202 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

It's traditional to explain why you disagree with something, you know.

[AlanC9]

Marionetten wrote...
It's important to note that most if not all of those reviews focused on the console versions. The improperly optimized console versions. The PC version was wholly adequate visually barring some awkward animations.

I don't check you on this. What I read was that the graphics were "uninspired." Not a technical problem, a design problem.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I disagree.

Too bad.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I disagree.

Too bad.

I'm familiar with them.  But of the three, only logos (logic) can work on a rational audience.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 31 octobre 2010 - 12:24 .

[soteria]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I disagree.

Too bad.

I'm familiar with them.  But of the three, only logos (logic) can work on a rational audience.

That's not really true.  An expert on a particular subject can appeal to authority rather than give a logical explanation.  If my dad, a mechanic, tells me that the alternator in my car is going bad and needs to be fixed, I don't need him to give me some sort of reasoned argument.  Logic can even have a negative effect if it is working from incomplete or innaccruate data.

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed, an appeal to authority is only problematic if the authority is assumed to be infallible, as opposed to simply being more authoritative.

Edit: And since 90% of the time on this board we're talking about and trying to get others to understand our opinions, pathos is part and parcel of the debate.  

Edit 2: Also, I'd love to see an example of a purely rational audience.  I've yet to encounter one aside from Data on Star Trek, and he's not real.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:01 .

[Sir JK]

Not to mention that if everything but logic is stripped out, the information often becomes overwhelming, hard to grasp or just plain boring. Metaphors, analogies, enthusiasm and passion sometimes goes far longer to explain something than logic does. That's why it's so rewarding to speak to academics who love their field of study about just that field, through their interest they pinpoint what's important. What makes it special.

Like all things, the best is always a combination.

[Maria Caliban]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's traditional to explain why you disagree with something, you know.

Not for Sylvius, no. Oh, sometimes he does it, but sometimes he doesn't.

[Maria Caliban]

soteria wrote...

Is it really necessary to caveat every statement of opinion with "in my opinion"?

It probably depends on how contentious the discussion or your viewpoint will be.

Strawberry ice cream is the best. <- Unlikely to bother anyone.
Leliana is far sexier than Morrigan. <- Obviously an opinion, but it might be good to note it as such.
Players should have no control over their companions' inventory or actions in combat. <- Should definitely mark this as an opinion, though you'll still have an argument on your hands.

[NoAngel89]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Whatever happened to cloaks?
 

 Unless I am mistaken Kotor 2 was the last game of this type to have cloaks. I don't recall them being in anything else(at least off the top of my head). Why they weren't in DAO is beyond me. Are they in Awakening? I haven't played that one yet. If not.....GET ON THE BALL BIOWARE!!!  Add some bad ass cloaks, capes, cowls, etc, etc for DA2.

First of all Kotor2 was not made by Bioware it was Obsidian Entertainment. And Second the cloaks in that game was not very moving or flowing like actually cloaks because there wasn't a physics engine for it. And Third Awakening do not have cloaks and so on. If they were to add cloaks now they were be stiff and probably move along with the legs of the character then flow and float like a cloak. For simple stuff like that theres alot more that goes into it, then we actually think and can take alot of memory and work for a PC if its not up for the challenge. Thats why I like DA. They keep it simple and focus on the things thats really important in a game. Story and game play. Not so much on the aesthetics of the game. Sure people like to play pretty games, but if its not deep and engaging then whats the point. Maybe someday. Plus from the looks of the game I like it. It looks like bioware has taken the time to really make their character look good. Face design I mean. I rather have that then cloaks

Modifié par NoAngel89, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:33 .

[KLUME777]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius are you just tired of qualifying your opinions as such - which I would understand, or do you legitimately feel your views are representative of objective truth?

I fail to see what value higher quality graphics would provide.  I also question whether the graphics can actually be higher quality overall given the limitations of using exactly the same console hardware for the second game.

It's not like with a PC game where they can take advantage of newer hardware with every release.  They're stuck with exactly the same graphical limitations they had last time.

In order to improve one area - say, character models - I think they'll have to give back on something else (perhaps the poly-counts of environments).

And that's not an improvement.  That's a trade-off.

:blink:If your going by that insane logic, then Mass Effect 2 should look the same as Mass Effect 1? Or Uncharted 2 should look the same as Uncharted 1? But they dont, because developers havent used the full potential of the console.

[KLUME777]

NoAngel89 wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Whatever happened to cloaks?
 

 Unless I am mistaken Kotor 2 was the last game of this type to have cloaks. I don't recall them being in anything else(at least off the top of my head). Why they weren't in DAO is beyond me. Are they in Awakening? I haven't played that one yet. If not.....GET ON THE BALL BIOWARE!!!  Add some bad ass cloaks, capes, cowls, etc, etc for DA2.

First of all Kotor2 was not made by Bioware it was Obsidian Entertainment. And Second the cloaks in that game was not very moving or flowing like actually cloaks because there wasn't a physics engine for it. And Third Awakening do not have cloaks and so on. If they were to add cloaks now they were be stiff and probably move along with the legs of the character then flow and float like a cloak. For simple stuff like that theres alot more that goes into it, then we actually think and can take alot of memory and work for a PC if its not up for the challenge. Thats why I like DA. They keep it simple and focus on the things thats really important in a game. Story and game play. Not so much on the aesthetics of the game. Sure people like to play pretty games, but if its not deep and engaging then whats the point. Maybe someday. Plus from the looks of the game I like it. It looks like bioware has taken the time to really make their character look good. Face design I mean. I rather have that then cloaks

I liked KOTOR 2's cloaks, and would be perfectly fine if DA2 had cloaks the were pre'made animations and not physics. And it doesnt matter if it was made by a different company, Bioware still needs to include some bloody cloakes!

[upsettingshorts]

I always like the cloak threads. Age of Conan had them and so many people wore them I always hid mine, partly because I thought most of my armors looked much cooler without a cloak, and partly to stand out as the guy who didn't show his.

[Thalorin1919]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

How many soldiers, today and in the past, fought in cloaks or capes? They would really get in the way.

Don't look at it realistically.

Cloaks tend to be a big thing in fantasy, due to the fact they just look 'cool' and sometimes even 'epic'.


Jaime Lannister was the biggest badass in Westeros when fighting with a sword, and he wore a cloak or cape or whatever.

[Dave of Canada]

Cloaks make sense in context. If they go to a frigid mountain and they have cloaks, I'd understand completely. However, wearing cloaks while standing near a pool of lava or something? I'd just cry.

[Harid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cloaks make sense in context. If they go to a frigid mountain and they have cloaks, I'd understand completely. However, wearing cloaks while standing near a pool of lava or something? I'd just cry.

Funny that standing near a pool of lava, at least, in the way every video game ever does it, would kill you too.

I wish games did weather dependant gear but. . .no one seems to care.

Modifié par Harid, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

Harid wrote...

Funny that standing near a pool of lava, at least, in the way every video game ever does it, would kill you too.

I meant more like in Orzammar / Deep Roads, where the lava iis close enough to probably make it really hot. Not physically standing beside it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:13 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cloaks make sense in context. If they go to a frigid mountain and they have cloaks, I'd understand completely. However, wearing cloaks while standing near a pool of lava or something? I'd just cry.

The right sort of clothing is good protection against extreme ambient heat. A wool cloak might sound uncomfortable in a hot area, but IRL it's better protection than just your skin (which will blister, cook and melt).

I don't expect games to go into this much detail, however. People generally want cloaks in games for the cool wardrobe factor, not practicality, or they'd be tripping over them or getting yanked off their feet every time there was combat.

[soteria]

I don't expect games to go into this much detail, however. People generally want cloaks in games for the cool wardrobe factor, not practicality, or they'd be tripping over them or getting yanked off their feet every time there was combat.

In Mistborn, I always rolled my eyes a bit at the idea of people performing highly acrobatic combat wearing these fluttering cloaks, but it did make for a cool image.

It probably depends on how contentious the discussion or your viewpoint will be.

True.  Tacking the "IMO" on there does somewhat soften a statement--probably not the effect Sylvius was looking for, though.

Modifié par soteria, 31 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[KLUME777]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

How many soldiers, today and in the past, fought in cloaks or capes? They would really get in the way.

Don't look at it realistically.

Cloaks tend to be a big thing in fantasy, due to the fact they just look 'cool' and sometimes even 'epic'.


Jaime Lannister was the biggest badass in Westeros when fighting with a sword, and he wore a cloak or cape or whatever.

Ummm....Mages, people? The mad cloaks are for Mages. This isnt Assasins Creed 2, i dont want capes for warriors and rogues, i want cloaks for mages. Theres a difference between a cloak/robe and a cape.

I like KotOR 2's style.

[NoAngel89]

KLUME777 wrote...

NoAngel89 wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Whatever happened to cloaks?
 

 Unless I am mistaken Kotor 2 was the last game of this type to have cloaks. I don't recall them being in anything else(at least off the top of my head). Why they weren't in DAO is beyond me. Are they in Awakening? I haven't played that one yet. If not.....GET ON THE BALL BIOWARE!!!  Add some bad ass cloaks, capes, cowls, etc, etc for DA2.

First of all Kotor2 was not made by Bioware it was Obsidian Entertainment. And Second the cloaks in that game was not very moving or flowing like actually cloaks because there wasn't a physics engine for it. And Third Awakening do not have cloaks and so on. If they were to add cloaks now they were be stiff and probably move along with the legs of the character then flow and float like a cloak. For simple stuff like that theres alot more that goes into it, then we actually think and can take alot of memory and work for a PC if its not up for the challenge. Thats why I like DA. They keep it simple and focus on the things thats really important in a game. Story and game play. Not so much on the aesthetics of the game. Sure people like to play pretty games, but if its not deep and engaging then whats the point. Maybe someday. Plus from the looks of the game I like it. It looks like bioware has taken the time to really make their character look good. Face design I mean. I rather have that then cloaks

I liked KOTOR 2's cloaks, and would be perfectly fine if DA2 had cloaks the were pre'made animations and not physics. And it doesnt matter if it was made by a different company, Bioware still needs to include some bloody cloakes!

well you can't really hold it against them (bioware) for the work of another company. Animation  probably, but the cloaks I'm talking about are from stuff like Assassin Creed. Stuff like that. Plus the cloaks & robes in Kotor2 just didn't look natural. It would make the game look awkward in this day and age of games. Still stand on what I said before, the cloaks in Kotor2 werent any good. Still for heroes, idk know why cloaks would be nessary, maybe a cool slash would be interesting to see.

Modifié par NoAngel89, 31 octobre 2010 - 11:41 .

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I disagree.

Too bad.

I'm familiar with them.  But of the three, only logos (logic) can work on a rational audience.

However, I feel that a fully rational audience is something that seldom, if ever, exists.  Ethos and pathos are extremely effective when used in the right situation, as is logos.  I can tell you'd be the the kind of guy who'd be more swayed by logos, but alot of people are suckers for a poathos-heavy argument, and ethos is good when talking about the speaker's credibility.  All three need to be used in conjunction to make a truly convincing argument.

[Bamsemisbruker]

I hate cloaks, maybe its due to wow's cloaks were really horrible. Better showing the nice armor i'd say

[Sylvius the Mad]

JrayM16 wrote...

I can tell you'd be the the kind of guy who'd be more swayed by logos, but alot of people are suckers for a pathos-heavy argument,

Yes they are.

I'm not sure I count those people as human.

and ethos is good when talking about the speaker's credibility.

Even if the speaker is blatantly hypocritical on the issue he's discussing, that has no relevance to merits of his argument.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

and ethos is good when talking about the speaker's credibility.

Even if the speaker is blatantly hypocritical on the issue he's discussing, that has no relevance to merits of his argument.

Whether someone knows what they're talking about or not should influence your opinion on what they say.

For example, imagine I say:
1) The USA has 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's prison population,
2) The increase in the number of prisons and prisoners hasn't led to a decrease in crime,
3) The longer someone stays in prison, the longer it takes for them to reintegrate into society and become a productive member again, and
4) The modern, American legal system jails people for longer periods and for more trivial crimes than modern Europe or pre-1970's American legal system.

Before you look at whatever argument I'm making based on this information, it's important to ask "Does Maria know what she's talking about?" Because if I'm just pulling data out of my backside or highly questionable sources, my argument is already suffering.

Yes, you can attempt to find all this information on your own, but it's not as simple as a google search. It's going to take you a fair amount of time and energy, and you're not going to want to do that for every argument you come across.

Ethos isn't logical, but it is rational from an economic perspective as you don't have the time or ability to become an expert in every subject that concerns you, meaning others can speak from knowledge and understanding you don't have.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:46 .