What was needed was an aesthetic overhaul, and most of the design choices in DA2 I like.

However, graphical fidelity itself has taken a hit, at least in the latest trailer. They aren't even as good as Origins. They are downright bland. Hopefully Bioware's devotion to the pc platform will carry over from DA to DA2 and pc gamers won't be stuck with a bad case of consolitus in their game.

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:50 .

[upsettingshorts]

JrayM16 wrote...
While your point doesn't win the argument(it is yet another logical fallacy) it is pointing out a serious flaw in most of Sylvius's argument.  I don't think there is even a logical fallacy for stating opinion as fact as it's such a basic cardinal sin of argument.  .

I was asking a question not making an argument.  And you'd do well to read up on the limitations of throwing around the fallacy accusation.  This is not a formal setting, we are not Supreme Court Justices, and logic is not the alpha and omega of persuasive communication. 

soteria wrote...

Is it really necessary to caveat every statement of opinion with "in my opinion"? I think most of us here are adults that can tell the difference between fact and opinion.

Typically? No.  But Sylvius has a fun habit of surprising me and responding with a forceful argument on why yes, in fact, he is speaking of what he believes is objective truth.  So that's why I asked him.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[JrayM16]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
While your point doesn't win the argument(it is yet another logical fallacy) it is pointing out a serious flaw in most of Sylvius's argument.  I don't think there is even a logical fallacy for stating opinion as fact as it's such a basic cardinal sin of argument.  .

I was asking a question not making an argument.  And you'd do well to read up on the limitations of throwing around the fallacy accusations.  This is not a formal setting, we are not Supreme Court Justices, and logic is not the alpha and omega of persuasive communication. 

Whoa whoa.  I was on your side, I just felt like pointing that out because I've been on a logical fallacy kick the last few days and because concessions are the key to a good argument. 

[tmp7704]

slimgrin wrote...

However, graphical fidelity itself has taken a hit, at least in the latest trailer. They aren't even as good as Origins. They are downright bland.

Not sure about it, really -- since most of the trailer happens in Kirkwall, any comparison should be done to closest equivalent i.e. Denerim and well... i don't know if Denerim could be actually called better.

[upsettingshorts]

JrayM16 wrote...
I just felt like pointing that out because I've been on a logical fallacy kick the last few days

Yeah, it can be easy to get on those when you see how often they are employed in daily communication.  I'm aware of most of them and I use them, intentionally or unintentionally, all the time - because logic in of itself is somewhat limiting, especially on issues of opinion.  And that's what 90% of this forum talk is.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 octobre 2010 - 09:54 .

[JrayM16]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
I just felt like pointing that out because I've been on a logical fallacy kick the last few days

Yeah, it can be easy to get on those when you see how often they are employed in daily communication.  I'm aware of most of them and I use them, intentionally or unintentionally, all the time - because logic in of itself is somewhat limiting, especially on issues of opinion.  And that's what 90% of this forum talk is.

Now that is about the truest thing I've seen all day.

[AtreiyaN7]

soteria wrote...

Is it really necessary to caveat every statement of opinion with "in my opinion"? I think most of us here are adults that can tell the difference between fact and opinion. I'm pretty sure Sylvius is aware that a number of us had complaints about the graphics in DA:O. He disagrees. He is wrong.

Well, you know, Sylvius will jump on his debate opponents over the most minor thing, so I think it's only fair that be held accountable for not qualifying his statement with "in my opinion" - haha. Who knows, he might actually believe what he said was some sort of incontrovertible fact. In any case, I'm just having fun & waiting to see what happens next - if anything. At least he makes things, err, lively.

*munches popcorn*

[Nighteye2]

David Gaider wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...
That is crazy! lol! It really is that expensive to do? Some company out there needs to get creative and find a good, easier way to make them.  BTW, I am very glad you guys opted to upgrade the graphics. lol! I'll just leave it at that.

It's expensive to do properly, yes, because you either need a solution for cloth physics which covers the entire game or you'd need to combine cloak animations with every other animation you have (of which there are a lot). I'd think cloth physics would be an easier and more encompassing solution, but my view of it is pretty simplistic so I tend to trust the programmers who tell me there's more involved than I think.

Or you could just say we're lazy, as one poster above mentioned. Yeah, we were gonna but... nah. That would eat into our cheetos time.

Such a physics solution would be useful for a lot more, though. With physics you can use collision detection to avoid all clipping issues. Which would also make programming all the other animations easier.

[Marionetten]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Had we not revamped the graphical system for DA2 (which we felt was very much needed)

You were wrong.

Not that cloaks are particular valuable to me, but DAO's graphics were wholly adequate.

In all fairness, the graphics of DAO were rated as somwhat lacking in reviews. So while they're adequate by your standards, this doesn't apperar to be universal opinion or even very popular one... as such, it can't be really said they're wrong.

It's important to note that most if not all of those reviews focused on the console versions. The improperly optimized console versions. The PC version was wholly adequate visually barring some awkward animations.

[KcK]

soteria wrote...

Is it really necessary to caveat every statement of opinion with "in my opinion"? I think most of us here are adults that can tell the difference between fact and opinion...

You wish 

[tmp7704]

Marionetten wrote...

It's important to note that most if not all of those reviews focused on the console versions. The improperly optimized console versions. The PC version was wholly adequate visually barring some awkward animations.

Possible, but it doesn't change the fact that there was some dissatisfaction with at least some version(s) of the game, and as such the decision to address these concerns wouldn't necessarily be wrong?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I'd rather that physics be added to hair than cloaks be included, personally. Nothing against the bald/buzz-cut characters out there, but I like to see those tresses blowing in the wind or responding to the fact that a character is lying down rather than standing up. Ah, vanity.



Anyway, cloaks are a known hazard to those who would be heroes. Haven't you seen 'The Incredibles'? No capes!

[Zhijn]

Just make a hoody helmet that ties in with the armor like cloth, but you dont see the cloth because its underneat the armor. Without the sash/superman cloak.. Uhhh right i need a nap or 8!.

[KLUME777]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I'd rather that physics be added to hair than cloaks be included, personally. Nothing against the bald/buzz-cut characters out there, but I like to see those tresses blowing in the wind or responding to the fact that a character is lying down rather than standing up. Ah, vanity.

Anyway, cloaks are a known hazard to those who would be heroes. Haven't you seen 'The Incredibles'? No capes!

The incredibles dont have capes for probably the same reason as why DAO doesnt have cloaks - It would be too hard and long to make, lol.

And the hair physics would be almost the same as cape physics, so you could have both.

Modifié par KLUME777, 30 octobre 2010 - 03:34 .

[The_11thDoctor]

This sums up my thoughts in picture form.

PS: Don't judge my art off this...

Modifié par aang001, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:38 .

[vania z]

Devs, why don't you use physx cloaks? As I recall, you already used physx in ME, ME2, DAO. GPU simulated physics would be nice, imo

[Taura-Tierno]

I'd rather have no cloaks than bad cloaks. There are way too many games that have horrible cloak implementations. Shoulders, arms and weapons "phasing" through the cloak, people walking through the cloaks, cloaks flapping through walls, trees, etc ... If the cloaks cannot be done perfectly (or at as close as possible), I'd much rather have no cloaks at all, and by that having one less element to annoy me and disturb the experience of the game - because cloaks that don't look good are extremely annoying.

[AnimaTempli101]

David Gaider wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...
That is crazy! lol! It really is that expensive to do? Some company out there needs to get creative and find a good, easier way to make them.  BTW, I am very glad you guys opted to upgrade the graphics. lol! I'll just leave it at that.

It's expensive to do properly, yes, because you either need a solution for cloth physics which covers the entire game or you'd need to combine cloak animations with every other animation you have (of which there are a lot). *snip*

The man has a point. In DW6 (yes Dynasty Warriors, what? Find me another game where I can slaughter literally thousnads of NPCs in fifteen minutes and I'l play it) they had a few characters with cloaks (mainly generals) and every time they did an extravagant move (triple backflip while spinning swords like rotor blades, great fun) or even just riding their horse their cloak would wrap around them in odd ways, which looked terrible. I don't know the budget of DW6 but the point still stands, it's very hard to do well.

So yeah, nice to have, hard to implement.  

[AlanC9]

Lyssistr wrote...
That's exactly what I'd like to see as well, a fixed top-down view and more focus on density. People have been saying for all these years that isometric is "dead" and there comes Blizzard making Diablo III in isometric perspective, while focusing on stuff that made the diablo franchise great. Why can't we get an isometric DA with all the stuff that made BG II great in the DA universe.

There was stuff that made Diablo great?

More seriously, what exactly is missing from DAO that BG2 had?

[upsettingshorts]

Isometric Camera nowhere near as good as the free Total War-style camera.

Why restrict yourself to one camera angle in a modern, 3D game? What's the benefit?

* Limited by view distance, so you can't just pan the camera all the way over to the other side of the map and see how your enemy is deployed, but once they're in range of your skirmishers you can see them without restriction. Check a Youtube video for Total War to see what I mean.

AlanC9 wrote...
There was stuff that made Diablo great?

Click click click click click click click click click click click.

But seriously, I can think of one thing:

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius are you just tired of qualifying your opinions as such - which I would understand, or do you legitimately feel your views are representative of objective truth?

I fail to see what value higher quality graphics would provide.  I also question whether the graphics can actually be higher quality overall given the limitations of using exactly the same console hardware for the second game.

It's not like with a PC game where they can take advantage of newer hardware with every release.  They're stuck with exactly the same graphical limitations they had last time.

In order to improve one area - say, character models - I think they'll have to give back on something else (perhaps the poly-counts of environments).

And that's not an improvement.  That's a trade-off.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

logic is not the alpha and omega of persuasive communication.

I disagree.